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A Boy and His Guns
#1
So I was curious, CotH community.

In the World of Warcraft, there has (of course) been technological advances as far as guns are concerned. There are countless guns to use in game in the Ranged slot.

But I wonder....how far does this advance come? What is able to be ICly used?

I've seen multiple people use flintlock pistols. I can see a big large rifle being able to function, but do we figure we've got the technology, ICly, to have a carry-around gun such as a holstered flintlock pistol?
What about a bazooka?
Where are the boundaries drawn for carry-on firearms?

Let the imagination wander, and picture the oddest gun you can see mounted across a goblin or dwarf's back (that you'd be ICly okay with).
[Image: 4ab673a110e5324a7acf57e330a6c8eb.jpg]
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#2
Goodness it's like you made a thread just for me. Hug Well WoW seems to set conflicting examples with its technology. The gnomes and dwarves have tanks and fighter-bombers with all variety of cannon and missiles but most of what we see ingame does appear to be flintlock.

For a period in time I'd say the 1860s to 90s are good to look at. You've got the self-contained cartridge becoming popular but a majority of people still using muzzle loaders. Things like machine guns tend to be big and therefore only fitted to the techology level jump of tanks and aircraft.

Your best bet would be either a percussion cap or standard self-contained cartridge revolver. Flintlock somehow seems too oldschool for WoW.

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#3
My character Sanot actually uses a bolt-action sniper rifle and a twin pair of magnum .45 revolvers. Just sayin'.
Do you have what it takes to join the Fighting Blues?
Do you have what it takes to defend your homeland?
Will you stand up in defense of the innocent? The weak?
Will you stand up in defense of Justice and the Law?

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRVE3uy8TjirssygDEKMi2...Ia13_WYQpw]



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#4
I have a revolver action rifle on one character and a clip-load pistol.
“Fairy tales do not tell children that dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children that dragons can be killed.”
— G.K. Chesterton

Spoiler:
[Image: tumblr_n9hl98KKPd1r4fnslo1_500.gif]

Have a puppy Ruby and a nice day.
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#5
There's already some level of consensus on this, and that's that guns are expensive. Like, if your character's not ICly wealthy and not in a military, please, please don't be running around with (anything that isn't a breech-loaded) guns knocking every guy in plate on their bum.

This is one of the many things where it's impossible to pick the pieces up, because Blizzard's decided that 'they both work'. Even though guns revolutionised combat in basically every way, we've got people with swords hitting people with shotguns, and so on. Realism rarely (if at all) takes a part in WoW, but we have to use it when trying to rationalise our characters ingame, so there's got to be a meeting-point between all this, right?

I think the easiest way to tackle it is via item. Almost all the guns in game are one of these models:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=2508
http://www.wowhead.com/item=2508

It's big. It's muzzle-loaded. It takes ages to fire. These are real drawbacks that these weapons had in their conception, and the reason that (in real life, at least) the best tactic with guns was to just put a hell of a lot of people with them in a line and hope that more of the enemy's line fell over before you. I'm not big on telling people what to do when they RP, but it's just the fact of the matter when I point out that:

http://www.wowhead.com/item=20722
http://www.wowhead.com/item=28581
http://www.wowhead.com/item=29949
http://www.wowhead.com/item=32325
http://www.wowhead.com/item=44504
http://www.wowhead.com/item=61354

Are really not indicative of normality at all. S' far as my opinion's concerned, it's really rude for everybody around you if you parade a six-barrel shooter with intricate rifling and fel-infused bullets. We can only go by OOC stuff when it comes to guns, and considering 4/5 of the guns in WoW are either primitive muskets or based around primitive muskets (with guns like http://www.wowhead.com/item=11629 just being a musket with a big scope, and http://www.wowhead.com/item=18855 just being the same musket... Just absolutely covered in Alliance doodads), you can assume that any of the custom-modelled guns would break into the thousands of gold territory - to the point that breaking it would probably cost you a house.

On an IC level, and ignoring the fact that WoW's just a conglomerate of technologies, I think the best explanation as to why guns haven't become the best thing since ... guns, are because 1) magic and 2) they're really not that great. As far as magic goes, it's not only been around longer but it can do many things that guns do without the drawbacks - a mage can hurt someone far away from him with fire and ice, but it takes a lot of training. A gun provides the ability for any ordinary Joe to try and cause damage outside of his immediate punch-o-sphere (a ordinary Joe's primary combat range) - but his gun is a recalcitrant machine, taking anywhere from half a minute to eight seconds (with the latter being under a heavily disciplined environment with lots of angry people shouting at him).

At the end of the day, I dunno. We have to realise that a lot of the 'cool' guns in WoW simply are there to be cool, and have zero basis in lore outside of 'Gnomes made them', in which case it's excusable because, well, Gnomes are Gnomes - but I still don't think they'd have machine guns and rapid-fire pistols except on their planes.

That's my thoughts. Seriously, please don't roll a 'sniper' with a Wolfslayer.




Move him into the sun—
Gently its touch awoke him once,
At home, whispering of fields half-sown.
Always it woke him, even in France,
Until this morning and this snow.
If anything might rouse him now
The kind old sun will know.

Think how it wakes the seeds,—
Woke, once, the clays of a cold star.
Are limbs, so dear-achieved, are sides,
Full-nerved—still warm—too hard to stir?
Was it for this the clay grew tall?
—O what made fatuous sunbeams toil
To break earth’s sleep at all?
[Image: 62675bf4fd.jpg] [Image: 0e7357dcfe.jpg]
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#6
I will toss this out. Sadly I don't have the links as you do Maulbane, but many swords are the primitive stone ones. But that doesn't mean katana's made from a complicated process of folding steel aren't possible, or extremely expensive. Asides, in a world wracked by war, wouldn't you think Gnomes -and- goblins would make these weapons as cheap as possible for the sake of soldiers? (Well, maybe just the gnomes..)
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#7
(08-12-2013, 01:31 AM)Kage Wrote: I will toss this out. Sadly I don't have the links as you do Maulbane, but many swords are the primitive stone ones. But that doesn't mean katana's made from a complicated process of folding steel aren't possible, or extremely expensive. Asides, in a world wracked by war, wouldn't you think Gnomes -and- goblins would make these weapons as cheap as possible for the sake of soldiers? (Well, maybe just the gnomes..)

Nej! The vast majority of swords are like the gladius-style shortsword or various styles like like the basic cutlass, rapier, longsword and falchion models, which most green and blue items are based on. I do know what you're talking about with the primitive sword, though, but I think that model's mostly used with trolls and poorer Human groups.

I'm not gonna derail the points with too much IRL logic-making because real-life reasoning can only play so much into a world that, well, the writers don't really give much respect to a lot of the time. There are katanas in WoW, but I assume they're far cheaper here than they'd have been in the land of the rising sun - since one of the strongest reasons their swords were so thoroughly folded was to counteract the poor quality of their raw steel (of course, the other benefits in themselves were worth it)

But I think the problem here is that people are viewing guns as something normal, when we've got no reason to believe they've existed since even the first war - there were flying machines (unarmed, though - no AA machine guns) and submarines in the second war, though, so we can only guess (as hard as it is to guess from gameplay alone) as to when guns actually came around. The RPG does give some insight, but, like almost everything, it's been decanonised. Despite that I'mma quote it.

Quote:Firearms are a relatively new dwarven invention. Despite the dangers of dealing with volatile explosives, dwarves are fascinated by the possibilities.
Quote:Despite the more "advanced" names used for many of the guns in-game, they are irrelevant and still belong to the three gun groups below.

Which is followed by the Blunderbuss, Flintlock pistol and Long Rifle, all three of which I'd like to think fall in line with my musings on guns! Then again, decanonised, so.

The point stands, at any rate, that guns are new - swordsmithing and metallurgy both have been around for... Well, Elves were making swords something like ten thousand years ago, so it's a tossup between an odd... Twenty-five years or so for guns and 10,000+ to get swords as cutty as possible. I'd say at this point, swordsmithing is as perfect as it can get (ignoring silly enchantments and infusing it with the blood of the bunny-queen Hoppsies to give it +310 grass-chewing), whereas guns are, well, new, despite what a lot of epic/legendary gun items would try and tell you.

As far as Gnomes go, I don't really believe they're the best people to go for guns, either - they're in their best element when they're experimenting, rather than the more metal-and-wood based art of gun-making. They're the people that I expect to have crazy guns, but even then I don't think we're at the point of handheld machine guns and modern-era sniper rifles - probably variations of existing guns, like the Gnomish Special Forces' pistols that they carried around during the guild's heyday, or new ideas for projectiles/firin' mechanisms. Goblins... I'm sure they've got tech up their sleeves, but it'd be hidden deep within the Trade Princes' vaults. I can only assume their gun exports cost a hell of a lot of money.




Move him into the sun—
Gently its touch awoke him once,
At home, whispering of fields half-sown.
Always it woke him, even in France,
Until this morning and this snow.
If anything might rouse him now
The kind old sun will know.

Think how it wakes the seeds,—
Woke, once, the clays of a cold star.
Are limbs, so dear-achieved, are sides,
Full-nerved—still warm—too hard to stir?
Was it for this the clay grew tall?
—O what made fatuous sunbeams toil
To break earth’s sleep at all?
[Image: 62675bf4fd.jpg] [Image: 0e7357dcfe.jpg]
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#8
I don't know the answers to any of these questions, save for one...

(08-11-2013, 09:08 PM)Valicor Wrote: What about a bazooka?

I saw a rocket launcher used in a RP event once led by Rigley. It was a great big pit fight and one of the fighters was given a rocket launcher to combat a devilsaur while sheep fell from the sky.

Spoiler:
NEEDLESS TO SAY IT WAS THE COOLEST THING I'VE EVER SEEN AIHISDNJANDKLAFGHFA
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#9
I think people over-complicate this and try too hard to get to brass tacks with "What's allowable/what's not allowable."

Katanas for example? Have you counted how many different katana models are in game? There's over a dozen, so, Blizzard expects that at some -point-, you'll pick one up and use it. From an OOC standpoint, sure it may seem a little out there to some, but really it's not that big of a deal. I've seen people say that Katanas are "Orc only", and used by blademasters---blademasters use their own special swords (Can't remember the name of them, but it's not a Katana. It's the large warblade--the whatchamacallit, if you will), and there's multiple, multiple artworks out there (Official artwork) of Pandaren using them. Not to mention how many human/gnome/leper/demon what have you NPC's that actually wield Katanas in the game.

Now that my katana rant is over---on to guns. Guns are a hard case thing here in WoW, because in -our- world, nothing stops a gun. BAM, gun goes off? Something's gonna screw up your day revolving around that gunshot.

In wow? Ehh. Wow is mystical in so many ways---that it's intentionally left vague how guns work, and what they each do. "Realism" is something I think can be overly silly to -always- have to include in everything you do. Non-glowy armor? That's up to your personal taste. It exists, and everything in WoW is mystical and magical, so their's enchants. Revolver rifles that shoot phlogstin grenades? Why the heck not? Flintlock? Sure, give yourself that pistol. Gatling gun strapped to the back of your caravan?

Well. Maybe. There's been stranger missions in WoW. There's certainly potential for -anything- to happen. One of the things you have to realize here--- we as a roleplaying community have not only a responsibility as what to say is "acceptable", but more so find a way to be "accepting" of what people want. Does it really chap people's hides to think we could have pistols or heavy-duty weapons? Really? In a world where someone could summon a flaming boulder of death onto you, or call forth a sexy, sexy demon to whip you into shape, or -literally- consume your soul for the sake of summoning said sexy, sexy demon?

I think in this situation, we go case by case like always, and determine from there---"is what this person asking really -that- bad?"



/endrant


Edit: Oh, and yeah. GATLING GUNS.


Spoiler:
[Image: desc_head_freemasons.jpg]

△Move along.△


△△
△△△
△△△△

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#10
(08-12-2013, 02:11 AM)Maulbane Wrote:
Quote:Firearms are a relatively new dwarven invention. Despite the dangers of dealing with volatile explosives, dwarves are fascinated by the possibilities.
Quote:Despite the more "advanced" names used for many of the guns in-game, they are irrelevant and still belong to the three gun groups below.

Which is followed by the Blunderbuss, Flintlock pistol and Long Rifle, all three of which I'd like to think fall in line with my musings on guns! Then again, decanonised, so.

As far as Gnomes go, I don't really believe they're the best people to go for guns, either - they're in their best element when they're experimenting, rather than the more metal-and-wood based art of gun-making. They're the people that I expect to have crazy guns, but even then I don't think we're at the point of handheld machine guns and modern-era sniper rifles - probably variations of existing guns, like the Gnomish Special Forces' pistols that they carried around during the guild's heyday, or new ideas for projectiles/firin' mechanisms. Goblins... I'm sure they've got tech up their sleeves, but it'd be hidden deep within the Trade Princes' vaults. I can only assume their gun exports cost a hell of a lot of money.

I'll just say a couple of things about this.

One, Dwarves have been using rifles and gunpowder and whathaveyou for atleast 15-20 years now. Give or take.

Two, when in War (which the world never seems to stop being in) technology is advanced much faster than normal. This is true for both WoW and Real Life.

So just because most guns you see are blunderbusses or hand-cannons, that doesn't necessarily mean that's all there is. I generally like to assume that, by this point in time for WoW, bolt-action rifles and revolvers are becoming more and more popular and easy to get. Yes there are the huge steam weapons, fel infused mini-cannons, and whatnot, but most of the game is filled with sensible weaponry.

And on to the subject of armor...


In Real Life guns ended the need for armor because it did very little to stop a metal ball from ripping through and tearing up your insides. Now, WoW has stronger materials than Steel. While Steel might be a common armor for basic soldiers (let's be honest, how many of your characters are 'basic soldiers'?
Spoiler:
Keep your hands down, Stormwind Army. <3
Most armors, even leather, are probably tougher than we could ever imagine IRL. Thorium, Adamantite, Saronite, etc... There is no range as to how strong these materials are other than the fact that we know they are better than steel. That being said, someone could also enchant steel armor to be resistant to other forms of attacks. The possibilities are endless. Hell most classes use magic, including warriors (Rage Magic), that could very well deflect or outright stop a bullet in mid-air.

More or less.
Do you have what it takes to join the Fighting Blues?
Do you have what it takes to defend your homeland?
Will you stand up in defense of the innocent? The weak?
Will you stand up in defense of Justice and the Law?

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRVE3uy8TjirssygDEKMi2...Ia13_WYQpw]



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#11
Thoradin's right. Even "Light" clothing is strengthened magically, mageweave, felweave, frostweave. The strength there is something that we cannot measure either. I mean, think about this--- you know the idea of mythril from lord of the rings? How it stopped a troll from impaling Frodo? Good, now imagine -everyone- wearing something like that or better.

Think the armor could stop a gunshot?
[Image: desc_head_freemasons.jpg]

△Move along.△


△△
△△△
△△△△

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#12
Granted, Rensin, this would be where there are bullets made of stronger materials as well. However that is where I things would start to get more and more expensive.

Enchanting your Thorium bullets with some form of fire spell or something in order to reach maximum penetration. That would drive the bill up some degree.
Do you have what it takes to join the Fighting Blues?
Do you have what it takes to defend your homeland?
Will you stand up in defense of the innocent? The weak?
Will you stand up in defense of Justice and the Law?

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRVE3uy8TjirssygDEKMi2...Ia13_WYQpw]



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#13
(08-12-2013, 09:55 AM)Thoradin Wrote:
(08-12-2013, 02:11 AM)Maulbane Wrote:
Quote:Firearms are a relatively new dwarven invention. Despite the dangers of dealing with volatile explosives, dwarves are fascinated by the possibilities.
Quote:Despite the more "advanced" names used for many of the guns in-game, they are irrelevant and still belong to the three gun groups below.

Which is followed by the Blunderbuss, Flintlock pistol and Long Rifle, all three of which I'd like to think fall in line with my musings on guns! Then again, decanonised, so.

As far as Gnomes go, I don't really believe they're the best people to go for guns, either - they're in their best element when they're experimenting, rather than the more metal-and-wood based art of gun-making. They're the people that I expect to have crazy guns, but even then I don't think we're at the point of handheld machine guns and modern-era sniper rifles - probably variations of existing guns, like the Gnomish Special Forces' pistols that they carried around during the guild's heyday, or new ideas for projectiles/firin' mechanisms. Goblins... I'm sure they've got tech up their sleeves, but it'd be hidden deep within the Trade Princes' vaults. I can only assume their gun exports cost a hell of a lot of money.

I'll just say a couple of things about this.

One, Dwarves have been using rifles and gunpowder and whathaveyou for atleast 15-20 years now. Give or take.

Two, when in War (which the world never seems to stop being in) technology is advanced much faster than normal. This is true for both WoW and Real Life.

So just because most guns you see are blunderbusses or hand-cannons, that doesn't necessarily mean that's all there is. I generally like to assume that, by this point in time for WoW, bolt-action rifles and revolvers are becoming more and more popular and easy to get. Yes there are the huge steam weapons, fel infused mini-cannons, and whatnot, but most of the game is filled with sensible weaponry.

And on to the subject of armor...


In Real Life guns ended the need for armor because it did very little to stop a metal ball from ripping through and tearing up your insides. Now, WoW has stronger materials than Steel. While Steel might be a common armor for basic soldiers (let's be honest, how many of your characters are 'basic soldiers'?
Spoiler:
Keep your hands down, Stormwind Army. <3
Most armors, even leather, are probably tougher than we could ever imagine IRL. Thorium, Adamantite, Saronite, etc... There is no range as to how strong these materials are other than the fact that we know they are better than steel. That being said, someone could also enchant steel armor to be resistant to other forms of attacks. The possibilities are endless. Hell most classes use magic, including warriors (Rage Magic), that could very well deflect or outright stop a bullet in mid-air.

More or less.

Well, this is true! But I'm talking about the perspective of non-heroes, who probably don't get enchantments, rare ores, etc. Of course adventurers and anybody who's the equivalent of a level 60-85 character would be wielding the stuff I mentioned in my post, but the average guy isn't gonna have magically-infused clothing or sniper rifles. Least, not yet. A lot of characters aren't average guys, but that kinda stuff's designed for taking down rude dudes with 'tudes (like, the biggest 'tudes), and I dunno why anybody who spends most of their time hanging around peaceful places would need anything like it.

I just like to type a lot, a lot - if anything thinks I'm being argumentative just for the sake of it. I hope it doesn't seem that way!




Move him into the sun—
Gently its touch awoke him once,
At home, whispering of fields half-sown.
Always it woke him, even in France,
Until this morning and this snow.
If anything might rouse him now
The kind old sun will know.

Think how it wakes the seeds,—
Woke, once, the clays of a cold star.
Are limbs, so dear-achieved, are sides,
Full-nerved—still warm—too hard to stir?
Was it for this the clay grew tall?
—O what made fatuous sunbeams toil
To break earth’s sleep at all?
[Image: 62675bf4fd.jpg] [Image: 0e7357dcfe.jpg]
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#14
Don't worry about it, Maul. I enjoy a good debate too.

But like I said, I think that bolt-action rifles are gaining some popularity, even among the regular folk. Cheap, easy to use, easy to reload, cheap ammunition. I do agree that they aren't ever going to buy enchantments or special materials (I would say ores or metals above Steel are rare. Some of them, yeah, but not all.)

So while Granny Fitzman might have her own bolt-action rifle with a few rounds, the best she'll kill is some barely armored bandit with less gold to his name than a bum in the City. Meanwhile Maximum-Hero-Supreme might have the Fel-infused mini-cannon that shoots out balls of pure enraged F**K YOU.

I like to believe we all fall somewhere in the middle.
Do you have what it takes to join the Fighting Blues?
Do you have what it takes to defend your homeland?
Will you stand up in defense of the innocent? The weak?
Will you stand up in defense of Justice and the Law?

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRVE3uy8TjirssygDEKMi2...Ia13_WYQpw]



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#15
(08-12-2013, 10:24 AM)Thoradin Wrote: Don't worry about it, Maul. I enjoy a good debate too.

But like I said, I think that bolt-action rifles are gaining some popularity, even among the regular folk. Cheap, easy to use, easy to reload, cheap ammunition. I do agree that they aren't ever going to buy enchantments or special materials (I would say ores or metals above Steel are rare. Some of them, yeah, but not all.)

So while Granny Fitzman might have her own bolt-action rifle with a few rounds, the best she'll kill is some barely armored bandit with less gold to his name than a bum in the City. Meanwhile Maximum-Hero-Supreme might have the Fel-infused mini-cannon that shoots out balls of pure enraged F**K YOU.

I like to believe we all fall somewhere in the middle.

This is basically along the lines of what I'm thinking - bolt-action rifles to me would be less common than muskets, though. I think accuracy and reloading would be the biggest things for me to balance guns, rather than the damage of bullets - I believe that, considering the metallurgy in WoW, bullets would stand a chance against armor. Maybe not outright poking through metal it but it'd definitely knock the wind out of a guy.

I didn't really address big stuff like handcannons - not as crappy as the ones in real life, but with the same size of boom - I'd like to think they'd be crazy hard to move around and reload, but they'd be able to turn a guy into mist. Little drawbacks and benefits like that, I feel, really don't hurt anybody when it comes to balance in RP.




Move him into the sun—
Gently its touch awoke him once,
At home, whispering of fields half-sown.
Always it woke him, even in France,
Until this morning and this snow.
If anything might rouse him now
The kind old sun will know.

Think how it wakes the seeds,—
Woke, once, the clays of a cold star.
Are limbs, so dear-achieved, are sides,
Full-nerved—still warm—too hard to stir?
Was it for this the clay grew tall?
—O what made fatuous sunbeams toil
To break earth’s sleep at all?
[Image: 62675bf4fd.jpg] [Image: 0e7357dcfe.jpg]
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