A Boy and His Guns

[Maulbane]

Players are the 1%, Maulbane.

Edit: Meaning, it should be alright for us to play ourselves as -beyond- average. Because the average sits at home or farms all day, waiting to be saved. Some people do play this character, but a majority of players are the "hero units".

Players are already way above the normal guy, but they're not lore characters. The guy you linked with the dual pistols was a (probably rich as feq) Gilnean noble who also managed to kill Sylvanas.

I dunno about the 'players are heroes' thing. As in, if you mean they're like gameplay heroes. Maybe in the past, but these days with the more flattened way variant classes are dealt with (as far as I've asked, prestige titles were removed because of misuse of power), there aren't as many superhero characters. There are already tons of powerful characters, but they generally don't have the crazy equipment that MMO heroes do. I don't see why anybody should unless they work for it ICly. That kinda thing goes way off the subject of just 'what happens in what' and starts to tread into the territory of degrading other peoples' RP, where everyone's showing off their crazy equipment and getting into drama because Y's giant felsteel axe is a few inches longer and Z's omegasword, infused with lord-knows-what instakilling enchantments.

I don't see what the benefit of having equipment that trumps everybody else without question, like semi-automatic pistols that can shoot dozens of times in a cone (if Godfrey's abilities section is anything to go by) really is, or how it helps RP in any way except giving people bigger bragging rights. It's just not fair on other people, IMO, and it forces other characters to have to try and match it or get turned into jelly.

But I've started to derail the subject with that, so I'll reright it and say that I'm not saying cool guns should be restricted or anything, but almost all the guns, even blue and purple ones, are variants of the trusty old musket. That should be built on instead of immediately turning to modern technology... Which, honestly, is incredibly boring compared to the creativity people could use when explaining how their gun is better than others.

[Harmonic]

I gotta share Flammos' sentiments here. If an engineer can make all that junk, would a pistol -really- be that difficult? Plus, I mean... it's already in game. Boss or not, it's been invented already by -someone-. It's not as if I'm saying we should all carry around our own personal Ashbringer. They're pistols.

Edit: And since when does this trump anyone? I think you're putting a bit too much onto the guns here. They're not that powerful, as has been shown in her more than once.

[Maulbane]

Yeah, but there's a reason guns are nerfed to heck in-lore outside of expansions making things crazier and crazier. Guns are pretty much the best thing to kill people ever made, and I'd be pretty pissed if my sword-wielding warrior (not that I have one, but eh) was shot twenty times in the chest by a character with two handheld, magazine-fed, highly-accurate pistols they just put together.

Edit: And since when does this trump anyone? I think you're putting a bit too much onto the guns here. They're not that powerful, as has been shown in her more than once.

I think this is my problem - they're not that powerful at the moment, but people seem to be slowly morphing them into the equivalent of modern-day pistols. Bullets are bullets, metal flying at you really fast is gonna kill you. I'm not sure if there's been a discussion otherwise, but it just doesn't seem logical for it not to. What balances guns out, IMO, is that it takes a while to get metal flying at people, and that metal's not really that likely to hit its target. It's like the whole Harry Potter vs Guns argument - I don't know how fast a Warcraft wizard's lips/staff/hand/whatever he does to cast a spell can move, but I'm sure that bullet's faster. Like, a trillion times faster.

[Harmonic]

Yeah, but there's a reason guns are nerfed to heck in-lore outside of expansions making things crazier and crazier. Guns are pretty much the best thing to kill people ever made, and I'd be pretty pissed if my sword-wielding warrior (not that I have one, but eh) was shot twenty times in the chest by a character with two handheld, magazine-fed, highly-accurate pistols they just put together.

You make it sound as if someone has a gun, that makes it okay for them to instantly kill you. And I'm not saying that these guns are magazine fed, or that they are highly accurate, or that this is suddenly the Matrix. I think you're reading -too- far into this, and taking it to a high extreme. What I'm saying is that there are pistols. Whether they are flintlock or whatever is up to interpretation. The automatic guns like the one in the video... well, that's strapped to a tank and is huge. What I'm saying, Maulbane, is that in regards to this, we should do like Flammos said----use items in game.

Pistols exist. As has been said, there's the Gnomish steam pistol (A weapon I think is still huge, and for good reason, it's not something that should be treated like an actual handgun, like the pistols that are carried by that boss.)

Obviously we should have -some- degree of realism. If someone walked in ICly with laser pointed satelite guided AK's, that wouldn't be cool. But to outright blanket and say "NONE OF THIS EXISTS", in regards to automatics or pistols---two mutually exclusive things, by the way, well... it's silly.

Yes, we are hero units. Yes, we are our -own- lore figures. Doesn't mean we are well known by other lore figures, or that others have to know us, but we are the 1% that's stronger than the average. Just because we aren't all prestige classes doesn't mean we are all suddenly weak.

Even the player who has that farmer still has the potential to -become- the hero, if they want. (Or Villain.) Just because we are all at an even stance, -does not mean- we are the weak characters.

[Maulbane]

... Well, if you're not talking about the kind of guns that Godfrey was holding, then I'm not sure what I've been arguing about. My point was that guns should be balanced, and they're balanced by being either bulky, not-so-accurate, hard-to-reload, prone to backfire or expensive as hell (just one of them is fine, as long as it isn't the opposite of all four at the same time).

*scratches head*

I dunno if you disagree with that, but that was what I was going for.

Edit: <--- That's me

[Harmonic]

Well, yeah. That's why we roll-fight most of the time. I'm not making the argument that guns should -ever- be better. Just that "even if" someone has them, it doesn't mean that they are always going to win over everything else.

I was talking about Godfrey's guns... but, even something like that could be dodges or absorbed by plate. As for the Harry Potter argument? Again, WoW is a place where mages wear magically woven clothing, that's able to withstand a certain amount of force. Otherwise everyone would try to master wearing heavy armor all the time too, because who would want to fight a guy who can throw a fireball at you -without- wearing two inches of metal? Heh.

[Maulbane]

That all makes sense to me (though the idea of dodging bullets always set off my 'everybody-constantly-takes-amphetamines-in-this-world' alarm), so I guess I haven't got much else to say... I think we were both talking about different things in our posts. Gimme a hug.

... Though I think it's still a good idea to keep http://www.wowhead.com/item=86331 out of peoples' hands

Because damn, son.

That thing crazy.

[Valicor]

I don't see what the benefit of having equipment that trumps everybody else without question, like semi-automatic pistols that can shoot dozens of times in a cone (if Godfrey's abilities section is anything to go by) really is, or how it helps RP in any way except giving people bigger bragging rights. It's just not fair on other people, IMO, and it forces other characters to have to try and match it or get turned into jelly.

I think this statement in itself is what caused me to make this thread.
Because we can all stand around in an arena and swing weapons and shields and be fairly matched...but can you draw the line when somebody draws a flintlock pistol and has the most utter and unmatchable killing power? It is just a little unfair imo (in my opinion) as well.

[flammos200]

I don't see what the benefit of having equipment that trumps everybody else without question, like semi-automatic pistols that can shoot dozens of times in a cone (if Godfrey's abilities section is anything to go by) really is, or how it helps RP in any way except giving people bigger bragging rights. It's just not fair on other people, IMO, and it forces other characters to have to try and match it or get turned into jelly.

I think this statement in itself is what caused me to make this thread.
Because we can all stand around in an arena and swing weapons and shields and be fairly matched...but can you draw the line when somebody draws a flintlock pistol and has the most utter and unmatchable killing power? It is just a little unfair imo (in my opinion) as well.

Now, see, I haven't been a hardcore arena fighter in a while. But from what I know, unless times've changed quite a bit, guns are still off limits in the areas, at the very least those operated by the Steamwheedle Cartel.

[DuskWolf]

Honestly, in WoW I don't see a gun being any better than any other range weapon. There are arrows specifically made to puncture armor and might even do it better than a bullet. (Bodkin point) Tech, magic, religion, it is all just different flavors of lore to the same end.

Arena fights are just not that fun with any kind of range weapon, that is called a duel. Duels are boring, bang, bang, some one is dead.

[Kage]

You've clearly never had a fight in the arena with myself Dusk. Bang bang can turn into miss miss ohgawdIhastoreloadohgawdmyarmisgoneagain duels. (On a serious note, ranged duels can provide something that melee can't. Luck shown ICly.)

[Delta]

In a setting like Warcraft, guns don't tip the scale enormously.

Even certain types of fabrics can provide decent protection against bullets. With enchantments available to anyone with the knowledge, contacts, or coin, simple wards to augment armour are possible, if not probable. Mages possess the 'Slow' spell, priests have levitate and their barriers, and warlocks, well, they'd probably just chuckle if a gun was pointed their way.

Of course, guns are fatally dangerous, but so are swords, spears, arrows, bolts, and the array of spells wielded by a caster of any kind. Here, our craft is war. If there's a precedent, especially one as prevalent as firearms, why not utilise the technology?

[Xigo]

A bullet in you is dangerous, as is an arrow, or a sword, or an axe, or my pinkie finger. If anything penetrates you, it's dangerous.

With how most people treat their wounds ICly 'IE: My character is just a big sack of meat that blood occasionally squirts out of and maybe a bone will be broken and my limbs can move regardless of what is cut', a bullet is not that big a deal. If we treated it realistically, sure, it'd be a huge deal to get shot. You'd have internal bleeding to worry about. If you got shot in the stomach, you would die. If you got shot in the thigh, you would probably bleed out. If you got shot in the chest, you'd probably die. If you got shot in the shoulder, you would probably die. So on, so forth.

Before you worry about how effective guns are in roleplay, you should worry about how people treat wounds in roleplay. If you are roleplaying with a realistic crowd that takes every wound as a serious ordeal, then yes, bullets are helluv dangerous. If you are roleplaying with the 'only a flesh wound' crowd, then no, bullets are just as dangerous as any other weapon, and only kill you if it's dramatic.

In any case, I largely agree with Delta's post. There's a lot of different armors in Warcraft that could mitigate damage a bullet would do to you. There's a lot of different enchantments that could provide additional protection. Even our cloth casters could reasonably say 'I have mage armor on' and it diminishes damage done by bullets. As dangerous as they might be, there are ways to deal with them.

I dunno about the 'players are heroes' thing. As in, if you mean they're like gameplay heroes. Maybe in the past, but these days with the more flattened way variant classes are dealt with (as far as I've asked, prestige titles were removed because of misuse of power), there aren't as many superhero characters. There are already tons of powerful characters, but they generally don't have the crazy equipment that MMO heroes do. I don't see why anybody should unless they work for it ICly.

It's because of 'roleplay power creep'. It's not a discussion for this topic, but there's roleplay power creep regardless of where you go. I would discuss this more in a different thread, but that's the gist of why, frequently, 'players are heroes'.

Many people roleplay their characters as being quick enough to dodge a bullet fired from optimal range from an aimed weapon. It's not something I approve of, but it's there. People do roleplay their characters as fantasy superheroes quite often on CotH.

[Thoradin]

Xigo, are you implying that I can't have my heavily armed and armored ogre warrior, do several backflips and a bellyflop in order to avoid incoming Machine Gun fire from a Siege Tank?


I am very offended at this.