Clearing something up.

[Bishnak]

I've been seeing this a couple of times lately (mainly concerning Deadmines) and I thought I would try to clear it up, as I'm starting to have doubts whether or not I'm right or wrong. So bear with me while I try to explain.

In the MMO, the level of mobs increase gradually as you all know in order for there to be a path to take when levelling up. ICly, as we treat things around here though, I've always thought of levels as sort of trivial and been more concerned about the lore surrounding said mob/area when trying to decide how dangerous/difficult it is. Take Zul'Aman for instance, where on "regular" servers the instance is built in the way that 10 players are able to beat the whole thing. However, according to the RPG-books Zul'Aman has a population of 20,000 trolls, which means the chance of 10 people killing their way all the way to Zul'Jin and besting him as well.. yeah, you see what I'm getting at.

I got into a bit of an argument with a couple of players a little while ago in the LFG-channel (sorry 'bout that). Someone proposed they would do Deadmines ICly, and Xagin adviced against it as again, the RPG states that Moonbrook holds about 4,000 Defias (and I'm sure Deadmines is pretty crowded as well). So 5 people wandering down there would most likely be killed/captured. Let's just say they didn't agree and I decided to not continue discussing it in-game any further to avoid drama.

I would like to clear this up though, how are we supposed to handle these things? I was told pretty much to mind my own business, but if someone would run Deadmines ICly and kill Van Cleef, that means he'd be officially dead to my character as well as I think of such IC-events as sort of official and something that affects everyone.

After what I was called though, I'm done arguing about it (ever). But I would still like to know what goes and what doesn't for future reference.

[Kainue]

I was one who witnessed this argument, though I did NOT get involved, it did bring up a really good argument. The Deadmines is pretty much the main headquarters of the Defias bandit gang, yes. So, of course it would be heavily guarded and the chances of 5 to 10 players actually defeating every single bandit to get to Van Cleef is...well...none. So, unless you had an army of soldiers or willing mercenaries, you'd be dead or captured the moment you stepped into the Deadmines.

Overall, this just seems to me like a confusion of OOC game play with the IC role playing.

OOC style of doing it: 10 players using the usual game mechanics like abilities, spells and damage dealing to fight their way to the end of an instance, obviously.

IC being, well, it would require a player that is a commander of a said army to initiate any sort of battle against the Defias bandits. Then, perhaps, players may join in the fray to act as mercenary of sorts. But chances of this actually happening is slim as well, as it would require NPC manipulation, editing the area of the Deadmines to look like it is a war scene, GM involvement and lore bending.

All of which is a big "No No". Yes?

[Rax]

I think if those involved kept their in-instance RP to party chat, whispers, and says, and didn't insist that their overwhelming victory of the Defias remain treated as server canon, it shouldn't bother any further RP on the server.

I can really only see the IC instance runs as an issue if someone insists that, for example, they defeated Van Cleef and therefore, he is dead and the Defias are gone from Moonbrook. Realistically, running through an instance while RPing doesn't really affect anyone outside of that party, so I can't say that it would bother me in the least. The main point of this server is to have fun in an RP-friendly environment and restricting something like the locations that people may RP doesn't seem fair.

[Lordbluerune]

If they do it in a Rp which is -IC- then Van cleef is dead -IC-.....

Edit And Van Cleef is a major lore character.

[Grakor456]

First off, allow me to say that I saw screen shots of this argument, and both sides could have handled it better.

That stated, here's the deal. We're dealing with two issues here, both of which are relevant.

1. We cannot accurately represent, in-game, the numbers a location would realistically have. Four thousand mobs will not fit in Moonbrook. We, therefore, cannot realistically represent the challenge taking on *an entire army* would have.

2. Levels are not, and have never been, really representative of power. As a random example, Zalazane, the level 9 or so troll in Echo Isles that newbie Orcs and Trolls kill for a soloable quest is actually supposed to be a very powerful Necromancer-type figure in the lore. This is comes up especially because this IS Deadmines and is such a low level instance.

Van Cleef is not some punk anyone can walk over and kick in the posterior, like he is in Live. Moonbrook is not some sparcely-populated thieves' den like it is on Live. Keep that in mind. I'm of the opinion that, no, you can't just clear out the vast majority of these instances with just a party of five to ten people. Just isn't possible.

[Rax]

I think a compromise needs to be reached... I understand I'm new, but I'm trying to be as reasonable about the attitudes expressed as possible.

I think that nobody should be kicked or reprimanded for being in Deadmines and RPing with a companion. On the other hand, I don't think that any IC run of any instance should count as a solid character victory. I suggest that people be allowed to run instances in whatever capacity they like as long as it doesn't become a part of their character's story. This way, everyone can have their IC fun in instances (which won't be heard by anyone else and bother anyone else's fun, since it will stick to party chat), and then, when everyone's back in open RP within regular cities, there won't be any stories of victory over the Defias, which has the potential to break the storylines of other players.

There's a difference between an IC destruction of the Defias and a simple bit of RP fun while running an instance with a new RP friend. As long as the more strict IC players don't bother those who find RP in instance atmospheres fun and as long as the less strict IC players don't put their instance stories into their characters' canons while hamming it up in places like Azshara Crater, I think a pretty happy agreement can exist.

[Painty]

I think if those involved kept their in-instance RP to party chat, whispers, and says, and didn't insist that their overwhelming victory of the Defias remain treated as server canon, it shouldn't bother any further RP on the server.

I can really only see the IC instance runs as an issue if someone insists that, for example, they defeated Van Cleef and therefore, he is dead and the Defias are gone from Moonbrook. Realistically, running through an instance while RPing doesn't really affect anyone outside of that party, so I can't say that it would bother me in the least. The main point of this server is to have fun in an RP-friendly environment and restricting something like the locations that people may RP doesn't seem fair.

If I'd have done that I would have gotten away with it, but I would have been breaking the rules. And secondly, I did not insist that my gnome was leading any decisive victory against the Defias bandits. I don't even know where to find Van Cleef, nor do I think my character strong enough to kill him. And it doesn't even bother me that much, but at the time I got a bit angry. I wanted to get away from the rules of tavern RP, but got slapped with a few more on instance RP. It does make sense. No question. And I left when I did so that I wouldn't end up doing something stupid, like bashing my head against the brick wall of common logic.

Anyways, sorry. Didn't mean to get riled up.