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Forsaken Priests
#16
Quote:"The Light rewards faith, not form."

I've quoted the text above in chat before. Sadly, the people involved in the discussion wouldn't even consider it. To me, that nearly proves that Forsaken are able to use the Light. That card is the newest bit of lore we've gotten from the developers. If I'm not mistaken, it was printed quite a while after the P&P source books, and certainly after any in-game text.

I'm with Piroska on this matter, as I have been for a while now. There's no sense in reiterating, as I couldn't say it quite as well, but culturally, the Forsaken feel betrayed by the Light - hence, Forsaken. For a deader to still believe in the Light, let alone wield it, would be the ultimate form of taboo in Forsaken society. And this is assuming said deader isn't an evil f***.

And of course, this is all opinion. Take it as you will. But I believe it's ultimately possible, albeit extremely unlikely.
"...naaaa." She bleated, suddenly very wooly and small.

-Anna
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#17
Quote:A corpse could wield the Light but will in doing so quite quickly bring his own demise.


With that said, I'd just like to point this out;


http://www.wowpedia.org/Sir_Zeliek

Quote: Zeliek is, "so strong in his faith, that even in undeath, the power of the light still heeds his call, smiting his foes in battle."

This particular undead is of the -scourge- and he can use the light, meaning it's not at all farfetched to think that a member of the forsaken, who actually have control of themselves, would be able to cast it as well.
"Every gun..."

[Image: Jonah-Hex-Counting-Corpses-Flaming-Leap.jpg]

"...Makes its own tune."


~ The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly ~
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#18
Dear sir Zelik is a very special case indeed. The fact is that it does not have to be that strange; Zeliek's body is controlled, not his mind, so he is still the great paladin he was before with access to the Light. It is just a pity that this can be harnessed by whoever or whatever controls his body.
(02-24-2012, 10:15 AM)Piroska Wrote: Conspiracy. That's all it is; Kret's afraid that your pure, digital awesomeness would crash the server if it were allowed.
(06-14-2013, 05:42 PM)McKnighter Wrote: Bovel, Lord of Beards

Character About Involvement
Causticity Blackbreath Goblin Alchemist -
Telaah Draenei Anchorite Writings of an Anchorite

[Image: kiXJxhI.gif]
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#19
Bovel Wrote:Dear sir Zelik is a very special case indeed. The fact is that it does not have to be that strange; Zeliek's body is controlled, not his mind, so he is still the great paladin he was before with access to the Light. It is just a pity that this can be harnessed by whoever or whatever controls his body.
Given that, a Forsaken should be able to wield the Light (assuming said Forsaken has the faith) since his mind is his own.
"...naaaa." She bleated, suddenly very wooly and small.

-Anna
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#20
Exactly. Since it's not hurting him to use it, and the quote 'The Light reward faith, not form" put together, means that it's completely viable to half a light wielding forsaken.
"Every gun..."

[Image: Jonah-Hex-Counting-Corpses-Flaming-Leap.jpg]

"...Makes its own tune."


~ The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly ~
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#21
Firstly he is a death knight, secondly he has regained his mind through his strong faith.
Thrid, there is no mention if he or if he don't burn by the Light his body smites his enemies with.

This heroic character to say the least is not proof or rolemodel that forsaken can go around wielding Light all they want.
(02-24-2012, 10:15 AM)Piroska Wrote: Conspiracy. That's all it is; Kret's afraid that your pure, digital awesomeness would crash the server if it were allowed.
(06-14-2013, 05:42 PM)McKnighter Wrote: Bovel, Lord of Beards

Character About Involvement
Causticity Blackbreath Goblin Alchemist -
Telaah Draenei Anchorite Writings of an Anchorite

[Image: kiXJxhI.gif]
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#22
You're right, Sir Zeliek alone is not enough proof. Really, it comes down to this: we don't know. There's conflicting evidence. Some sources say it's possible, others say it isn't. What it comes down to is player interpretation and logical reasoning. If a player can come up with a sound reason for having a deader wield the Light, I'd love to hear it! But as was mentioned by Piroska, there would be dire social ramifications.
"...naaaa." She bleated, suddenly very wooly and small.

-Anna
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#23
Bovel Wrote:Dear sir Zelik is a very special case indeed. The fact is that it does not have to be that strange; Zeliek's body is controlled, not his mind, so he is still the great paladin he was before with access to the Light. It is just a pity that this can be harnessed by whoever or whatever controls his body.

It actually isn't that different from what the Forsaken are. Their minds are free, aren't they who they were before? Of course not all of them would be, however its not hard to believe that one could remember, and one could not blame the Light. And while the Light may harm the Forsaken, can't this be prevented by placing some sort of armor between you and the Light? For example, smite creates Light, at least in the animation for it, in the hand of the caster. If one was wearing gloves, the Light wouldn't touch them, would it?

And Bovel, him being a death knight has nothing to do with it. A Death Knight and a Forsaken are both the same in the fact they are undead, and being a death knight would make it harder to wield the light, in my opinion.
[Image: Ml7sNnX.gif]
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#24
Mortiphobia Wrote:I've quoted the text above in chat before. Sadly, the people involved in the discussion wouldn't even consider it.
Pity. I have, however!

My argument boils down to three distinct points:
  • In most cases I'd rather be inclusive than exclusive, especially in situations where substantial evidence to the contrary exists. As a result, if people can come up with a lore-based justified reason (one where I can nod and say, "Yes, that's very possible!") for why their Forsaken use the Light, I'll be happy. Note: I am an individual and may not reflect the collective opinion of the staff in this!
  • There is evidence to the contrary, including the quote that both Mortiphobia and C0rzilla have referenced at this point.
  • The concept of the Light harming Forsaken has been considered a remnant of when White Wolf wrote the roleplaying guides and based it on concepts from the Dungeons and Dragons universe. I have come across discussions in which it was mentioned that, in regards to the Warcraft universe, a fundamental retcon occurred in the roleplaying game that no longer reflects this concept. This is the stance that the articles on WoWWiki has adopted, which is why there is no mention of the Light harming Forsaken in any updated article that I can find.

However, I feel that individuals who create Forsaken with the intent of having them not only actively follow the Holy Light of Creation but also visibly utilize its powers should be cognizant of how this may potentially have dire results for their characters. As noted, the Forsaken are group of people who have embraced this cultural concept of the Shadow. They've perverted their former beliefs due to this idea that the Light has abandoned them; this fanatic ideal is so pervasive in their society that not only has an entire cult sprung up in worshipl but also individuals exist who hunt and slay practitioners of the Light!

If I'm not careful, I may reiterate the entirety of my previous posts!
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#25
My opinion is that the Forsaken can't use the Light, and never will.

Quote:It would seem, however, that the Light has turned its back on the Forsaken, and they are unable to channel it. In this, the truth of their name becomes apparent.

From WoWWiki it states that they're unable to channel the Light. Plus look at that Forsaken guy in the Argent Dawn - he can't use the Light to my knowledge. I've forgotten his name. Leonid something? At any rate, he's a good example of a Forsaken who's faith in the Light stood strong even in death, but he can't use it still.

Let's also remind ourselves of the good ol' Ashbringer. The big, holy Light sword that turns Undead to ashes. :B Wielded by a Paladin, no less.

The Forgotten Shadow is also something to bring to light (hur pun). If the Forsaken could still use the Light, then it seems a bit... pointless making up a new religion that revolves around a corrupted philosophy of said religion. Also from WoWWiki:

Quote:While the undead can no longer use the Holy Light, and have learned how to use the Shadow, they also preach that there must be a balance between Light and Shadow, and that they must learn the Light as well, but never forget they were born from the Shadow.

Again it makes mention of Undead unable to wield the Light. But how Sir Zeliek can still wield the Light is... beyond me, and it just seems like a Blizzard lore hiccup in an attempt to make him sound cool. I dunno. But I still feel the Forsaken can't use the Light.
"I am more afraid of one hundred sheep led by a lion than one hundred lions led by a sheep."
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#26
There's enough reasoning posted earlier in the thread that leads to a conclusion that it might be possible for Forsaken to wield the Light, so I won't reiterate here.

I would just like to mention that WoWwiki says nothing about Leonid Barthalomew being a priest or paladin in life. It simply says he was a "hero".
"...naaaa." She bleated, suddenly very wooly and small.

-Anna
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#27
To play the devil's advocate and go completely against my stance on this, what would make a Death Knight wielding the Light any different than a Forsaken? If the Forsaken could potentially wield it, why not Death Knights? I'm curious as to what the for side has to say about this.

My answer to that would be that they committed acts of great atrocity, and knew what they were doing was evil. Despite the fact that they had no choice, they still murdered hundreds of innocents and knew it was wrong. Could they have acted selflessly in the name of the Light, killing thesmselves instead?
"...naaaa." She bleated, suddenly very wooly and small.

-Anna
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#28
Mortiphobia Wrote:To play the devil's advocate and go completely against my stance on this, what would make a Death Knight wielding the Light any different than a Forsaken? If the Forsaken could potentially wield it, why not Death Knights? I'm curious as to what the for side has to say about this.

My answer to that would be that they committed acts of great atrocity, and knew what they were doing was evil. Despite the fact that they had no choice, they still murdered hundreds of innocents and knew it was wrong. Could they have acted selflessly in the name of the Light, killing thesmselves instead?
In the eyes of the light, killing oneself is seen as treachery and selfishness - So the light would hold no favour for those who kill themselves theoretically.
Jeneal jumps into the water. "HAHAHAHAHA!" She turns into a seal.
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#29
Quote:In the eyes of the light, killing oneself is seen as treachery and selfishness - So the light would hold no favour for those who kill themselves theoretically.
I've actually never read that before. Alright, same concept: saving (or attempting to) the Argent Dawn prisoners/innocent civilians instead of slaying them all. Might that be a reason against Death Knights wielding the Light, assuming the Forsaken could?
"...naaaa." She bleated, suddenly very wooly and small.

-Anna
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#30
Interesting way to kill someone accidently.


Try casting holy light on an undead. Or better yet...

Get them to cast it on themselves? If only...what a taught.
Dulche et decorum est.Pro patria muori.

[Image: awawwaw.gif]

Only in death...
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