Highs and Lows

[Rowgen]

Naturally, but all I'm saying is that death isn't as common as people dying on every corner of Stormwind.

[Jaella]

Then I keep wondering why Silvermoon has a placed called murder row :P

[Harmonic]

It does happen, but what I think what mouse was saying is how people toss out CW's without thinking of plausible ways of keeping the character alive, while furthering storylines. A severe injury could say more than outright killing someone, and also prevent a lot of hurt feelings that can stem from something like that.

Just, in my opinion, there's sometimes things that could be easily avoided, or that -should- be avoided.

[ChampionMouse]

Aye, and that comes back to the whole high fantasy low fantasy setting thing. In some cases, in a high fantasy setting, there is no regard for death. We can talk about killing people all over the place, brag about it, threaten to cause more death...because it isn't such a big deal.

But it -is- a big deal. And should be treated that way in rp, you know? Both on an IC and meta level.

Just my two cents though, considering that my characters are threatened with murder like every other day. HAH. ;P

[Rowgen]

. . . Oh, I must've misread. Nevermind, I'm not much dedicated to this topic. >_>

[Zhaei]

Spoiler:

Talking with a dialect doesn't make you flawed, and neither does doing things that aren't standard to your class...

BUT MY CHARACTER GETS ANGERED EASILY!!!

A severe injury could say more than outright killing someone, and also prevent a lot of hurt feelings that can stem from something like that.

This is very true and a great point. People become way too attached to their characters, a topic that's been discussed in other threads, but it doesn't mean they have to be invulnerable. One of the things Rowgen and I threw into one of our events was having a character in the guild actually be captured by one of the antagonists. That was, in my opinion, hugely successful. People played out their despair, rage, grief &c. really well.

Personally, I think the CW system needs a major discussion. It really encourages the invulnerable-player effect: "I wasn't CWed, thus I cannot be touched" is really quite common.

[Psychyn]

I'm surprised to see that topic come up again personally. Perhaps it's because I haven't been in the major events lately involving combat (most likely) but I haven't had the feeling that people play invulnerable. A small event I held that was supposed to be not dangerous, turned into dangerous the moment a certain caravan owner caused for friendly fire. The elf took two bullets to the back and RPed it out well. No character warning was given, and the friendly fire incident was rather unexpected. (I personally can't recall the last time I gave out a character warning, but have caused for quite a few injuries through events. Perhaps it's because I don't PvP much?)

I'm not saying that those people aren't on CotH, but I'm merely giving insight from my own RP's to lighten the "People are overly attached / RP invulnerable." topic that has risen once again. Case of bad luck perhaps?

[Xigo]

Seeing as I don't think you were here for previous chaos, Zhaei. CWs are mostly a prevention for players to keep from butchering eachother, as which was happening a while back.

We GMs, of course, reserve the right to kill a character for doing something stupid.

[Rowgen]

I remember a lot of chaos was caused back in those days. Looking back, I was really lucky to miss out on most of it...

We GMs, of course, reserve the right to kill a character for doing something stupid.

*Insert tasteless joke*

Spoiler:

Like being created, in some cases. It's called Denial.

[Grakor456]

This is very true and a great point. People become way too attached to their characters, a topic that's been discussed in other threads, but it doesn't mean they have to be invulnerable. One of the things Rowgen and I threw into one of our events was having a character in the guild actually be captured by one of the antagonists. That was, in my opinion, hugely successful. People played out their despair, rage, grief &c. really well.

Personally, I think the CW system needs a major discussion. It really encourages the invulnerable-player effect: "I wasn't CWed, thus I cannot be touched" is really quite common.

If there are two things that constantly come up in conversation, especially among the GMs, it's the Character Warning system and the Death/Resurrection system. The problem comes that it's near impossible to change either of these things and have everyone be happy.

You make CWs harder to ignore or make Death harder or more punishing to come back from, and it actually discourages conflict because then everyone gets afraid of having their characters whacked. You make them more lenient, and then everyone proclaims that people are invulnerable or having their characters treat death as a minor inconvenience. There's no happy middle-ground that I've ever seen suggested in all of my years on CotH. Discussions usually end in this rift between two camps, one of which believes that the other gets "too attached to their characters" and should be willing to accept awful things happening to them, and the other half saying that they don't want others to force awful things on their characters and it'd be unfair if they were at the mercy of the server's more sadistic population. You can't win either way.

The rules put into place were to set a stance, protecting those that want to protect their characters. No, the system isn't perfect because people will willingly dance around the line and hide behind the protection of the CW system, pushing the boundaries all the while. That is frustrating, but I find it preferable to the alternative, personally.

[Zhaei]

Seeing as I don't think you were here for previous chaos, Zhaei. CWs are mostly a prevention for players to keep from butchering each other, as which was happening a while back.

Ah, I see. I've caught vague references to the fact, yes - Tavren?

You make CWs harder to ignore or make death harder or more punishing to come back from, and it actually discourages conflict because then everyone gets afraid of having their characters whacked. You make them more lenient, and then everyone proclaims that people are invulnerable or having their characters treat death as a minor inconvenience. There's no happy middle-ground that I've ever seen suggested in all of my years on CotH. Discussions usually end in this rift between two camps, one of which believes that the other gets "too attached to their characters" and should be willing to accept awful things happening to them, and the other half saying that they don't want others to force awful things on their characters and it'd be unfair if they were at the mercy of the server's more sadistic population. You can't win either way.

I can see the problem entirely. I do have a couple of suggestions but I'll refrain from posting them unless you think otherwise because you've heard them before, it's off-topic and it's not my place to throw suggestions at the staff without being asked to. What are your personal opinions on the system?

[Piken]

'kay.. Gonna be lazy here.

I agree with Rigley's post, he words it better than I would.

I also agree with Rensin in that you don't always need to kill off a character. A bad wound is much more painful to a character's ego than.. actually killing them. And the player gets to be happy that their character's not dead and gets to live to fight another day. I tend to give CWs only because I'm afraid someone will abuse the system in case something happens that they don't like.

I also agree with Mouse, in the sense that.. I honestly don't like character -death-. I like character progression, and death can halt that progression. While it can have certain 'progression' qualities for OTHER characters, it can kinda screw over the player of the dead guy. Of course, if you're in an absolutely bad situation you can't get out of.. SOL. ;-;

Also to agree with Kage(<3) who brought up 'middle-fantasy'. I think I fit in more towards low-to-mid. I can do all just fine, but that's my preference.

Annnnd.. I got nothin' else for now!

[Kage]

Also to agree with the person(forgot who, sorry! <3) who brought up 'middle-fantasy'. I think I fit in more towards low-to-mid. I can do all just fine, but that's my preference.

T'was me

But remaining on that topic, we really should try to get some mid-level going on. Not even low-mid or mid-high. Just mid.

[Binkleheimer]

Seeing as I don't think you were here for previous chaos, Zhaei. CWs are mostly a prevention for players to keep from butchering each other, as which was happening a while back.

Ah, I see. I've caught vague references to the fact, yes - Tavren?

No, he made constant use of CW's.
It's more people thought that by proxy of having a few more units meant they would win. And then they'd sit around for a few minutes (Read a good 10-20 minutes) while he literally summoned more people in front of them.
Then fight.
And all collectively die.
It was fairly amusing, to be honest.

[rentreality]

I was just talking about this with a few people a couple of nights back in Shatterspear. I think that a large part of the problems with invulnerability, etc., is that people simply do not know enough about combat and combat injuries to make an informed decision. It seems that combat invariably results in one person being dead, and the other one being alive and relatively unharmed, because people do not know how debilitating any given wound would be.

I made a guide about injuries a long while back, prior to my break, but it's a clunky thing. It details a lot of information about likelihood and timing of death, the potential disabilities, etc., from a given wound, but looking back on it, it misses what I think is the most important part:

If you are struck by an arrow, you will not brush it off. There is nobody in the world who could brush off getting struck by an arrow. Look at Boromir's death in the Lord of the Rings: the fact that he got up and kept fighting after the first impact is nothing short of miraculous, and it is about the best that any one of us could expect to do.

If you are struck by a sword, you will not brush it off. The blood loss alone would make you light-headed. If it was bad enough, you would quite literally begin to see the world in black and white, and you would be lucky to hear anything beyond a constant ringing, let alone actually be able to muster the strength to swing back.

If you are struck by an offensive spell, you will not brush it off. Shock kills, and it is difficult to imagine a greater shock than instantly receiving 3rd degree burns across over a large portion of your body, having a limb flash-frozen, or having your shape changed.

Even blocking a blow with a shield would not be something you could brush off. Ever hit something hard with a stick? Know that feeling where your arm goes numb and tingles for a few minutes? You'd be feeling that. If you were small enough, or weak enough, and your opponent large or strong enough, even blocking the blow might break your arm. It was common for soldiers to have the flesh of their forearms and wrists cut and abraded from where the edges of their shields dug in when they absorbed a blow.

It doesn't matter if you're a courageous hero or a peasant who abruptly needs a new pair of underwear in a hurry. Your body is a body, and high fantasy or low, the attacks you suffer will have consequences.

TL;DR: You can't brush it off.