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#16
dragonmad Wrote:I feel as if I will be banned if I criticize any GM in chat, or even in /w.

/rant ON

Never criticise a GM in chat. EVER. It'll just make everyone suddenly go "Yeah I agree!" then all of a sudden everyone's ganging up on the GM. How would you feel if suddenly 3 or 4 people started listing all your flaws and rage at you, when at the end of the day you're just trying to help. Do it in a constructive way, or better yet, PM your concerns to the admins and have them talk to the GM.

I'm also going to be honest here: A minority of players do stupid things. I could list everything bad that's happened, but I'll just sum it up and say some are being difficult. When people do stupid things, *repeatedly*, it gets very annoying. One is because most can be resolved if they just took the time to read, and two because someone else can say the exact same thing and they'll go "FINALLY A GOOD ANSWER". I bet not a single person here can say they didn't get irritated by someone asking the same question over and over, when the answer was right infront their faces.

Yes, we may seem scary. Yes, we may seem like royal pricks at times, but it's rarely without reason whatsoever. In my case, it's usually small, but redundant things just piling onto each other. Take into consideration RL issues aswell.

Now, I'm not trying to make it seem like it's the player's fault, however it may seem, because it's a double edged sword here.

My point is, if players can't treat US with respect, how can they expect us to do the same?

Treat others like how you would like to be treated.

/rant off

As a sidenote, I apologise if I seemed rude. I wasn't my intention.
"I am more afraid of one hundred sheep led by a lion than one hundred lions led by a sheep."
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#17
Quote:Never criticise a GM in chat. EVER. It'll just make everyone suddenly go "Yeah I agree!" then all of a sudden everyone's ganging up on the GM. How would you feel if suddenly 3 or 4 people started listing all your flaws and rage at you, when at the end of the day you're just trying to help. Do it in a constructive way, or better yet, PM your concerns to the admins and have them talk to the GM.

Let me rephrase that. Rather than criticize, I'll say disagree because they both tend to end with the same result. I can understand exactly where you're coming from, I really do and I can't stend that the community does it. I myself do try not to, I really do, but when a GM or two starts going to the extremes and berating people in chat, my internet hero reflex gets the best of me. (What I mean to say is, it happens to everyone. No that doesn't make it right, but it's how it works.)

Quote:I'm also going to be honest here: A minority of players do stupid things. I could list everything bad that's happened, but I'll just sum it up and say some are being difficult. When people do stupid things, *repeatedly*, it gets very annoying. One is because most can be resolved if they just took the time to read, and two because someone else can say the exact same thing and they'll go "FINALLY A GOOD ANSWER". I bet not a single person here can say they didn't get irritated by someone asking the same question over and over, when the answer was right infront their faces.

/agree completely

Quote:Yes, we may seem scary. Yes, we may seem like royal pricks at times, but it's rarely without reason whatsoever. In my case, it's usually small, but redundant things just piling onto each other. Take into consideration RL issues aswell.

I'm not saying that that's not justified. It really is. But it needs to be remembered by the GM's when things like this happen and the community is told to talk to them. Talking to someone who is a player is fine, but when they suddenly hold a -LOT- more sway in events, I'm more intimidated to keep my mouth shut.

Quote:Now, I'm not trying to make it seem like it's the player's fault, however it may seem, because it's a double edged sword here.

My point is, if players can't treat US with respect, how can they expect us to do the same?

Treat others like how you would like to be treated.

/Agreeination
As someone wise once said, the important thing is never to be fearless or confident. Most people have more than enough trouble with both. The trick is to fake it, because if you learn to fake it properly, it's the same thing as actually having confidence.
Spoiler:
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#18
Alright, I rarely ever post in things like this, but after reading a lot of what you've all been saying. I have mixed feelings towards it. I am an old CoTHer from when it first came out, a lot of things have changed needless to say, for the best at that. But some of those things that have changed are for the worst. Yes, I plan on pointing out what I think needs to change, and what I think shouldn't change, yes I will probably seem arrogant in this post, yes I will probably get mixed reviews of what I am typing here. But understand that I am not doing this to get anyone upset or angry. I love CoTH, everytime I have left (which has only been two times since it first came out) things have changed, but I always come back because it is a great place for RP. I am not trying to hammer at the GMs or the player base in this.

First off, I personally must agree with some of the comments on how the GMs are frightening. I am also afraid of them sometimes and get the feeling that yes, I will be banned if I disagree with them. But I have also been the equivelence of a GM in many forum RPs my friends and I host. I have had to deal with angry players who do not always agree, and I can understand why the GMs may come off this way. Needless to say, this is also different considering that I have had a smaller player base when I was, now I am also straying off of the planned thought of this paragraph. I have a few friends in the player base who I will not name that admit that they are scared, excuse my language, shitless of the GMs, and quite frankly, I can't blame them. But to all of the GMs and players that say communication is key, make it that way. Just come off as more friendly sometimes or something, but this also goes for the players. Communication is key, that's true, but you have to MAKE it that way. Just show respect, be friendly, treat each other as equals, but also remember who is the "boss".

Sometimes I feel also that on CoTH, not just the GMs here mind you this is for everyone, myself included. That we are very, VERY elitist sometimes. I have had this conversation over AIM with Piken once before, and I personally CANNOT stand elitism. Especially when I myself get elitist.

I apologize if I was repeating myself too much in this, and if other people have already said this and I pretty much said the exact same thing. There was a lot more I feel like I have to get off my chest, not necessarily negative statements, but yeah you get the point. And apologies if I insult anyone. I just personally feel that for myself when I was a Administrator on some of our forum RP's that even though I had last say over the players, I was equal to them.

EDIT: I forgot to state that it must actually be difficult to keep as a GM in a pre-established lore base. That is another thing players have to understand.
Thane Gwydd: Mountain King Gwyddy
Warlord Kron: Horde Warlord
Battlecruiser Captain: Who called in the fleet?
Sir Baldwin: Knight of Stormwind
My Guide to Roleplaying Warfare!
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#19
I don't know, I think a lot of what I see here is kind of saying the same thing about GMs, players, and communication. What I think the problem is is that when you put on the GM tag and throw yourself out into the player base, you are essentially representing a group of individuals and from then on everything you say or do is going to be reflected on everyone in that group. It's almost like politics in a way, you can't just be blunt about your point even though you've said it one hundred times over because it does shade you in a bad light, even if you don't want it to mean that. All we see is text, and no matter how many times you say it isn't meant to be rude or cold, it does look that way when someone sees it on something very personal to them that they created.

It would be impossible for me to say the solution is to never be cold, because I can't think of anyone who manages to avoid such things 100% of the time, but I think in order to lessen that effect it is required that you soften up your words or even add creative suggestions. It's a really simple psychological problem. If you present someone with something that throws them on the defensive such as a cold statement about their creation or idea, then they are not going to be very receptive or understanding of your point. If you present something in such a way as to provide them with suggestions and applause to the good parts of their work then they are far more likely to take it well. Hence why good criticism is always layered as:

Good stuff. (Hey, first off I thought X was a great idea.)
Bad stuff. (Although lots of X fit, Y doesn't really make a lot of sense, perhaps you should Z.)
Good stuff. (So, overall it was a good read, I look forward to seeing what you come up with!)

Which is far more likely to be taken on a positive note.

More importantly, you have to remember that being a GM does not entitle you to the respect of the player base, true respect is always earned and never given freely. In fact, because you're in a position of authority, that makes it all the much more difficult to gain the respect of the players.

There is rarely a good reason to be angry, snappy, cold, etc. towards players who want to give you an idea, or are presenting creative work to you. In fact the position almost calls on limitless patience and understanding, or at the very least the ability to speak with a friendly tone almost 24/7. Point is, it's not an easy job by any means, what people see or hear from other players is more often than not going to impact their opinions one hundred times over regarding the GM staff no matter what you post in topics such as this one, even though the intentions are good.

The best way to explain this concept is marketing. The most effective form of advertising is word of mouth, not commercials, not billboards, not free samples. If your friend says it's good, then you're a -lot- more inclined to try it, this is fact. The exact same thing goes for GMs.
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#20
Personally, I don't think the GMs are scary. They are just people, like you or me.

I'm like the one GM, who speaks bluntly. That's usually how I do things. It keeps things nice and simple, so there are no misunderstandings.

I will agree that the Profile acceptance is a bit overly strict sometimes. Mainly because I like to rough in my character in a profile, then let the character evolve through RP. If it's all set down in the profile at the start, there is little room for evolution, unless you are simply changing what you already had down.

Now, back to the GMs not being scary. Go on, poke the bear. It makes you feel alive!!

*pokes Cressy*
Mistress Sylea Moonwhisper - Human - Azeroth Trade Syndicate
Baroness Ariannah Timaeus - Human - The Scourgebane Trinitus
Valishna- Draenei - Unaffiliated
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#21
Vrahn Wrote:you have to remember that being a GM does not entitle you to the respect of the player base,

It's our number one rule to respect everyone, not just GMs. We don't ask for respect as GMs, we ask it as people, which at the end of the day, we all are.

Vrahn Wrote:There is rarely a good reason to be angry, snappy, cold, etc. towards players who want to give you an idea, or are presenting creative work to you.

Rarely have I seen GMs go berserk over someone who put out an idea in a polite, constructive and thought out manner.

I could have put more down in response, but I'd rather not go on a ranting spree and risk a flame war. :>
"I am more afraid of one hundred sheep led by a lion than one hundred lions led by a sheep."
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#22
[Note: Looking back on this, this is a long, long post. For those interested in just the bare bones of what I'm trying to say, go from the bottom and scroll up.]

Alright, so...

I'm personally terrified of forums. Queer trait, but an honest one. However, shortly before I lost my ability to regularly appear on CotH (The server, not the forums,) I made a promise that I'd actually attempt to speak up and try and add something to a community that I have, by and large, truely come to enjoy.

So, in that vein, I'd like to try and add some thoughts into this matter.

I'm a relative newcomer to CotH. I joined the forums a scant few months ago, and came online a week or two after that. In the time, I watched the Grunt system be overhauled, got to see this whole Rommath thing start up, and met some GMs - both old and new.

Let us, for a moment, dispense with Mary-sue-isms, Godmodders, and other such nonsense that people throw fits over. That, in my eyes, is a different problem. The problem I wish to speak on is this rift that seems to exist between the wider playerbase and the GMs.

I, personally, was rather terrified of GMs when I spoke to the first GM I was aware of (the first time I met a GM doesn't count, as I had no idea they *were* a GM until long afterwards, and thus is a bad comparison). The reason, in large part, why I was terrified was because of the general attitude I'd seen expressed about GMs. This short of vibe of fear. This, combined with that fact that back on my server in live a GM appearing was sort of a message of doom from the heavens, meant that I would rather have given a public address in my undergarments than PM the GM.

The upshot was that it was a sane, calm, and reasonable conversation.

I did this again. The same result happened.

As I thought about this, I realized why the initial contact had been such a nerve-inducing experience. The problem is not singular, and - I think - is not helped on either end.

The problem is - Again, I postulate this, I have no *real* proof as I have not sat down and done studies - that the GMs are much akin to policemen.

Before anyone starts shouting, ranting, or talking about GMs, players, volunteering, or getting their knickers in a right twist please read on. I don't feel I'm unfounded in this, and my idea shouldn't be insulting to anyone if read and understood properly.

Where I am (some, unspecificed place,) and in all the places I've been. In so many medias and forms, I've seen this sort of fear of "The Authority". In part, this is because we are all silly monkeys, who want to do whatever we feel like. On a more human level, this fear makes a lot of sense because this is something that *we are not a part of*. That we *do not understand*, and that has, in the eyes of many, *vast power over us*.

Like the aforementioned policemen in this parallel, the GMs - especially to someone just coming on to the server (double so, from my live experiences,) were like clouds: unfathomable, knowable, with mysterious traits and movements and the ability to rain down a variety of things on me, from the wanted rain (items, levels, etc,) to damaging lightning (getting booted, banned, etc).

Now I have to skip back a bit.

I personally, like the police. I know someone who studies the police heavily. I learned to study the police from them. I learned a little about how the law works. I learned what the police are actually meant to do, what they can do, and the things they will often do. I spoke to police officers, got their opinions, learned how they thought of people and what they hoped to accomplish.

As I grew to understand them, I lost my fear of them. Were they powerful? Of course. Could they do something horrible to me? Absolutely. Would they? Hardly. Were they allowed to? No, not really. Did they even want anything from me other than my being an upstanding member of my community? Not at all.

Now, of course, there are crooked cops, bent fuzz, and mean officers. This is not the majority. Most simply want to do the job they came there to do - and would really prefer it if you were not part of that job.

As I spoke with some of the GMs, and learned not to fear them, I found my interactions with them were reasonable, relatively pleasant, and mostly satisfying. Have I seen a GM do something that made me groan? Of course I have. Sometimes, things get a bit out of hand. Sometimes, a person might feel like teasing someone when they oughtn't. But that doesn't blot out the fact that, from what I have seen, the GMs by and large are simply people trying to fulfill a function, and enrich their communities.

As players, I have seen the GMs held up as both semi-sacrosanct and objects of fear. As someone who did this, I encourage people to talk to the GMs. Calmly, reasonably, and with as open a mind as you can manage. If something doesn't make sense to you, *ask* without defensiveness, fear, or anger. Doubly so if you are afraid of GMs. The more you continue to act like they are something to be feared or evil overlords, the more you will inevitably make them wish to take putative action against you. They *shouldn't*, and probably won't, but it will taint and colour your interactions with them, on both ends.

The more something is known, the less it is feared. If we aren't interested in getting to know something we fear in an attempt to dispell that fear, we are agreeing complicity that the fear is a preferred thing. To all the newbies, I encourage you to talk to your GMs. Not just with problems, but say hello. Get to know one of them. The more we see them as people and not as powerful but removed entities the better off we will be.

The flip side of this is a problem that I have encountered since I have been here: I have yet to find an easy, newbie/user-friendly way to learn about what GMs actually *are*. I've slowly pieced together an understand over the time I've been here, but the lack of readily available information - perhaps as a wiki article - is hampering the process. As someone who wants to feel safe and comfortable around GMs it would go a long way to have something noted down in some cohesive form: What their responsibilities are. What they aren't. What the different types of GMs actually *do*. The fact that their are different types of GMs. How to use that little "Chatting with GM box" that some of you enjoy (which continue to completely mystify me). What sorts of things we can request of a GM, and what we shouldn't. The ambiguous "Talk to the GMs" statement is - to my ears - not helpful, and has always put me far more in mind of the ever-famous Spanish Inquisition than a group of empowered citizens eager to server those they were empowered to aid.

::looks up at the post::

...Lemme wrap this up by saying something sort of global to the GMs. This comes from my interactions with you, and my understanding (as incomplete as it may be) of what it is you do.

Please, please. ...Not as individuals. But as a general group, sit down and examine the way you communicate and use language. I am by no means placing the blame for this... Fear-mongering on your shoulders. But I say this because I feel it can be made better.

My own interactions with those of you I have spoke to have been nothing short of pleasant, and I've walked away with good feelings after each one. However, all of you belong to a collective group. This collective group, I think, is not optimally communicating itself to the general citizenry. It is not largely about what you say, or what you do in most respects. What am I getting at is how the group has come to relate to issues such as these.

Sayings like "Talk to the GMs" or "This is a GM issue" are not as helpful as other options. Not because it isn't true, or because it's ZOMG THEYRE GETTING THE BANHAMMER!, but because finalities such as these shut down the lines of communication without providing and understandable conclusion for the other party. I understand, as GMs, Admins, Etc, that you will make pronouncements. It comes with the territory. I understand that perhaps it is even policy to shut down communication along certain lines. But I would encourage you, as a group, to think about amending statements of this nature. I was told, once, by a GM, that if I ever had any more concerns to (if I'm remembering correctly,) "feel free to bring this sort of thing up with [me], and we can work them out". Perhaps such approach have been tried before in en masse - as I said I am new here. I don't know the server history. But from what I have experienced with people, and especially with masses, (and, non-GM players let's face it - I don't care how thin our collective physics are, we are a mass,) is that to simply shut down the lines of communication - without any elaboration, without any kind of information or understanding to work off of - will cause the mass to start muttering darkly.

If it has not been tried before, consider giving us, as players, some transparency. Even if the policies are stated, show us what you are acting off of. If we have been being uncommunicative, give us information and reasons to show us that this is a bad thing. CotH is meant to mature, understanding community. ...Perhaps I'm being too idealistic but I think we can live up to that, and I think that allowing us some transparency will help us work together better.

Other than that, good luck and thank you for your hard efforts. This whole mess seems to be a long-standing issue for CotH, and its something I'm sorry that both side have had to endure.


:: ::

...Because this post was huge, and some may have forgotten, gotten bored, or not wished to read the whole big mess I typed in there, I have summarized the contents here. There a many other tiny, nit-picky issues I have with this whole mess, but their mention will be largely unhelpful and, at the point I see this thing at, only server to hinder any advancement:

1) I'm a relative newbie on CotH
2) The GM/regular player split problem comes from fear of the GMs.
3) Players need to stop billing the GMs as things to fear
4) Players need to get to know a GM or two casually as players, not just as GMs or characters
5) Players need to take the responsibility on themselves to understand the community they move in
6) The GM/Admin community (the collective group, not the individuals,) needs to make itself easily understandable to players (the collective group,) especially newbies.
7) The GM/Admin community (the collective group, not the individuals,) needs to examine the way it communicates with the players (the collective group,) and to ensure that lines of communication are open (and, preferably, discreet)

That is the essentials of my suggestion and my theories. Admittedly my language in my summary is far more authoritative in list than in my actual post - this is because I don't know how to compress it down otherwise. As I have said in there, several times, this is postulation, and my own perspective on the problem. I can only hope it helps people think about the problem in a new light, and is useful to finding a resolution.

For those of you who actually went through the whole entire thing, thanks a bunch for reading. If you catch me online and ping me about it, I'll mail you a G. :D

Cheers,
-Rimewynd
Yes, I have a Companion Cube. It came with the software I use to do my job. Makes you wonder about their expectations for user's mental health, doesn't it?

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Because I privately yearn to be shu'halo?
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#23
More than anything else I'm trying to point out why things are like they are, and the root causes of any problems that are being seen. Yes respect is a rule, but there is a difference between respect in responses and true respect for the person behind it. It's kind of like the age old saying. "You attract more flies with honey than vinegar." It doesn't have to be berserk behavior, it just has to be any form of an unpleasant or 'cold' looking statement.

Creative work in particular upsets people when it is blatantly told to be bad with nothing good mentioned, which I think might be the reason a lot of people are bringing up profiles in this topic.

I am also sorry if I am sounding rude. :( It's not my intent by any means, which further proves my point is a very difficult one.
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#24
I'll just go out on a whim here and post in one of these threads for once. I rarely do post in threads that state problems such as these because I rarely encounter them myself, I hear people about them but I don't really see myself having many problems or any problems at all. It could be that I'm not as committed to the server as most of you are or I am really easy going. I also feel like I don't have enough words to string along something useful and something that would add to the discussion at hand but I'll give it a go.

The internet is a cold and harsh place that's not a great place for emotions. Emoticons don't cover real emotions and words easily get lost in the translation of player to keyboard that they don't seem fully comprehensing the situation at hand or they just seem blunt. My advice would be that people need to laugh and bare a smile at anything, really. I'm not so great at taking anything seriously, perhaps I could but I choose not to. Everything is much brighter when it's not as serious as some pretend it to be.

It's just a game! A pinch of Esalt is nice. A pinch of Esalt doesn't even have fatal drawbacks as far as I'm concerned!

[EDIT] Oh, right. I'm not that great at putting my thoughts/feeling onto paper or for this matter, screen. Perhaps also something to take into consideration?
Little by little, one travels far.
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#25
Hawk Wrote:I'm also going to be honest here: A minority of players do stupid things. I could list everything bad that's happened, but I'll just sum it up and say some are being difficult. When people do stupid things, *repeatedly*, it gets very annoying. One is because most can be resolved if they just took the time to read, and two because someone else can say the exact same thing and they'll go "FINALLY A GOOD ANSWER". I bet not a single person here can say they didn't get irritated by someone asking the same question over and over, when the answer was right infront their faces.

So I guess now we're talking about how GMs can be nicer in their convo, huh. Anyway my opinion for the nice serious Chat channel thing is that, I can vouch for this quote! Personally I've been doing my part answering questions of fairly new players in the chat channel. I somehow hate it to see my help being praised by the player but a GMs help gets overlooked. The main difference between a comment of mine and a comment of a GM is that I seem more friendly in an almost new player way of saying things too. GMs talk like, I dunno...one sentence words with a hard period that somewhat gets a blank response from a player. A blank response which garners no thanks from the player at hand. So that means, the next time a GM scolds that player, he has no past of the GM actually doing a good deed for him, in his mind. What do people like in their GMs? A good example is the Tip. Hey, the tip says nice things, saying it in exclamation points and words things in a cheery way. Tip is nice. Players would think that the GMs would talk like tip. The emoticons? Hey, they do help. I don't care if I seem like a noob when posting smiley faces on the Chat channel (I think Moonlight ranted hard about this by posting an attack in the server announcements though other than that it was due to her ranting from another fault of mine), I still do correct grammar. It makes the atmosphere more special here. Well, some GMs are doing this already, so I guess you're doing the right thing, in my opinion.

I personally see the GMs already getting irritated only when a said player repeats a question or do an offense over and over again...which is rational. Actually, you guys should be harder on that aspect, as Vrahn said. Less ranting from a GM about said offender and more kicking. Business is business, so that we can all move on.
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Main Characters:
Riggs Ravenhook - Swarmy Old Goblin Thief and Corporate Nuisance
Gorudo Goldforge - Goldforge Clan Remnant and Ranger
Turic Carsten - Stormwind Regular

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#26
Pfft, I don't care what anyone says, Emoticons definately lighten up even the most serious atmosphere. They definately go a long way towards making people sound more friendly. :P
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#27
Want to go off topic here a sec: I abuse TIP far too much. D:

What Vrahn said on emoticons is true.

And also, as a sidenote, you'd be surprised how much easier it makes our lives to even give us a simple thanks. Honestly. It cheers me up when people say thanks for the efforts.

EDIT: I don't mean to imply people don't, but I'll admit, when people don't, I actually get somewhat saddened. It just gives off a "Eh, you've done your job, now get lost" kind of feeling.
"I am more afraid of one hundred sheep led by a lion than one hundred lions led by a sheep."
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#28
Spoiler:
I had this huge post about why we have to be the way we are...And then I decided.

If you guys do not understand why we have to act the way we do during certain circumstances, then I am not going to tell you.

Ta-da.

We really are here to help, how ever bitchy and intimidating we sound. Wait, maybe I am the only bitchy one... But really, I have never denied a person who need help. Whether you guys are pming me screens, needing tickets filled, or just needing to talk, I am always here. I am not as big of a douche bag as I come off being.

And just because you asked for them.

:>
: D
: )
: P
C:
; )
^.^
:B
XD
: ]

Is that enough now?

<333
Cressy
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#29
This issue is brought up time and time again, and recently there's been concerns that...'oh lord, here we go again'. There is probably no way to solve this problem mostly because, it's just human nature to be timid/frightened/whatnot around the "higher-ups".

"But they're not "higher-ups", they're equals, cause we're all human, right?"
Right, but with all honesty would you complain to your boss -without- any ammount of fear or regret to do so? Sure, they're equal, but then again we can look at the green names, or the blue 'Blizz' sign, and think otherwise.

Respect is the best we can probably do to help make their job that much easier. It's a job, but one without pay. Why did they take the job? I think this is mostly because they care for the people whom they create events for and assist with problems.

Like other's have said: Mutual respect from players and GMs goes a long way, but it takes both of the groups in order for it to work. Because, in reality, we're all pretty much the same.

"Amidst the measureless grossness and the slag, nestles the seed of perfection."
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#30
I've never been one to really.. listen to anyone but myself. But people really need to understand Game Masters are here to help, and they were chosen for a reason. I will say they are not perfect, because nobody is.. but everyone expects them to be perfect, and it's wrong. You're not perfect, Nobody is. Furthermore, anyone that thinks they are, or others should be is nothing but foolish, and childish. Just my opinion.


With great power comes great responsibility, I understand. But some of the people here are taking it way too far.

The Gamemasters have seemed a little touchy lately, though. Just my opinion. You guys/gals need to learn to talk to the gamemasters honestly, throwing in some criticism. I'm sure they'll appreciate it. Alot of the community is being quite rude, not constructive, and not understanding it. It's sad, imo.
Who is evil, who is blind?
In the name of who you'll find
You're not supposed to question faith
But how do you accept this fate?
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youth-backhand
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