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Op-ed: Where's the WoW in CotH?
#16
The problem with this is how to make a slope. As of now, there are very few ways (none that I can think of off the top of my head) to naturally let a slope develop and to try to wedge one in is incredibly awkward. ... and difficult; people need to start climbing it once it's there, and making something like this happen suddenly from a state of nothing is... tricky, to say the least.

Any suggestions are welcome (though levels and the Prestige System are probably not the answer).
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#17
It's probably been said, but -

It's always been my experience that a slope does exist.

A terrifying slope of recognition.

There are characters on the server who, were their name mentioned, people would smile and remember all of the great things that happened around them. Characters who when their name is mentioned people would shudder and recount their tale of that day when they right and truly wrecked an entire group with ease. These are the characters who, when they make a claim to being capable of something, the only people to deny it are those foolish enough to have never heard about their exploits. Fear and respect - those are very real aspects that make up the curve on CotH.

And some people just don't have the time to make it anywhere on that slope.

Count me among them.
10,000 days in the fire is long enough,
You're going home...
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#18
(10-23-2013, 03:14 PM)Loxmardin Wrote: The problem with this is how to make a slope.

Hello Loxmardin. If you (and by "you" of course I don't just mean just you, Loxmardin, but anyone who reads this thread) are asking yourself this question, then I, for one, am quite satisfied. :)

Unfortunately, the fact remains that I am a lowly peon, which is to say that I only been here on CotH for one month. Other than the prestige system and the token system, which I only understand in concept from having browsed through the Wiki and forum archives, I don't know what you guys have tried in the past, and what worked and didn't work. As such, I am reluctant to propose my own ideas for a slope, since I don't possess enough background knowledge to make an informed decision.

But you guys, the veterans, you do have the background knowledge. Thus my goal with this op-ed was to persuade you long-timers into thinking about this problem in what I feel are the most salient terms: that is, in terms of slopes--not in terms of inept GMs, cliques, clunky events, or any such things that the discussion seems to be centered on currently.

From there, you may employ your years of experience here on CotH to conclude what kind of slope is best for the community. But before you can do that, you must first acknowledge and believe in what I have put forth here in this essay.

Quote:As of now, there are very few ways (none that I can think of off the top of my head) to naturally let a slope develop and to try to wedge one in is incredibly awkward. ... and difficult; people need to start climbing it once it's there, and making something like this happen suddenly from a state of nothing is... tricky, to say the least.

Without a doubt, going from flatland to slopeland will be tricky. You don't want to set the slope too steep that newbies are deterred from joining, nor you don't want to make the climb so important that a player can't have any fun at all until he's climbed it. But there must be some balance, and only your collective brainpower and experience as a veteran community can figure out what balance is best--or if no balance is best at all. Again, there is always always the option to leave CotH unchanged, so long as you accept the implications of doing so.

(10-23-2013, 03:35 PM)Esthrunil Wrote: Fear and respect - those are very real aspects that make up the curve on CotH.

Most certainly! "Community rep" is, as I mentioned, a form of slope. Even something as simple as Peon -> Gruntship is a form of slope. But as real as these may be, they are ultimately insufficient. Community rep in particular is a very long-term, intimidating, and invisible sort of slope that a newbie can't wrap his head around at all ("I just started here yesterday and everybody around me is a longtime veteran! How am I ever supposed to be as well-respected in the community as someone who's been here for three years?").
_____________________________________

Needs moar slopes imo
Needs moar archaeology imo
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#19
This topic reminds me of an old saying:

"The number one killer of old people is retirement."

In our case, a character "retires" when they have reached their pinnacle. It could be a pinnacle of strength, or pinnacle of socio-economic power, or pinnacle of personal growth. As my own time has progressed on this server, I recently noticed a trend in my character development.

I've been profiling a ton of "retired" characters. Characters that are already at their pinnacles, and whose stories are already told. I'd wager that I'm not alone in this phenomena, and I think this addresses another oft-mentioned problem: players logging in primarily for events. If a character is at the end of their development, there isn't much else for them to do save show up to beat up a bad guy once in a blue. There is no learning or growing in between, no goals.

A wise man named @therew once told me about having members of his guild establish goals, and his events would do their best to work towards those goals, while the RP in-between is what strengthened the bonds between characters. Each one helped the other, and when internal strife arose, created a tension as to whether they'd lose the bonds that were aiding them. It was a circle of growth. It was the slope.

Having been around for prestige, there's something to be said about the storytelling generated from the training aspect of it. I think the biggest fault of the system was the insistence on roll bonuses and implied power over others. I think what was inevitably lost were the reasons for taking on those classes in the first place, and how the prestige should not be an end, but a beginning.

So my idea is this: to integrate the goal into the character making process. I'd suggest that as a part of the character profiles, add the following:

  1. Name one short-term goal of your character.
  2. Name one long-term goal of your character.

The benefit is two-fold: players get the chance to dwell on what will be driving their characters and may stop to consider if they've even given that character room to grow, and the team will have the opportunity to see what types of RP players are most interested in by the goals they wish to see fulfilled.

Likewise, Forum Helpers will be able to aid players by offering suggestions based on the goals. The goals themselves may not be something to consider for whether a profile gets approved or not (barring something extremely outlandish, like "my goal is to run through Darnassus hand-in-hand with Queen Sylvannas and pick flowers"), but it does give some insight as to where development will lead. The answers themselves don't even have to be specific (it can be something like "to rise from rags to riches"). It only needs to serve as a guide to which either similar-minded characters could meet, or events and random world developments could raise choices towards.

That's all I got for now!
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#20
A prestige system isn't needed to have training rp. Despite the fact that all player characters are considered equal, if you make a character made to be weaker then others, opportunity arises. I don't know if this is a slope or not but I said it in the Inactivity as of late thread. Training rp. It's an amazing way to promote bonds between characters and advance them. I've done it quite a few times and the most successful was a baldemaster training rp (Despite the fact that RL got in the way of that being more) and a swordmaster training rp (There is a difference). I love training rp, and I try to host it when I can. Retired characters in the sense that they've reached their goal can train other people, giving them a reason to rp again and foster more rp.

Is this a slope? No idea, but it'll allow anyone to rp. I'll most likely make a personal thread about training rp simply because I enjoy it.
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#21
So @Jonoth it was the roll bonuses and power struggle that led to the failure of the prestige system, in your opinion? I genuinely don't know the answer, of course, since I wasn't around for it. Would you say, then, that the community is unwilling to accept a slope based upon power?

There are, of course, plenty of other tangible, motivating elements both in-game and meta-game upon which to base a slope besides power in the form of roll bonuses.

If past experience dictates that power-based slopes (of which prestige and levels are a subset) are poorly tolerated by the community, then without a doubt we should focus on other kinds of slopes, be they wealth-based slopes, gear-based slopes, or any other kind (there are many others). But again, this is something that only you guys--the veterans--can conclude.

(10-23-2013, 04:56 PM)Jonoth Wrote: A wise man named @therew once told me about having members of his guild establish goals, and his events would do their best to work towards those goals, while the RP in-between is what strengthened the bonds between characters. Each one helped the other, and when internal strife arose, created a tension as to whether they'd lose the bonds that were aiding them. It was a circle of growth. It was the slope.

Now, please don't take this as an offense, and please do correct me if you feel I am in the wrong, but this is the sort of thing I think about when I think of "intangible" or "imaginary" slopes.

Consider: this form of slope relies upon roleplaying in a setting and with a community that supports one's goals--and so without the proper setting or community, this system loses steam.

For example, the short-term goal of Peebles the Paladin is to beat the snot out of undead and demons. The long term goal of Peebles the Paladin is to achieve fame and recognition for his heroic acts of valor in service of the Light. Thus, if Peebles the Paladin is perpetually placed in a position of peace (lol), that is to say, in the absence of a setting involving vanquishing evil and a community (guild) around him to laud him for his exploits, none of his goals will be satisfied.

Additionally, there's still nothing tangible for Peebles to strive toward. If, for whatever reason, Peebles becomes separated from his community (for example, if his guild becomes inactive), he effectually loses all that he has achieved. Thus the player is committed to Peebles only insofar as his guild stays active; when the guild winds down, Peebles can be retired or deleted, for all the player cares.

(10-23-2013, 05:22 PM)Kage Wrote: A prestige system isn't needed to have training rp. Despite the fact that all player characters are considered equal, if you make a character made to be weaker then others, opportunity arises.

Very similar to what Jonoth is talking about.

NOTE: the stuff written below is NOT reflective of any sort of sentiment of mine to bring the prestige system back; I am merely using it for the sake of an example of a concrete/tangible slope.

No, a prestige system isn't needed to have training RP, but it is needed to have a gain to a training RP. Yes, you can set a limit on your character and make him weaker, but everyone knows--even you know--that nothing is really happening there, or if is, it's all in the mind of you and your trainer. So when something (like real-life, for example) gets in the way, and you can't meet with your trainer anymore, you're forced to face the reality that your character hasn't actually advanced an inch other than in your own imagination. Thus, you're free to retire your character or kill him off as you wish, since you could just as easily start over with another one--you wouldn't really lose any ground.

But with a prestige system, you do have an achievement. You're a prestige class! You get to wield fancy gears and armors and have powers. Everyone--even people who weren't there for your training RP--recognizes that you went through the rigorous training to get as far as you are now. And, moreover, you can't so easily just retire your prestige character and start over; you put a lot of work into it, and you'd be going back to square one!

Once again, I do NOT mean this as a support of the prestige system. It is a power-based slope, and apparently people here don't like power-based slopes. But it is a useful example of a concrete or tangible slope; your achievement is not merely a concept in the minds of yourself and the people who happened to be there during your roleplay, but rather it bears tangible rewards that everyone recognizes and appreciates.
_____________________________________

Needs moar slopes imo
Needs moar archaeology imo
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#22
I started the prestige system before it was structured properly, which would've been... Ages ago, and I wrote some 30,000 words for his training before I left. I'd be totally happy for something like that to come back, even though I probably won't personally be interested in a prestige class. I've got more boring with time, I'd much rather see how my characters react to legitimately more powerful ones, especially if they don't like it.




Move him into the sun—
Gently its touch awoke him once,
At home, whispering of fields half-sown.
Always it woke him, even in France,
Until this morning and this snow.
If anything might rouse him now
The kind old sun will know.

Think how it wakes the seeds,—
Woke, once, the clays of a cold star.
Are limbs, so dear-achieved, are sides,
Full-nerved—still warm—too hard to stir?
Was it for this the clay grew tall?
—O what made fatuous sunbeams toil
To break earth’s sleep at all?
[Image: 62675bf4fd.jpg] [Image: 0e7357dcfe.jpg]
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#23
Jonoth Wrote:So my idea is this: to integrate the goal into the character making process. I'd suggest that as a part of the character profiles, add the following:

Name one short-term goal of your character.
Name one long-term goal of your character.




The benefit is two-fold: players get the chance to dwell on what will be driving their characters and may stop to consider if they've even given that character room to grow, and the team will have the opportunity to see what types of RP players are most interested in by the goals they wish to see fulfilled.

I'd just like to interrupt this normally-scheduled conversation to state that these two paragraphs have all of my 'yes'. @Jonoth , I'd take this as far as maybe consulting the GM team and seeing if this is a template change that could be tangible.
[Image: 4ab673a110e5324a7acf57e330a6c8eb.jpg]
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#24
I've subscribed to this topic now.
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#25
Quote:Additionally, there's still nothing tangible for Peebles to strive toward. If, for whatever reason, Peebles becomes separated from his community (for example, if his guild becomes inactive), he effectually loses all that he has achieved. Thus the player is committed to Peebles only insofar as his guild stays active; when the guild winds down, Peebles can be retired or deleted, for all the player cares.

That's a problem I face when it comes to guild. New ones pop up and old ones get rebooted quite frequently, the storyline and RP it provides is often great. Ties people together, sets a goal for the characters and an environment to try and achieve it in. .. But they collapse so often. Be it due to real life, lost interest from the leaders, conflicting members goals/personalities in the guild itself (e.g. The army private who always badmouths the sergeant with a decade of experience because of chaotic alignment.), along with a ton of other reasons, that I've lost more then a handful of characters that were set onto a guild path. (Whether they were specifically rolled for that guild or not.) With everyone vanishing, my toons have nothing to fall back upon and are met with complete disinterest. Cassie my most recent one.
Edit: (Which, upon rereading, is pretty much what you just said so an "Yup, that's how it works." would have sufficed.)

I still like guilds, don't get me wrong; I've never been unable to keep a guild alive, and with me, sadly many others. Thus far I've just avoided them.

A thought regarding guilds; Give them limited control over an area if the guild meets certain prerequisites. Member count, activity, goals of the guild and reasoning as to why they'd act in/around that area. Not just for events, but alter the area to what they are doing during events and keep it that way afterwards. (But that strives us back into 'custom lore' and all.)

Iunno, I'd like to see an evil Forsaken guild be stationed in an area (pre existing one or not) and slowly see the world around them corrupt when untouched due to experiments. A holy guild who liberates a town somewhere and proceeds to aid in rebuilding, with materials and NPC's being re-added over time along with buildings or such. Limited commands such as NPC chatter (also mentioned in the other thread as puppeteers) or similar. I realize that ain't perfect and GM commands probably won't be given out. But guild need a slope/progression as well. Area control would be a good way to do it me thinks, can even create guilds fighting guilds to capture/defend certain areas. (Think that was also suggested in the other thread by @Kage, fate events from GW2 or so? Someone else as well even further back in that thread, only recall Kage as I'm still waking up.) To add to that; Don't limit them to GM leadership, there's just not enough activity to do so. Have players take up on the roles, start with perhaps two guilds, and if activity picks up, expand.
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#26
(10-24-2013, 04:34 AM)Psychyn Wrote: A thought regarding guilds; Give them limited control over an area if the guild meets certain prerequisites. Member count, activity, goals of the guild and reasoning as to why they'd act in/around that area. Not just for events, but alter the area to what they are doing during events and keep it that way afterwards. (But that strives us back into 'custom lore' and all.)

...

A holy guild who liberates a town somewhere and proceeds to aid in rebuilding, with materials and NPC's being re-added over time along with buildings or such. Limited commands such as NPC chatter (also mentioned in the other thread as puppeteers) or similar.

All this has been done, actually!

The Argent Crusade and Hearthglen.

The Commoner's Party and Eastvale.

Solidarity and Solidarity Row.

Thornsong Coven and the ruined (now rebuilding) Solidarity Row.

The Argent storyline pre-Cata generated so much RP, Hearthglen gave me a headache. Commoner's Party struggled, though it's hard to say why. Solidarity was great, seeing it develop. And my current work with the Coven rebuilding the Row is bringing fun to Duskwood, if I do say so myself.
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#27
Quote:The Commoner's Party and Eastvale.

I recall that being firmly disliked when I was in the actual party from a GM side, not sure why any more. Probably because we recaptured the mine in Elwynn back when questing was still a thing. (Which by now, no longer is a factor.) As for the others, I haven't witnessed them considering the Argent Crusade doesn't really interest me. Wasn't here for Solidarity row, at least. I know its in Duskwood but missed any events regarding that. I did RP in it briefly (Think it was Solidarity at least? Some added place in Duskwood) with my elf bounty hunter tracking a insane Mage as mini event.

Was it done with some temporary commands in the sense that guild leaders were able to affect the land around them directly after events and such? I seem to have missed that experiment then. Damn. Seems I've been out of the loop a little as I've only been part of the Commoner's party ages back. (Which I forgot about fully.) Thanks for the reminder of that, it was great to be part of. A camp was set up at that mine but that's about it if I recall right. It's so far back. :|

Edit: Was under the belief that stuff wasn't going on any more with the last event I attended being the Northshire reclamation one. Only attended one out of all the events, but it was great fun. Then the unphase happened, all the stuff happened was cleared up and NPC's reappeared again. I just checked Nortshire out, and the place actually has changed. So. Disregard my post, wasn't aware it was already happening.

With that said, I give up. I got no other ideas any more. No point for me to keep postin' <3
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#28
As a note I've made people purposely weaker myself. There -is- something there when I start subtracting from my own rolls or even just constantly taking blows because I made the person weaker. Don't discredit the power of imagination.

Quote:So when something (like real-life, for example) gets in the way, and you can't meet with your trainer anymore, you're forced to face the reality that your character hasn't actually advanced an inch other than in your own imagination. Thus, you're free to retire your character or kill him off as you wish, since you could just as easily start over with another one--you wouldn't really lose any ground.

Simply killing off or retiring a character isn't an easy thing to do. This is why not a lot of characters are ever killed. There's a point in which your character has advanced so far that to just restart is a hassle.


On the topic of guilds, I'd think you'd be hard pressed to get anyone who was from the Dawns Reach to tell me there wasn't advancement. The way I made it was so if life did get in the way it could still run. Of course a ban is a different story, and why the Reach died. Advancement in the guild was easy, but at the same time hard. Until you went to an actual mini event that was thrown (They were hosted every day pretty much) your member wouldn't be apart of the guild. But you didn't have to be there for every event to know what was going on either.

I figure it sounds like I'm tooting my own horn, but I'm really not. If it wasn't for the people who actually rped in the guild to rp it wouldn't have gotten anywhere. There were 20 active members and 4 of them were my assistants if you will who helped run the guild, made events, and generally got rp going. I've yet to see another guild like that, and it's only because people make so many of their own guilds for similar reasons to others just so they can be the leader or even because they didn't know the other existed. Guild rp can be amazing, and I want a guild again that isn't run by just one person, but three or four so it does say active.

If it made any sense, get a guild that anyone can join. The first thing that pops into my head is @Krilari Argent Crusade. There's a lot of potential there and anyone can join. I'd love to see it become active and have a place people can rp and advance without issue.
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#29
(10-23-2013, 04:56 PM)Jonoth Wrote: wordswordswords

To concur with Jonoth here, I've been meaning to write up a roleplaying guide that hits this issue right on the head: GOALS.

But more specifically, stories. Every character should have a story, a hook, even if its just a small one. Like Jonoth said, a long and short term goal are ideal basics to set. Too many people just RP as a supporting character - sure, they have a really solid personality, a strong foundation in lore, hell they might even be excellently written... but without a story, a directon, the they're at best a supporting character assuming they get caught in someone else's story, and if they don't they're just a prop.

Stories don't all have to be huge epic tales, or fantastic gripping dramas - hell, they don't even need to be outright obvious, they just need to be present to provide motivation to role play the character. Ideally, everyone is their own main character, and likewise the people they attract are their supporting cast... and vice versa.

To name some of my examples...

Cristovao and Maeia are the stars of their own story which involves the estranged relationship between a mother and son who happen to be on opposite sides of the fence as it were - nevermind the supplemental undead/paladin emotional drama. This then breaks off into their own seperate stories: Cristovao's facing adversity for his way of thinking and figuring out what's "right"; Maeia discovering her place in a world that hates her and would see her dead if she doesn't assert her own strength.

Then there's people who role play with them, supporting their stories and also building bridges to their own. Matthew works as Cristovao's contrast, providing conflict but also friendship over their different points of view; Balverine as Cristovao's lancer, who shares in goals but can't match his idealism, and Jared as an emotional an ideological rival over war, peace, and homeland.

And in TURN, Cristovao becomes a supporting character for THEIR stories as much as they supported HIS story: a naive but well meaning best friend for Matthew; the idealistic hope Balverine has lost; and a source of contention and doubt in Jared's rose-tinted vision of Lordaeron... and this is just scratching the surface! Nevermind that interaction with all of these characters opens doors for Cristovao to get RP with OTHER characters who ALSO interact with them (the Colemann family RPed by Immy; Alicia RPed by Scout; Clovis RPed by Clovis to list a few) and get involved in THEIR stories as well.

And that's just Cristovao, nevermind my other estalished characters like Hrodebert, Gantrithor, Maeia, Hercynian... the list goes on, and some chars got more connections than others. Role play is not a one way street, or even a two way street. It is an intricate web of relationships, friends, enemies, acquaintances, and more, all intricately intertwined and supporting one another. Some more strongly than others, but all connected.
Your stories will always remain...
[Image: nIapRMV.png?1]
... as will your valiant hearts.
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#30
Actually I play WoW because it's what I'm used to and because of that it's hard to change to anything else. There are many, many games out there that do EVERYTHING better than WoW. Better graphics, better gameplay, better story, and even free to play. But I still play it because I have for years and I am used to it. It's what I know.

But I certainly don't play it for any sort of slope. If anything I look for ways to make the slope a little less steep, and Blizzard provides. The slope is not nearly as unforgiving as you make it out to be. With heirlooms you can gain up to 45% extra experience. With a potion from a rare in Pandaria you can gain 300% experience for an hour. And with Refer a Friend, you can earn 300% xp for two months as long as you keep both accounts active with the characters in a party and close to one another, as well as within a certain level range.

All in all, you can get from level 1 to max in a single week of playing. And that doesn't mean 178 hours of playtime. That means 7 days of the week, playing for maybe 6 hours a day. If you really work at it, you'll reach max level. And then, once you reach that max level most of those shiny epics are handed out to you like a charity. So the slope has dropped so much that you can almost just sit down and roll a wheelchair up it.

The point of saying all this, is to say that I don't play for a sense of accomplishment when I reach the top of the slope. I play for everything that comes from rolling down the other side. The slope gives me no sense of accomplishment. It's like an annoying bug that you have to get rid of before you can get to the part that you came for. Of course, I have 8 characters at max level on retail... so yeah, I have gotten quite tired of the slope and get absolutely no accomplishment at all.

I only get a feeling of "Great, now that that is over I can start the fun part."

And so do many other people.

(10-24-2013, 05:17 AM)c0rzilla Wrote:
(10-24-2013, 04:34 AM)Psychyn Wrote: A thought regarding guilds; Give them limited control over an area if the guild meets certain prerequisites. Member count, activity, goals of the guild and reasoning as to why they'd act in/around that area. Not just for events, but alter the area to what they are doing during events and keep it that way afterwards. (But that strives us back into 'custom lore' and all.)

...

A holy guild who liberates a town somewhere and proceeds to aid in rebuilding, with materials and NPC's being re-added over time along with buildings or such. Limited commands such as NPC chatter (also mentioned in the other thread as puppeteers) or similar.

All this has been done, actually!

The Argent Crusade and Hearthglen.

The Commoner's Party and Eastvale.

Solidarity and Solidarity Row.

Thornsong Coven and the ruined (now rebuilding) Solidarity Row.

The Argent storyline pre-Cata generated so much RP, Hearthglen gave me a headache. Commoner's Party struggled, though it's hard to say why. Solidarity was great, seeing it develop. And my current work with the Coven rebuilding the Row is bringing fun to Duskwood, if I do say so myself.

But if I recall, and I could be completely wrong but... weren't most if not all of those guilds run by GMs? I believe I remember it being stated that only powerful groups such as the Argent Crusade could own territory as a guild, and those guilds would only be run by GMs.
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