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Religion, Spirituality,Gods ans Demons
#31
For those of you who have not played Warcraft 1 or 11 know that the old clerics, priests, and paladin units, even when you clicked the church sang praises to God... now I am entirely saying that yes, the Holy Light was originially God, like God god.

http://www.wowpedia.org/God%20Light%20wa...ust%20God!
Quote:God is a being mentioned in some legends of Azeroth. In some beliefs he is said to have been creator of the universe, the Maker.W3Man #?[1][2] His emissaries are said to be apostles and angels.W1Man #? God and "heavens" are implied to be at odds with demons. God is able to see in an all encompassing fashion. He sees the world with extreme clarity, and only a fraction of the power would blind mere mortals.W1Man #?
God was said to have been revered by the Clerics of Northshire.W1Man #? During the Second War, churches sang hymns to "Give thanks unto God."[3]
The Knight of the Silver Hand called Duncan Senturus believed in a higher power that could choose paths for people, and believed evil actions were ungodly.

However, overtime this changed in Warcraft 3 and they simply called it the Light. My main reason for believing this is because Blizzard did not want to upset any other religions or, excuse me for saying I am not trying to be offensive, atheist or agnostics etc.
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#32
It is an official retcon, like you said, they didn't want to upset anyone, and changed it from god to the Holy Light.
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#33
Cepht, I'm afraid that there is no certainty on that specific situation. While priests do not need to follow the rules that paladins do (due to the fact that the definition of what a priest is changes depending on culture), there is evidence that priestly followers of the Light may have to do so. However, their potential use of the Shadow indicates that there is more flexibility in this than would normally be granted to a paladin.

In this situation, I don't believe that "shadow" necessarily has to refer to "fel" energy (in other words, demonic energy which is actually perverted arcane magic). It instead refers to a power than can be harnessed from any number of planes. As such, a priest who uses the Shadow doesn't necessarily have to be of an evil alignment (though this shouldn't restrict players from not having evil priests!).

I'd like to provide an example, though it's not necessarily on point. My kal'dorei priestess, Rahel, was a Sister of Elune who lived through the Sundering. At the time, the Sisters focused primarily on their worship of Elune and utilized her powers more as healers than anything else. It was Tyrande Whisperwind who allowed them to realize that their powers had other uses -- which were definitely put to use in the War of the Ancients. Rahel (who had, admittedly, suffered quite a bit from recent happenings) embraced this concept and pursued study of her offensive powers in order to aid her friends, family, and kin. I never interpreted this to mean that she was evil.

Cepht Wrote:This leads to anothe question, given a blood elf priest who Either becomes a priest under false pretenses, or changes Alignment after being trained, should that character be Rp'd as not having any priestly abilities at all ?

While technically a priest could harness power from a source Other than the holy light, I am under the impression that this Is not allowed ( with the exception of one that turns to fel for power )

Lastly, if I am on the right track, if a priest abandons his faith , can he Repent later and return to good standing, fully empowered?
There is absolutely nothing that I can think of offhand that would prevent you from pursuing this path with your sin'dorei priest. As I noted, use of the Shadow doesn't necessarily mean being evil, but (but, but, but!) this is absolutely an option and an interesting idea to explore. The idea of a fallen priest who turns to a perversion of his powers sounds like a fascinating concept and would provide a lot of potential in roleplay.

Go with it, if you'd like! And if you find that you need helping in developing this concept, I'm sure that there are many loremongers that would enjoy the exercise.


Amerason Wrote:However, overtime this changed in Warcraft 3 and they simply called it the Light. My main reason for believing this is because Blizzard did not want to upset any other religions or, excuse me for saying I am not trying to be offensive, atheist or agnostics etc.
There are two stances on this, since there was no official word on why this was done. The first is precisely what you've outlined, sir Amerason. It's also the most prevalent opinion. The latter (and the one that I like to embrace, for selfish reasons), is that worship of a God was limited to a select group of followers and that interest waned over the last three decades.

I say selfish because my paladin, Aliz Bastian, is actually one of those few remaining worshipers and refers to God occasionally. It amuses me!
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#34
Power of the Light is connected to conviction; if I am suffering from a paranoid dellusions and that think that my family are undead wretches, I mean really believe and fear them for it. Then I'd be able to harness the Light to smite 'em. As someone said, it is a question of faith. Another good example is how it becomes a upward spiral.

I believe and therefore powers manifest, which is proof for me that the force exists and affect, so I become stronger in my conviction and so does the power along with it.


To assume that any priest can switch between Light and Shadow or any other practice is in my oppinion total bulltoot. These two conecpts of energies might have an important correlation when viewing the Warcraft world on a metaphysical level, but not when it comes to our characters and their beliefs. With the naaru the Light got a tad more clearer will, something the Shadow still lack. Shadow is not some corrupting force that catch fallen priests and turn them. They are both faiths just as any other, one cannot easily go flipping back and forth over the course of a year or two.

Quote:However, their potential use of the Shadow indicates that there is more flexibility in this than would normally be granted to a paladin.
I am afraid that this way of thinking is faulty. Priest as a class is a game mechanic, reflecting Holy Light and Forgotten Shadow; not voodoo, or sunworship or rune-clericing or anything. To assume that priests are the only ones who could wield shadow and become shadowpriets we make them born super, and then suddenly this is not about faith anymore.

As I see it priest of any race and kind are the ones that have had the chance and belief-aptitude to be blessed with powers from respective diety cause here is a kicker; priests power in general are the only class in the game that in fully rely on their faith. Druidism, shamanism, geomancy and so on are things you can still do without having to be of a certain convction, they are allowed to doubt the world they live in and not loose power.

Someone also wrote that 'sin' according to the Light is not deemed by action and I to a degree agree. If my draenei for example was in a hurry and did not see that bleeding homeless he'd not be affected by not helping that man. But if he did see the injured man and decide there was no time or that something else was more important but not 100% true in his choice in that moment, it will affect his powers as long he carries that doubt. It always comes back to ones mind.
One could think of it a bit like war; who do you give the gun to, the secure sharpshooter or the one with doubts about killing?


EDIT: But I cannot deny that it would be easier to convert from Light to Shadow or vice versa compared to changing to Voodoo or Elune.
(02-24-2012, 10:15 AM)Piroska Wrote: Conspiracy. That's all it is; Kret's afraid that your pure, digital awesomeness would crash the server if it were allowed.
(06-14-2013, 05:42 PM)McKnighter Wrote: Bovel, Lord of Beards

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Causticity Blackbreath Goblin Alchemist -
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#35
Bovel, what you don't realize is, to be a Shadow Priest you don't need to have a faith. That energy is drawn through a rift to your plane of reality from the Shadow Plane. Can't really think now, its a bit late, will expand on the post later!
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#36
I never intended to suggest that one should flip-flop between being a shadow priest or a holy priest out of convenience. I would consider that sort of change to be very fishy without sound justification and solid RP to support it. I cannot think of a scenario off the top of my head that would justify this ... When speaking about a priest that sins in an epic way and repents I was thinking perhaps one such event during the course of his lifetime.

I found a very interesting link that has not been mentioned yet so I figured I would post in just an case someone else uses this thread for reference:

http://www.wowpedia.org/Divine_magic

This section does clarify some of the discussion regarding faith. It also mentions that a priest should subject himself to various public tests of faith. The kind of test would depend on the kind of priest. Such tests could also provide some rather entertaining RP opportunities for sadistic characters. I see a lot of interesting possibilities here. Heh heh .. "Meat on the bone" so to speak.

Also worth mentioning .. on the demonic side of the topic, it seems a bit odd that a sin'dorei priest and paladin will follow the holy light, yet they do not oppose blood elves that use fel magic (ie. warlocks). Likewise they still detest humans and dwarves even though these alliance members also follow the holy light.

I wonder how much wiggle room there is here .. For example, might it be fitting for a sin'dorei priest or paladin to have mercy on an alliance member because of their shared faith. Likewise would it be fitting for a priest or paladin to denounce a fellow blood elf for practicing fel magic.. ?

My guess is that these are gray areas that are open to the player's discretion...


Thank you everyone who gave feedback in this post. The links and discussion have been very helpful.
- Cepht -

Randian - Sin'dorei Priest, Representative of Greystone Charities
Riley Gillespie aka "Stars" - Unhinged forsaken vagabond with a flare for fire
Alonus - Fallen holy priest with a pet serpent named "Ricky"
Haugus Bach - Forsaken Warlock with an appetite for torture and revenge. Previously a humble shoe maker.
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#37
Aphetoros Wrote:Bovel, what you don't realize is, to be a Shadow Priest you don't need to have a faith. That energy is drawn through a rift to your plane of reality from the Shadow Plane. Can't really think now, its a bit late, will expand on the post later!
Are you sure that is Warcraft universe? If so I'd really ike to find your source cause I have not found it on WowWiki. And by that you say that warlocks can avoid corruption if they avoid fel and that they wield the same thing as Cult of the Forgotten Shadow, but that forsaken really don't need to have their faith?

Cepht; As for mercy on alliance I think that it is something that can vary among characters, what SHOULD vary among characters.
(02-24-2012, 10:15 AM)Piroska Wrote: Conspiracy. That's all it is; Kret's afraid that your pure, digital awesomeness would crash the server if it were allowed.
(06-14-2013, 05:42 PM)McKnighter Wrote: Bovel, Lord of Beards

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Causticity Blackbreath Goblin Alchemist -
Telaah Draenei Anchorite Writings of an Anchorite

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#38
http://www.wowpedia.org/Shadow_(magic_school)

The key portion of that is;

Quote:The shadow energy (aka Shadow Plane) is not limited to a single plane; it is instead an integral part of every aspect of the universe, woven into every plane. Thus, spells that call upon this energy, such as shadow conjuration, draw upon local sources rather than reaching to another plane.

So it's obviously not drawn from another plane, and it's not a religious sort of spell power, instead it's more akin to Arcane magic in a way. However, I do know what Aphetoros is talking about with the opening of rifts into the shadow plane to obtain shadow magic. I can't seem to find the source however...
"Every gun..."

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"...Makes its own tune."


~ The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly ~
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#39
Again, do you say that there are not Cult of the Forgotten Shadow or shadow priests in general. That all are just desillusioned shadowmages/warlocks?
(02-24-2012, 10:15 AM)Piroska Wrote: Conspiracy. That's all it is; Kret's afraid that your pure, digital awesomeness would crash the server if it were allowed.
(06-14-2013, 05:42 PM)McKnighter Wrote: Bovel, Lord of Beards

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Causticity Blackbreath Goblin Alchemist -
Telaah Draenei Anchorite Writings of an Anchorite

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#40
I think it's more that Shadow is a source of energy that doesn't necessarily have to be evil. It's like owning a gun: a gun is a tool and so inherently lacks the ability to be good or evil; it's how an individual uses it that defines what it is.

Remember, the word Shadow doesn't have to be synonymous with the word fel. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.
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