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#31
(08-24-2013, 10:40 AM)Grakor456 Wrote: The supposed Trials of the High King aren't even trials for him, because he already knows all of the lessons and is having no difficulty doing anything.

Let me fix it!!!!
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#32
(08-23-2013, 07:03 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: It really doesn't have much to do with Taran Zhu. He just really only makes it worse (because he says that trolls and tauren are the honorable ones. Orcs aren't allowed to be good guys anymore, and all.) Again, it's all in the framing. And Blizzard's basically done nothing but hit orcs with the villain bat since Cata.

Well he also says "and others"... and while the orc NPCs have little to offer, you can't completely ignore Orc -player characters- who do the quests to stop Garrosh.

But, I digress, because those are small glimmers of hope in the badness.
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#33
I don't think it's butchering at all. It's very natural character progression. COOKIE cutter even.
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#34
Garrosh was set up since Cataclysm to be easy to hate. I feel as though it's a bit of a cheap, trending tactic to set up a character you know and are fed to hate to become evil - or be revealed to be evil. I'm not surprised with what path Blizzard took on this at all, ever since Cataclysm it was pretty apparent Garrosh was going to be reduced to a raid boss (if not Sylvanas). But, it'll all work out in the end, I'm sure.
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#35
(08-24-2013, 02:33 AM)Rensin Wrote: I uh.

I like the lore changes and the storylines currently? *Braces for impact*

I do too, Rensin. But what I don't like is:

-Suddenly, Garrosh just throws away all of his learned morals and the remaining advisers he has disappear.
-Garrosh is seen like a big bad guy
-Suddenly, Garrosh is all about power
-OLD HORDE? WAT
-Mag'har pour out of Grommash Hold as Kor'kron Overseers like a plague
-Wasn't the Kor'kron informed to slay Garrosh if this happened? COUGH COUGH
-The Kor'kron is a personal bodyguard of Garrosh.. not a huge strike force.

Alliance:
-Look like heroes
-Slaughter Orcs in the beginning of landing on Jade Forest.
-Pandaren follow them around like fangirls
-Horde is forced to look like villains, when they don't know the other side of the story.

BUT, I digress. There's always another page to the story.
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#36
From all that I'm hearing.. Sounds like Jaina's gonna be the new 'evil' once Garrosh is dealt with, AMIRITE?
Frogspawned: RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
Frogspawned: Frogspawned flips a table.
Frogspawned: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

FROG, STOP FLIPPING TABLES. YOU'RE MAKING A MESS.

Frogspawned: ┬─┬ ノ( ゜-゜ノ)
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#37
Completely unrelated to the lore, but... the music when the chest was being dragged out of the tunnels gave me the chills. Just me?
"I am more afraid of one hundred sheep led by a lion than one hundred lions led by a sheep."
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#38
(08-24-2013, 09:32 AM)Memnoch Wrote: This article is for Garrosh.

This one's for Varian.

They are meant to be read in that order. Food for thought :3

I highly recommend these to everyone reading this thread, seriously. In fact, it explains, from what could -almost- be considered a psychological point of view, why it is that Garrosh is the way he is, and even Varian, to a degree.

Here's a snippet of what I mean, spoiler'd for a wall of text that's relevant :)

Spoiler:
Garrosh Hellscream:
"I understand battle, yes," he said. "Tactics, how to rally troops -- these things I know. Let me serve that way. Find me a foe to face and defeat, and you will see how proudly I will continue to serve the Horde. But I know nothing of politics, of ... of ruling. I would rather have a sword in my fist than a scroll!" -- The Shattering

And perhaps the most painful realization to all of this is that Garrosh Hellscream absolutely knew he was not capable of leading. When Thrall approached him with the position, the normally proud Hellscream nearly shut down. He pointed out his weaknesses, yet Thrall insisted that as far as he was concerned, Garrosh loved the Horde, and that was enough. He reassured Garrosh, and talked him into taking a position that he was not even remotely prepared to take.

If you really want to know whose hands are stained with the blood of Theramore, I suggest you look at Thrall, not Garrosh. And if you'd like to know why Garrosh shows so many different sides of himself through Cataclysm, and comes into Mists as a warlord, you may want to look at Thrall as well. In Cataclysm, Garrosh shows several different sides -- there's the side he shows Sylvanas in Silverpine, there's the side he shows us in Stonetalon Mountains.

I sent you into Stonetalon Mountains with an army. Your orders were to secure this land for the Horde. Instead, you laid waste to the land. Murdered innocents. Children even... I spent a very long time in Northrend, Krom'gar. I learned much about the Horde in that time. While there, a wise old war hero told me something that I would carry with me forever... "Honor," Krom'gar, "No matter how dire the battle... never forsake it." -- To Be Horde...

Why is it that Garrosh Hellscream would condemn a soldier in his army for murdering innocents, and then turn around and do precisely the same thing in Theramore, not more than a year or so later? What happened in Hellscream's mind, that this action he once condemned turned into something he is now apparently just fine with?

It wasn't Hellscream that changed. It was the nature of the goal that changed, and Hellscream is far, far more cunning than anyone would care to guess.

Garrosh had a problem with Krom'gar's actions not because they were wrong, but because they flew in the face of what Garrosh was trying to accomplish. At that point in time, this was not a war he was fighting -- this was simply a mission to secure land for the Horde. And that mission did not include the casual slaughter of civilians. Garrosh Hellscream came into leadership by merit not of a political campaign, but a military campaign. He warned Thrall flat-out that he was capable of leading armies, but knew little of politics, and Thrall put him in a political role anyway.

And thus, the Horde war machine was born.

Taken from the Garrosh article. There's way more than just that, but it's a piece I find powerful, not because of the blame it puts on Thrall, but because of the revelation it shows of Garrosh's initial trepidation at ruling, knowing he'd be bad at it, and the plausible and possible explanation of his subsequent actions.

My two pennies for now :)
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#39
(08-24-2013, 03:12 PM)Memnoch Wrote: Taken from the Garrosh article. There's way more than just that, but it's a piece I find powerful, not because of the blame it puts on Thrall, but because of the revelation it shows of Garrosh's initial trepidation at ruling, knowing he'd be bad at it, and the plausible and possible explanation of his subsequent actions.

I've read the articles, I just disagree with them. My main problem is...it doesn't really provide anything plausible. It asks the question of why Garrosh was okay with Theramore but not with Stonetalon...then fails to answer the question. It just dances around it, proclaiming that Garrosh didn't change and the insinuating that the circumstances were different. Except...that's not what Garrosh said at all at Stonetalon. "No matter how dire the battle" he said. Sounds like he changed, to me. There's no going around that. And that's the biggest problem with Garrosh's character: there's no consistency. He gets completely rewritten between every expansion.

But I can argue about the lore for days, really. I ought to just stop and not let this annoy me so, but the writer in me is still raging. I should step away from this thread.
Have you hugged an orc today?
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#40
I looked at that Varian article. It goes into a lot of his past, talks about what he wants in the end, but it deals with little to nothing about his evolution. His 'turning point', which was supposed to be in Wolfheart which, far as I know, was supposed to happen in those three months of Cata that we didn't play because of our timeskip since Gilneas wasn't an official part of the Alliance yet. There is no show of Varian's change in the game, the player doesn't get to see the "wolf" become a king. We just get an aggressive ruler with almost no development in one expansion, then the next he does a completely 180. I did find something funny about that article, though. It said Varian learned patience, when he was the one apparently teaching Tyrande what patience means.

Haaaaaa...
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#41
...

Relevent:

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#42
Hey, look, I can be relevant too! Right? ... Right?

I came across a post talking about the disaster that was Heart of the Swarm's story. Honestly, the fact that it was basically B-grade shlock didn't hurt me as bad because I was never truly attached to SC1's story (though the setting I've always loved. C'mon, rednecks in space against space bugs and space elves).

Anyway, I think this quote from the post is relevant (not only because it explicitly mentions WoW in it in the second paragraph).

Quote:[Image: ZE92wTx.png]

So the first thing that overall strikes me on this approach to the story is that it has become very apparent of the way in which Blizzard approaches writing the story and fleshing out concepts. When storyboarding a concept or narrative, writers and designers lay out graphic panes set in sequences that are shorthand to express the story in an overarching manner, or a macro oriented focus. This is a commonly used tool in cinematography, and is quite effective but here it illustrates the biggest problem in Blizzards approach to storytelling more than anything else. In this approach, each pane in the sequence acts as a singular event, closed off from the rest, and is directly reflected in the unevenness in the story of Wings, and in Swarm, in that each scene has a certain penchant to it, a certain character portrayal, and a specific overall goal that it needs to impart. It is because of these elements being so separated from each other that all of the systemic problems regarding character motivations, story elements, and other items stab wildly in the dark and is precisely why I initially, and colorfully, mentioned that Blizzard suffered from a mental disorder. It's because this approach reminds me of someone who has a dissociative identity disorder, where one moment you have one personality, but five minutes from now they could be wildly different even though they are the same individual.

Storytelling Problems: Why you Can't Have your Cake and Eat it Too
So Blizzard is always placing in our heads and continually reinforcing that they want to tell their story (see their 'brand' of storytelling), and while that overtly sounds good, something has been occurring over the last number of years as a slow accumulation of rather large systemic problem. What is this problem? It's the WoW Effect... The crux of the problem is that the story they want to tell is in many ways incongruous with previously established narratives. Another way of putting it would be that if you establish a certain penchant or thematic idea for storytelling and then say, hey lets ignore everyone's character motivations, the overall ethos, the linear progression and development of the plot and specific points that have transpired, and just tell the story 'we' want to tell...well it shouldn't be too hard to figure out that while that is their prerogative, the resulting story will undoubtedly have problems. In fact, by conveniently disregarding these already established thematic choices or traits, this new story is in ways no longer part of the universe that was originally instantiated and could easily become some kitschy or terribly awkward alternate universe of sorts.
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Move him into the sun—
Gently its touch awoke him once,
At home, whispering of fields half-sown.
Always it woke him, even in France,
Until this morning and this snow.
If anything might rouse him now
The kind old sun will know.

Think how it wakes the seeds,—
Woke, once, the clays of a cold star.
Are limbs, so dear-achieved, are sides,
Full-nerved—still warm—too hard to stir?
Was it for this the clay grew tall?
—O what made fatuous sunbeams toil
To break earth’s sleep at all?
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#43
(08-24-2013, 06:33 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: It asks the question of why Garrosh was okay with Theramore but not with Stonetalon...then fails to answer the question. It just dances around it, proclaiming that Garrosh didn't change and the insinuating that the circumstances were different.

Joystiq Wrote:Garrosh had a problem with Krom'gar's actions not because they were wrong, but because they flew in the face of what Garrosh was trying to accomplish.

He does explain, and that sentence is the basis of it! :)

What I gather from this article is that Garrosh is an Ends-Justify-the-Means kind of guy. In other words, he'll say or do whatever it takes to get the job done, and that's it. He talks about honor and all that to the one orc, but there's others watching, which he knows. The orc he's speaking to, Krom'gar? Yeah, Garrosh kills him. Here's the script in case readers haven't done the quest:

Spoiler:
Overlord Krom'gar says: Warchief! I... I was carrying out your command!
Garrosh Hellscream says: My command? Was my command to murder innocents, Krom'gar?
Overlord Krom'gar says: Warchief... Sir... I...
Garrosh Hellscream says: Am I a murderer, Krom'gar?
Overlord Krom'gar says: No, Warchief!
Garrosh Hellscream says: Then I ask you again: WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!
Krom'gar begins to cower before Garrosh.
Garrosh Hellscream says: I sent you into Stonetalon Mountains with an army. Your orders were to secure this land for the Horde. Instead, you laid waste to the land. Murdered innocents. Children even... I spent a very long time in Northrend, Krom'gar. I learned much about the Horde in that time. While there, a wise old war hero told me something that I would carry with me forever... "Honor," Krom'gar, "No matter how dire the battle... never forsake it."
Garrosh Hellscream says: Overlord Krom'gar, you have disgraced the Horde. You have brought shame to us as a people. By my right as Warchief, I hereby relieve you of your duty.
Garrosh picks up Krom'gar by the throat and lifts him over the edge of the lift bridge.
Garrosh Hellscream says: YOU ARE DISMISSED.
Garrosh drops Krom'gar off the edge, sending him to his death.


What I mean by posting this is that the means-to-an-end thing seems to be Garrosh's constant, his basic, defining attribute, and it works wonderfully because without it, Garrosh would be inconsistent and a Mary Sue (hear me out! :P). Think about every action he's taken, including the above, and ask yourself if someone with only that one drive would do those things. I think they would. Even that little speech he gave to Krom'gar was nothing more than an act for others in his command so that they would listen to him carefully in future.

However, @Grakor456, you're right, this is spinning off from the original topic. I have made this thread to satisfy everyone's apparent desire to talk about Garrosh to their heart's content, without getting off-topic....since it is the topic! Rage to your hearts content! :D (PSST! I also like hearing your opinions, even if you get a full head of steam over it :P)
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