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The Blood Mage Debacle
#16
I've seen MKs permitted to Avatar form in RP, and seen it RPed before as well.

Plus, it exists in MoP.

ON THE NOTE OF MAKING THINGS GROW

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#17
(05-18-2013, 06:49 PM)Rigley Wrote:
(05-18-2013, 06:40 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: (That said, there IS a phoenix hatchling vanity pet, I believe. This conversation has got me with the amusing concept of a hatchling that the Blood Mage spontaneously makes grow into a gigantic inferno for short periods when it's needed for combat. Would that ever be passed? I kinda doubt it, but I'm chuckling at the imagery.)

I love this idea. So much.

"GROW, PHOENIX, GROW!"

...I love it too. So much. Considering Phoenixes go through life cycles Egg>Hatchling>Adult>Egg>Hatchling>Adult>etc, relatively quickly, it'd work. I'd let it fly. Hell, it could burn out and become an egg again after its time's up! Just like in WC3/the Lore! Gods, you people are smart.

-And- it placates both the 'But I want my Phoenix to stick around' crowd as well as the 'Well, it should only be temporary' people! All of my happiness.
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#18
Let's face it, Grak. You came up with the perfect idea for the phoenix there. Also I believe there is some sort of item that causes vanity pets to grow by a certain scale for a short time, it might be possible for Kret to tweak said scale so the phoenix could be an appropriate size.

On an unrelated note about blood mages, I'm sad Blizz never really saw fit to elaborate much on the ones that actually use blood.

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#19
Actually, from what Blizz has given us there seem to be -two- different sorts of mages. That being Blood Mage and Bloodmage, for all of the care blizz has to differentiate.

...Either way, the two are certainly not the same from what they've exhibited.


Personally I like this idea, though! I suppose you could have the phoenix be a hatchling when idle, then have it grow temporarily when needed for combat. At the end of that it returns to an egg for a while, then goes back to being a hatchling 'till you need it to burn stuff again.

...I like it. I also wonder if we could make an item with infinite use for making them grow, since as Aroes pointed out there is indeed an item that does that.

(Or alternatively make them available as a vendor item, which I wouldn't be overly opposed to as far as I can see.)


EDIT: ...I will say that I don't think this would warrant a phoenix -mount- for blood mages, however. I just don't feel it would be sensible as a -mount- with this set up.
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#20
I believe the item we're all looking for is Papa Hummel's Old-Fashioned Pet Biscuit!

http://www.wowhead.com/item=35223/papa-h...et-biscuit

Someone was kind enough to put up a picture with the phoenix companion biscuitified:

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#21
GENIUS.

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Have you hugged an orc today?
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#22
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#23
...I can dig it.
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#24
I actually very much like the idea of a phoenix growing from a small and relatively unassuming familiar to a combat companion as a temporary "cooldown," if you will. 'Twould make for some really fun RP.
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#25
Heh, all the best discussions happen while I'm asleep. Rise again, Khirsah.
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#26
Fun police incoming.

The tiny phoenix hatchling morphing into full-fledged phoenix sounds like something out of an anime and not really fitting in with... anything in WoW. I have to agree with Reigen that only high level blood mages (Kael'thas and near level) could summon a phoenix. It is not a fire elemental so it cannot be treated as 'just an alternative to the mages frost elemental'... and even if it was, fire elementals vary as massively in power as demons. Moreover, the playable blood mages are closer to warlocks then mages.

And speaking from a purely combat and more OOC standpoint... Let's say a blood mage picks a fight with some guy, proceeds to summon a phoenix and just sit up in the air while the other fellow is quite helpless. This is different to a flying mount as you can rather obviously tell if someone has a flying mount and perhaps adapt accordingly, whereas you don't know about the phoenix unless explicitly told beforehand (I don't believe there are any physical manifestations of being a blood mage). Of course this is a secondary point as combat mechanics shouldn't take precedence over quality roleplay.

I believe it's possible to roleplay a blood mage just fine without attempting to find reasons to make phoenixes work. It really more or less boils down to 'phoenixes are cool and unique'. There's also little WoW lore on them at all. Are they like the phoenixes of modern myth that can be reborn from eggs? Or are they just flying fire birds?
"Do not be fooled if you hear laughter, or happen upon a smile. There is no happiness or merriment here."
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#27
(05-19-2013, 03:01 AM)mimloopen Wrote: Are they like the phoenixes of modern myth that can be reborn from eggs? Or are they just flying fire birds?

They're reborn from eggs. They go through their cycle relatively quickly, based on WC3. Thus a small one getting a boost and growing to maturity for a brief bout of combat is perfectly doable. They then burn out and turn into eggs again. And the cycle continues. It's Lore-appropriate.

And, you can say the same about Warlock pets - Do you realize how powerful Shivarra are in the Lore? They're utterly ridiculous. So, there's a toned-down version for a pet. There's no indication the person's a warlock, and there are things to make Demon summons near-instant, unlike coaxing what's effectively a small fire elemental outta' the Firelands. Same with Mage Water Elementals, Shaman Totem Elementals, Army of the Dead, etc. etc. Hell, even DK Horses. Poof, random Horse outta' the Realm of Shadows.

Moreover, there should be no phoenix mount... I mean, realistically, you generally would get your legs burnt if you tried to sit on the thing, even with a saddle. And, we've established that Blood Mages fit best as Warlocks.

Besides, a good, plausible solution has been found, that those involved generally seem to agree with. It makes sense, it doesn't overstep the Lore(Hell, there are plenty of things that make you grow in size/strength, from spells to alchemical concoctions), it allows us to exhibit an iconic racial feature, and it's not overpowered, it's easy to implement -and- a funny reference to boot. Just a pet for a pet class('Locks).

I used t'hear a good handful of people complaining about the fact that BElves aren't BElfy enough. Blood Mages, like Blademasters for instance, are a racial symbol, and are likely to promote quality and depth.

TL;DR - I will quote Aroes with "Why not?"

...And now to bring back dat dusty Blood Mage profile from a while back...
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#28
I'm of the firm opinion that demon strength is grossly exaggerated within the CoTH community but that's not too relevant. What is relevant is that summoning shivarra, shaman totems, army of the dead and such are all part of player characters, whereas summoning a phoenix isn't, so there's no real debate on whether or not a player should be able to use them in roleplay within logical circumstances. On the other hand, the only thing we know about phoenix's are that the most powerful blood mages can use them. There is no 'toned down' version for any other blood mages encountered. As for phoenixes hatching from an egg.... so are they an elemental or not? Why would an elemental have to hatch from an egg, or even grow? Apart from being on fire a phoenix shares no resemblance to any elemental. None are seen anywhere in the game apart from beneath blood mages, not even within Ragnoras' forces.

In my undoubtedly unpopular opinion the whole 'grow a baby phoenix into a big one temporarily' seems so anime-esque, like it belongs in a pokemon world rather then a WoW one. What possible benefit could a blood mage have of summoning a tiny bird then having to go through whatever process to enlarge it (and if it is an elemental, I don't believe elementals can drink/eat anything to increase its size and I don't know of any other method) temporarily? Why not just use something more effective? We've gone from blood mages summoning phoenixes to blood mages summoning baby phoenixes that they grow temporarily with some method, which is definitely not what the 'actual' blood mages do... it's basically made up lore for the sake of having something cool.
"Do not be fooled if you hear laughter, or happen upon a smile. There is no happiness or merriment here."
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#29
I'm not taking a side on this, but here's what I found on where Phoenixes come from. It's from the RPG, so take that as you will.

Manual of Monsters Wrote:The phoenix is a natural predator of the Elemental Plane.* The wondrous bird is about 18 feet long with a sleek, feathered body that dances with bright flames. Its colorful feathers range from yellow to orange to red. A crest of spiky feathers runs down the center of its back, and its wingspan stretches out 30 feet. From birth to death, it spends its life hunting through the air - in fact, it lacks any legs that might enable it to land. Even after death it often rises again from its own ashes to continue the hunt.

The phoenix is a fearless, aggressive predator of aerial prey. Its only direct form is a vicious bite, but the secondary damage from its flaming aura and ability to burn help to bring down its prey quickly. A phoenix prefers to attack from above and behind with surprise, but follows up its initial attack by remaining close to burn its victims while continuing to strike with its beak.

Summon phoenix is a unique spell that Kael developed to summon fire elementals. It is similar to other summon monster spells, except it can only summon fire elementals. Kael invariably uses it to summon phoenixes, hence its name.

*Blazewing, and Blaze of the Heavens are at least two present in Cataclysm. Alysrazor might be close, though he's called a Fire Hawk.
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#30
(05-19-2013, 05:12 AM)mimloopen Wrote: I'm of the firm opinion that demon strength is grossly exaggerated within the CoTH community but that's not too relevant. What is relevant is that summoning shivarra, shaman totems, army of the dead and such are all part of player characters, whereas summoning a phoenix isn't, so there's no real debate on whether or not a player should be able to use them in roleplay within logical circumstances. On the other hand, the only thing we know about phoenix's are that the most powerful blood mages can use them. There is no 'toned down' version for any other blood mages encountered. As for phoenixes hatching from an egg.... so are they an elemental or not? Why would an elemental have to hatch from an egg, or even grow? Apart from being on fire a phoenix shares no resemblance to any elemental. None are seen anywhere in the game apart from beneath blood mages, not even within Ragnoras' forces.

In my undoubtedly unpopular opinion the whole 'grow a baby phoenix into a big one temporarily' seems so anime-esque, like it belongs in a pokemon world rather then a WoW one. What possible benefit could a blood mage have of summoning a tiny bird then having to go through whatever process to enlarge it (and if it is an elemental, I don't believe elementals can drink/eat anything to increase its size and I don't know of any other method) temporarily? Why not just use something more effective? We've gone from blood mages summoning phoenixes to blood mages summoning baby phoenixes that they grow temporarily with some method, which is definitely not what the 'actual' blood mages do... it's basically made up lore for the sake of having something cool.


Just throwing this out here..... Even in WCIII, Phoenixes hatch from eggs.

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