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The Blood Mage Debacle
#46
Hmmmm...

Why not leave the option in to do either?

What I mean is, you're in charge of your portrayal of Phoenixes, in the end. You're probably not going to do an amazing job illustrating a concept you dislike, now are you?

Now, as far as I've gathered, both sides want a fiery death-machine temporarily. It's just that some want to have some interaction with it while it's a hatchling or in an egg(as one-sided as that can be), whilst the others just want it to disappear once it's done its job.

Lemme tell you a bit about Phoenixes, as taught to us by WC3, when they take too much damage in combat(Basically when "killed") or near the end of their(seemingly short) lifespan, they return to egg-form. That's basically the best form of cooldown there is. Then you have to wait for 'em to hatch again before they become usable once more.

What the mini-phoenix side are arguing is having the hatchling around, before he's prepared to do battle. It's barely more than an angry, hunt-y, flying fire hazard, and using something akin to the Demonic Empowerment spell Warlocks possess to speed his growth to that of a normal Phoenix, the 'adult' stage of phoenix life. After that, the cycle continues. The bird burns out or is defeated, and returns to egg form, out of which it'll hatch, etc. It explains cooldown, and respects the lore of the Phoenix life-cycle. It being a constant presence(whether egg, hatchling or adult) is consistent with Warlock demon mechanics, as well as allowing more general interaction.

What the combat-pet-only side are arguing for is not dealing with the life-cycle of the Phoenix entirely. Simply not potraying it and having just the phoenix come and go full-sized, never burning out to egg-form, never having to wait for it to hatch, never interacting with it beyond it being a summon in combat and then being dismissed or killed(They still should revert to egg-form when killed though, Lore-wise, so I guess there's no real escaping the cycles, unless you just don't want to portray it).

But.

Both sides can be placated with the following: Have the -option- to portray either one. Think about it - different people treat creatures in different ways. One Blood Mage might only summon their Phoenix solely as a manifestation of fiery destruction, while the other might care for their manifestation of fiery destruction throughout its life-cycles.

They are not mutually exclusive. They're easy to portray as IC approaches to how a BM might treat their Phoenix. Either as a siege engine solely, or as a siege engine that's cared for throughout the stages of its existence.

Simple enough, huh?
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#47
...Now I feel a shred or six inappropriate, having only skimmed through the thread and coming in so late, but...

Why not claim that the Summon Phoenix is just a re-skin of the Summon Infernal?

They could quite justifiably function in the same capacity, to similar powers and effects, with similarly stringent casting requirements.

Most of the Blood Mage spells belong to the warlock class anyways, there being only Flamestrike as the unfortunate exception, and even the concept of Verdant Spheres is efficiently represented by the new soul shard system.

It seems to work out as a relatively vanilla, tidy variant of warlock.
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#48
Personally I was talking less about a split of how the beast is summoned and more about just what it... -is-.

Is it intelligent? Does it actually have a bond with the Mage? Does it have character beyond being a bird?

I personally don't believe so; but I get the impression that some have a differing concept of the creature. And unlike its way of summoning, that -can't- work with either or.
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#49
I would personally rather there be a uniformed way on how they work as well, not 'X says it works this way and Y says its this way'. That can get confusing and conflicting.
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#50
Personally I don't want to see players having the ability to summon a phoenix, because it contradicts the rule of being able to summon/conjurer living animals. Before you start, yes, the phoenix is living, yes, it's an animal. A phoenix is a fire bird, and a bird is an animal. The fact that it has a life, death, and rebirth cycle, indicated some form of life. Even immortals are living animals.

If you allow blood mages to summon phoenix's, then you have to get rid of the rule that mages can't summon living animals, because of the fact that it's a huge contradiction, and the fact that there is a distinct bias. For example:

in warcraft: orcs and humans, there was a unit that could summon scorpions. Because of the fact that mages made them obsolete, and the fact that blizz apparently forgot all about them, conjuration is only limited to the forementioned portals, perishables, and the water elemental, and there is no mention of them being able to conjurer/summon animals. HOWEVER, in both wc3 and WoW:BC, there is clear proof, and the fact that they have continuity, means that (very powerful) blood mages can summon phoenix's.

So, this being said, even though there is proof that one can do something over the other, this still shows that mages CAN summon/conjure creatures.
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#51
(05-20-2013, 03:20 PM)Rigley Wrote: Personally I was talking less about a split of how the beast is summoned and more about just what it... -is-.

Is it intelligent? Does it actually have a bond with the Mage? Does it have character beyond being a bird?

I personally don't believe so; but I get the impression that some have a differing concept of the creature. And unlike its way of summoning, that -can't- work with either or.

Personally, I do believe these creatures have some form of intelligence. These are powerful fire elementals, and as the shamanic folk of Azeroth have taught us, even the tiniest elemental feels. They may think unlike us, speaking the tongue of the fire plane (Ignan, a dialect of Kalimag.) It seems to me elementals think more in direct feelings and actions, whereas we think in thoughts and images. Certain people are more apt at understanding this foreign mode of communication, like shaman and some magi. I think that there is reason to believe a bond -could- be formed with the mage, and I would assume it does have a character beyond simply hunt-kill-burn. We see elementals having personas often, but they are usually very archetypical; fire elementals seem to represent aggressive/passionate emotions, and water elementals are usually more passive/calm emotions. Earth seems very neutral/patient, and air seems very neutral/unrestrained.

There is also the fact that we know that Kael'thas cares very deeply for Al'ar, as a pet and not just a tool of war. I do not think it fits to have a phoenix around at all times, but I did have a vision whilst reading this thread of something interesting. A blood mage not having their phoenix at all times, but able to make some sort of mental or magical communication with it across planes. A blood mage could either bond with their phoenix and use simply the same phoenix each time, or the mage could simply use the phoenix as a tool for battle. It would really depend on the mage. Kael'thas summons random phoenixes often, but he has formed a special bond with the most powerful of all phoenixes, Al'ar, which as I understand it has made the phoenixes more willing to work with blood elves in general.

Again, I don't know how I feel about having the phoenix at all times summoned. It would take a toll on the mana of the caster to keep sustaining the phoenix on Azeroth, and they are creatures that generally... do not make sense in Azeroth. They are far too hot, and thus would unintentionally set fires all the time. They are destructive, whether they mean to be or not. Besides, why would a blood mage want someone to know they could summon a phoenix to aid them in combat at all times? It seems like putting way too many cards on the table for a cunning magister blood elf. (That's just a character based thing, though.)

TL;DR: I don't think they should be able to be out at all times, but it would make sense if a blood mage could maintain contact with a phoenix, should they choose to bond with the phoenix as Kael'thas did with Al'ar. If not, they simply summon phoenixes as tools of war.

P.S. Before Astus fell into necromancy and away from Silvermoon, his fire magic often took the form of a phoenix as a symbol of his pride. They weren't actually phoenixes, merely that shape.

edit: I would completely agree with you, Alpha, if phoenixes weren't elementals. But alas, a phoenix is a fire elemental. Not a living animal creature. There is nothing particularly stopping a mage from summoning a living creature, though. I mean, it's probably possible in the realm of warcraft magic, but I'd rather not touch on that subject because mages are not given the ability by Blizzard. But they are fire elementals and are categorized as elementals by the game, not living animals.
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#52
Oh they're considered elementals in this game? Didn't know that. Although I think I read that in this thread though and forgot about it...
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#53
Aphetoros put it quite well. I suppose that, and an Infernal reskin make the most sense.

Though, the hatchling pet(and growth thingy) would also be nice for when the Phoenix inevitably burns out as a result of its own fires/lifespan ending or being killed in combat.
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#54
Hrmmm...

More akin to what I meant is that I got the impression from some chatter that people were giving phoenixes more akin to what you would use for a person. Personally I feel that you're only going to get a similar 'persona' to what the average bird would be. So really only as much as the person projects, and even then they may not be right.

Now, yes, elementals react and act in certain ways. And -some- types of elementals display a human intelligence. BUT-- not all of them, and not all of them even speak. I would put forward other 'beasts' which reside in the elemental planes, of which I'm chiefly talking of creatures like the shale/magma spiders, the giant ring-worm things, etc. It seems to me that phoenixes could just have a comparable intelligence to that of an actual hawk then-- it certainly seems that the elemental plane has its own distinct difference between the 'humanoid' inhabitants and the more beast-like creatures, of which I think the phoenix is one.

We've never seen a phoenix communicate outside of squawks; it doesn't speak in kalimag, and honestly until we see one that does I don't see much that would illustrate that other than pure speculation. Personally, I just feel they're comparable to that of an actual animal. An exotic and amazing animal, but an animal.
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#55
I can see that logic. I still feel as though a phoenix would be comparable to a slightly weaker, longer lasting infernal summon. I still think one could bond with a phoenix, like Kael did, simply... it would be harder than bonding with a normal bird. And birds are hard to bond with as is, imo.

edit: Has a ruling been made about verdant spheres at least, to add to the cataclysm decisions thread? They are allowed, yes?
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#56
(05-22-2013, 04:30 AM)Aphetoros Wrote: I can see that logic. I still feel as though a phoenix would be comparable to a slightly weaker, longer lasting infernal summon. I still think one could bond with a phoenix, like Kael did, simply... it would be harder than bonding with a normal bird. And birds are hard to bond with as is, imo.

edit: Has a ruling been made about verdant spheres at least, to add to the cataclysm decisions thread? They are allowed, yes?

There hasn't been any official statement out on it, but honestly I see no reason not to go through with most of the stuff proposed in here. It seems the phoenix bit is the only thing requiring more hashing out, as I think most GMs were rather alright with the other parts of the discussion.
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