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Undead and Nature Magic
#1
With the introduction of Cataclysm, the Forsaken were given a new class: the Hunter. This made me wonder to what extent (if any) an undead can use natural magic. Only a little bit at some cost? Just as much as any other hunter (if hunters use magic)? Not at all?

My personal opinion is leaning to not at all, or only a little bit. Why? They're undead, an error in the natural order. True, they can use the Light, but the Light is an overreaching cosmic force reliant on the soul that sort of punches through boundaries. Natural magic, in my opinion, is much more reliant on an order, a balance. It doesn't really care if you're the sweetest undead ever; you're still undead.

So...thoughts?
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#2
I'm inclined to agree with your arguments, but I tend to speculate about things from several angles. What do I mean? Here's a counter-argument: If Undead can understand and manipulate "normal" magic (as mages), "demonic" magic (warlocks), "runic magic" (Death Knights, though this is of course due to the Lich King...so it's up for debate :P), and even what I might go so far as to call "physical magic" (alchemy, Plague, etc.), and could retain knowledge from their life that might include herblore/other nature-based things...why not turn their attention to natural magic? Their views on the matter would, naturally, be different than say, a night elf's...but what's to say they can't figure out a little on their own?

Not my actual views, mind, I think undead are abominations (hell, some are even called Abominations), but I like to put this kind of thing out there :)
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#3
I, honestly, have no idea how Undead Hunters work... Especially when you consider the fact that Sylvanas turned into what she is today (class-wise) through the fact that she lost her connection to nature and that it'd never answer her call again (it's stated in roughly those words in various sources I do believe). Gameplay-wise, hunters seem to use all kinds of things ranging from nature, to poison, to arcane, to whatever else they use. I would -assume- it's safe to say that an uundead hunter would be a much less specialized version of a Dark Ranger. AKA, they use shadow instead of nature to get roughly the same effect as the original spell.
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#4
Elven rangers are known to have a bit of nature and druidic magic training due to their natural connection towards the wilderness.

Sylvanas herself had nature magic to an extent I believe which later evolved into dark magic. This is why Dark Rangers exist. Because of the past nature magic they had when they were alive. It's a twisted version of their previous abilities.

So, in my opinion, No. It shouldn't be possible but again, we're in a fantasy world. Anything can happen.

As for Undead Hunters. It's gameplay, really. Humans can be hunters yet they can't be druids or shamans either.
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#5
I think it's another episode of Blizzard caring more about game mechanics than lore consistency - it's completely justifiable, but that's how it is. As has been stated, Sylvanas and the other rangers became Dark Rangers because they were completely unable to access the nature magic they had before.

It's really the same case as night elf hunters pre-Cataclysm - we didn't let them legally use arcane powers then, despite the fact hunters have Arcane Shot, and we shouldn't allow undead to use nature powers now.
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#6
Just be creative in your application of the skills you have at your disposal. The Forsaken tendency towards alchemy and subterfuge provide countless interpretations for how you apply your abilities ICly. Crafted poisons in place of stings, manufactured traps, fear-enslaved beasts perhaps... As with any race/class combo there are slight lore inconsistencies but generally a substitute is provided if you use your imagination. As for my own thoughts, I would tend to agree that the forsaken are quite the abomination and would likely not hold sway over natural forces.
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#7
It's worth pointing out that many elven rangers were slain and then risen again in the Lich King's service. Most of their abilities tend to come from the divine shadow corner of Warcraft magic. Aside from the Gilneans, it doesn't seem as though humans have ever had much natural proclivity towards nature magic, and not even the Gilneans had a particularly strong grasp. I'd base the hunters of the Forsaken on Dark Rangers, personally. As @Nikodemos suggested, imagination is the best way to go. Royal Apothecary hunters would be coolio.
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#8
I am not basing my thoughts on any lore but just what I think. Two things, first the undead plague is a perversion of nature this perversion has reached more than just the forsaken, there are plenty of undead animals, and decayed trees and what not all around the world. Could it be passable that an undead hunter could tap into these parts of nature that have been twisted by the plague.

Second, I know must of us think of nature as growing things and flowers and trees and hippies. Is there not a flip side, the cold harsh strip the flesh from your bones northern tundra, is not death and decay just as much apart of nature as life and growth. Nature is survival of the fittest and what embodies that more than the forsaken who survive despite being dead. They might have cheated the natural cycle of things but hey, nature adapts.
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#9
Do keep in mind one fact when debating this: undead get healed by light magic and they get a shock of pain. They get healed by nature magic and they're just fine. Yet, they can still use light magic despite the fact it is far, far more against their very nature (let's not forget things like Shackle Undead.) Let's also not forget we have fel orc shamans out in Outland. So, from what I see, I think it's theoretically -possible- for an undead to use nature magic, but we don't see the druid/shaman options for them because they aren't culturally relevant to them.

That said, there's a distinction that kind of needs to be made, there. Hunters are "magical" in the same way that rogues and warriors are "magical": They've got funky abilities that may seem magical, but usually end up being shrugged off as either part of the heroic fantasy that is WoW or blamed on nebulous "mysticism." Most hunter abilities are explainable without the need to declare any sort of nature magic. The two strangest abilities, which are the hardest to explain without magic, are Arcane Shot and Black Arrow, and those aren't very nature-oriented by their nature.
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#10
(08-28-2013, 08:25 PM)DuskWolf Wrote: Second, I know must of us think of nature as growing things and flowers and trees and hippies. Is there not a flip side, the cold harsh strip the flesh from your bones northern tundra, is not death and decay just as much apart of nature as life and growth. Nature is survival of the fittest and what embodies that more than the forsaken who survive despite being dead. They might have cheated the natural cycle of things but hey, nature adapts.

Funnily enough my worgen druid main is a "death" focused druid, and my orc shaman is focused on ice and winter storms.

(08-29-2013, 12:07 AM)Grakor456 Wrote: Do keep in mind one fact when debating this: undead get healed by light magic and they get a shock of pain. They get healed by nature magic and they're just fine. Yet, they can still use light magic despite the fact it is far, far more against their very nature (let's not forget things like Shackle Undead.) Let's also not forget we have fel orc shamans out in Outland. So, from what I see, I think it's theoretically -possible- for an undead to use nature magic, but we don't see the druid/shaman options for them because they aren't culturally relevant to them.

Do we have an example of an undead being healed by natural magic other than RP, and us going "I don't really know what else'd happen"? And as for the fel orc shamans, they're likely dark shamans that forcefully bind the elements, yes?

Perhaps it's possible for an undead to force it. Somehow.
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#11
(08-29-2013, 02:17 AM)c0rzilla Wrote: Perhaps it's possible for an undead to force it. Somehow.

Kinda what I was thinking.
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#12
Honestly, with so many Forsaken being expert alchemists, it suprises me more that there isn't some sort of branch of magical plants that would actually be in tune with Shadow, especially considering that there are plenty of sorts of plants that thrive with arcane stuff, or even after being altered by it. More importantly, since nature is about the cycle of live and death, you think that the plants and critters attuned to decomposition and such would be more chill with the Shadow. The undead may count as a theological abomination for the average tree-hugger or Light user, but, in effect, they're just dead stuff animated by Shadow. You'd think that those magic mushroom dudes and stuff would love 'em.

I wouldn't say one way or another; I half expect Blizzard to pull off some sort of undead fungus druids or something after the Druid of the Flame thing.
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#13
Perhaps altered flora and fauna would be cool with Forsaken and undead, but that's just it. They're altered, not really part of the natural flow of things. Like Forsaken aren't. I count Forsaken as a natural abomination as well, but that's my opinion.
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#14
The way I see it, it's not only extremely silly to RP a Forsaken who happily wields the light and/or nature magic, it's also antithetical to the point of Forsaken.

This is a race who has been ... Okay, insert namedrop here. Puns aside, seriously, the Forsaken have been cast aside by everything - their own people, the forces of nature. These guys don't have to eat, drink, or sleep - they exist outside of nature and for the most part their influence on it is pretty aberrant. Why in the name of heck would 'nature' (and it's been established that there are at least a few spirits with sapience who deal with the hippy-growing-flowers-and-animals-and-stuff side of the world) allow these creepy blastoids to wield their power?

The way I see it is - they don't. The Forsaken, as well as being a race that everything kind of dislikes, are also a race that are collectively masters at rebinding and warping aspects of the world to suit themselves. They're not going to take no for an answer, and that's how I think we can explain them doing 'natural' things. They aren't coalescing with the spirit of the snake and appeasing it (and all that lovely hunter stuff) to cast Serpent Shot, they're forcefully binding it for their whims - or using poisons they've crafted themselves.

Druids? It's been established that Shamans can control the elemental spirits even if they're unwilling (shackled elementals for mages also show this), and there's the presence of the Spirit of the Wilds (no blooming idea if it's exclusive to the RPG, but it's a good idea so I'll roll with it), and that there are Druids who willingly side with destructive forces. Though, the Old Gods are technically the more primal side of Azeroth, so maybe it's actually a purer form of druidism to go break everything with fire. Regardless, it shows that there's always a back entrance for this kind of thing.

Considering the Forsaken's collective tenacity as well as their ruthlessness, there's really no reason to assume they can't just force things. Nature magic included. It's absurd to let them perform all this kind of stuff by normal means, though - there are far more creative and logical ways to deal with, which we should be encouraging rather than trying to find reasons why it -could- work.




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#15
(08-29-2013, 02:17 AM)c0rzilla Wrote: Do we have an example of an undead being healed by natural magic other than RP, and us going "I don't really know what else'd happen"? And as for the fel orc shamans, they're likely dark shamans that forcefully bind the elements, yes?

The whole "dark shamanism" thing was never really explained until the Taunka joined the Horde. I've no idea the exact lore explanation for the fel orcs in Hellfire, but whatevs.

As far as nature magic healing on undead: I honestly don't recall a specific incident of undead being healed by nature magic because Horde forces between the two continents rarely intermingle (and it's even more rare to have healing actually be a thing like that.) However, all instances of healing hurting undead refer specifically to the Light:

http://wowpedia.org/Undead

Quote:The souls of the undead (Forsaken, PC death knights, ghouls, etc.) are imperfectly attached to their bodies; the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies. This is why undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli, and why the Light is so painful to their existence.

The Light specifically doesn't like undead because of the particular way their souls were pinned back to their bodies. Nothing suggests nature magic would have the same reaction.

(08-29-2013, 11:13 PM)Maulbane Wrote: The way I see it, it's not only extremely silly to RP a Forsaken who happily wields the light and/or nature magic, it's also antithetical to the point of Forsaken.

[snip]

... It's absurd to let them perform all this kind of stuff by normal means, though - there are far more creative and logical ways to deal with, which we should be encouraging rather than trying to find reasons why it -could- work.

Let's not call other people's opinions "absurd." The moment you dismiss it so, you're closing off communication.

Silly as some may see it, undead are capable of wielding the Light. It's canon, it exists. That's just the way Warcraft works.
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