Worgen Death Knights, and True Form

[Grogloki]

And don't forget that when the Lich King raised the DK's they weren't all ran sacked garbage undead things locked in that state. Some were restored via the dark powers etc. Dread Commander Thalanor is a perfect example of this. Worgen DK's work.

[Maulbane]

I think this is the kind of thing that, considering how untouched it is by the lore (which usually makes it a deliberate decision to give it to your character, gameplay or not), should really only be done if the player thinks it'll add to their character. Simply having the form because it's cool, while that's cool and all, kind of seems obtuse, especially considering the precedents we've already got established about making characters.

DKs are, whether we like it or not, a hero class already (I mean, that's probably one of the better points that the concept of 'going by gameplay' gets us). Adding stuff on top of it's not particularly evil or lore-breaking, but it can be a bit extraneous.

[c0rzilla]

While it's true that there's little lore explicitly stating that worgen DKs can shift forms, there's also little lore explicitly stating that they can't. This means that it comes down to personal opinion on beliefs of what makes sense: some people think it's only logical that they can't, some think it's entirely logical that they can. It's down to interpretation, and everyone is going to have a different one of those (remember all those debates on whether DKs are always undead and to what extent they are undead? Those debates still rage to this day.)

So, in cases like this, we try to err on the side of what the game shows us. Since Worgen DKs have Two Forms, they can shift. It is at least within the realm of possibility that if Arthas could have given them their sanity, he could have given them the ability to shift as well. Silly? Perhaps, but Warcraft is a setting full of pop culture references and jokes. I think we can afford to be a little silly now and then.

I would think the lore I've elaborated on is enough to show that Worgen Death Knights cannot change. Again, as this is on the second page--

Spoiler:

Unfortunately, the conclusion she draws is incorrect. Here's why--

Rendering a worgen sane, either by serum or Lich King mind control, only renders them sane. Neither grants them the balance needed to attain human form. They're two different things. The point of the water ritual is finding a key balance between their emotions. That's what gives them their human form. Just because you're sane, doesn't mean you have that balance. While Death Knights do have their faculties, they're driven by so many dark things, it's hard to imagine they can attain that. As well...they're dead. Dead things cannot change, besides rotting. Undead are stuck in a physical stasis, it's why they don't age. Another point, is that the curse is druidic in origin. Death Knights do not have the connection to nature living entities do.

So...yeah. Interesting, but incorrect.

TL;DR Form--

• Sanity and Inner Balance are not the same thing. Thus, a Death Knight could not shift.
  
• Death Knights are dead. Undead are stuck as they died. Thus, a Death Knight could not shift.
  
• The curse is druidic in origin. An undead has no connection to nature.

I'm all sorts of fine with silly and pop culture references, but this doesn't make a lick of sense to me. I haven't really seen any lore or solid argument to support this thus far, besides mentioning the well, which I've countered. Can someone provide it? Though I suppose this is moot by now, with the policy decision.

Edit: On that policy note; we have a policy where we can use pretty much any silly, crazy item in the game except a couple that either don't make lore sense, or one that's too silly (hugely silly, if you get what I mean *cough*). Why is that not applied here? Yes, we have a spell book, we can use aaaanything in it. Except, if you roll X Race/Class combination, there's a lore note to consider. Something to consider.

[Grakor456]

I would think the lore I've elaborated on is enough to show that Worgen Death Knights cannot change. Again, as this is on the second page--

Spoiler:

Unfortunately, the conclusion she draws is incorrect. Here's why--

Rendering a worgen sane, either by serum or Lich King mind control, only renders them sane. Neither grants them the balance needed to attain human form. They're two different things. The point of the water ritual is finding a key balance between their emotions. That's what gives them their human form. Just because you're sane, doesn't mean you have that balance. While Death Knights do have their faculties, they're driven by so many dark things, it's hard to imagine they can attain that. As well...they're dead. Dead things cannot change, besides rotting. Undead are stuck in a physical stasis, it's why they don't age. Another point, is that the curse is druidic in origin. Death Knights do not have the connection to nature living entities do.

So...yeah. Interesting, but incorrect.

TL;DR Form--

• Sanity and Inner Balance are not the same thing. Thus, a Death Knight could not shift.
  
• Death Knights are dead. Undead are stuck as they died. Thus, a Death Knight could not shift.
  
• The curse is druidic in origin. An undead has no connection to nature.

I'm all sorts of fine with silly and pop culture references, but this doesn't make a lick of sense to me. I haven't really seen any lore or solid argument to support this thus far, besides mentioning the well, which I've countered. Can someone provide it? Though I suppose this is moot by now, with the policy decision.

Edit: On that policy note; we have a policy where we can use pretty much any silly, crazy item in the game except a couple that either don't make lore sense, or one that's too silly (hugely silly, if you get what I mean *cough*). Why is that not applied here? Yes, we have a spell book, we can use aaaanything in it. Except, if you roll X Race/Class combination, there's a lore note to consider. Something to consider.

That's not really proof, is the thing. It's conjecture that still allows for other possibilities:

• While sanity and inner balance are two separate things, nothing has said that Arthas was incapable of giving both (or, rather, a twisted alternative to both.)
  
• Undead are frozen in that their biological functions cease. An undead can weight-lift, but his muscles won't grow. However, nothing says magical effects don't affect them. If a DK can be sheeped or frogged (and several in-game DK NPCs are humanoids) then why not?
  
• We see evil druids and druidic powers all the time. What, precisely, says that a druidic curse flees the moment the bearer is turned undead?
  

Items and spells are two different animals. You really shouldn't compare the two, particularly since it's obvious that items (particularly if we're talking things like trinkets and mounts) are much more frequently made intentionally lore-breaking for the purposes of MMO fun and cross-promotions.

[Thoradin]

That's not really proof, is the thing. It's conjecture that still allows for other possibilities:

• muscles won't grow. However, nothing says magical effects don't affect them. If a DK can be sheeped or frogged (and several in-game DK NPCs are humanoids) then why not?
  
  

Just gonna point out that Forsaken are undead yet classified as Humanoids. Call it cherry picking, it's what I am here for.

Spoiler:

[JVNemesis]

As a note, you had to do the quests in retail as a base worgen in order to get the ability to switch forms. You didn't, as a DK. It was added automatically, so it's not something Blizzard had hardcoded. They added it intentionally. Take that as you will.

We have worgen DKs that can't switch forms, for one reason or another that's stated in their profile. We have some that can. To each their own, and it's up to them.

Just gonna point out that Forsaken are undead yet classified as Humanoids.

That's because they were incredibly annoying in Beta PvP, because Humanoid-targetting spells didn't effect them, and Paladin anti-Undead (such as, like, the twenty second stun they had) did. It was a balance nightmare, so it was changed. Meta!

[Dae]

Now, before Cata, the worgen lore was a bit more vague. Look at the Pyrewood worgen, and how they shift from day to night. For the sake of ease, I'd like to assume that things are different for them than other "strains" of worgen. The game *does* say that your degree of feralness has to do with the state of the worgen that bit you.

I play my worgen DK as not being able to change form.