At what point can't Warlock use arcane?

[Kenert]

If a Warlock is a former arcanist(or in Orcs' case, a former Shaman), then at what point can't they use arcane spells anymore? Or is it just that they become from an fire mage to a shadowbolt thrower overnight?

[Beltharean]

Not being a GM I can't really answer, but with a bit of searching I found this in-game book I remembered reading a long time ago.

The Journal of Archmage Antonidas

A student of mine asked me today, "Why are there so many limitations on traditional portals, when Fel portals can be made twice as large and last ten times as long?"

I know that that probably doesn't mean anything for CotH since it is borderline, if not completely, multi-classing, but it's pertinent nonetheless!

[Dae]

This is a situation in which CotH powers that be have stepped in and said that you can't cast non-warlock, mage-ie stuff to keep people from multiclassing and being OP. If you really want a character that can cast certain schools of arcane and warlock stuff, you'll need to make a variant class character and pass it by staff before playing them.

[Kenert]

Sorry, I can't see where it fits into the problem. Fel is basically the stronger variant of arcane, that's been made certain(I think).

EDIT: Posted it without seeing Dae's post. I was told that you can't make a variant class that uses skills from more than one class, even if it is one simple spell(Shadowmage's teleporting from one shadow to another for a warlock).

[Beltharean]

It fits into the problem because it isn't a Fel Portal; It's a Portal that's been augmented -with- Fel meaning that a mage can use Fel without being a Warlock. A person that uses Fel -is- considered a Warlock though, so it's a really weird line that's being walked. If multiclassing wasn't an issue the only thing that would keep a mage from using Fel would be ideological corners and the law, because they -should- really be able to use Fel.

Even Antonidas says he uses some 'weak curses' on an undead corpse, and he's basically -the- mage. He was the Head of the Kirin Tor and he was using darker magic in conjunction with typical arcane.

[Dae]

Sorry, I can't see where it fits into the problem. Fel is basically the stronger variant of arcane, that's been made certain(I think).

EDIT: Posted it without seeing Dae's post. I was told that you can't make a variant class that uses skills from more than one class, even if it is one simple spell(Shadowmage's teleporting from one shadow to another for a warlock).

Variants that draw specific spells just... seem too specific?

Necromancers are often played as having access to both shadow and frost magic, for example, even though in-game, arcane/fel Shadow is a warlock thing while ice is a Mage thing.

Custom variants will almost certainly be denied if it feels like they're made for cherrypicking certain specific abilities or feel like min/maxing.
Variant classes are more about interpreting existing abilities and classes in new ways. For example, a potential variant idea would be a belf mage who uses a crossbow as a magic focus and casts spells through it instead of arrows, because they enjoy magic but prefer a ranger-like lifestyle.

Even with our ranger-like mage here, they'd likely have a bunch of special variants to Frost Bolt, such as for accuracy and have a ranger-like savvy for the environment at the cost of most other mage abilities. They probably wouldn't get a pet nor the mail of a hunter, either.

The biggest reasoning for going out of the way to make a character like this would be as a mechanic for storytelling. This character would probably have some sort of crippling dissuasion against conventional arcane use to the point that they would go through these contrived lengths to avoid it. Through RP, other characters could learn what happened to them, how this gave them strengths and flaws. A lot of variants aren't going to be easy for your character and will likely give them vastly different strengths and more weaknesses than an equivalent, normal version of that class.

That all being said, there are plenty of canon variants in the Warcraft canon, such as witch doctors, the explanation for troll priests, or sunwalkers, who are only "paladins" in-game for the sake of condensing abilities. These sorts of classes pretty much require some lore digging and could very well benefit from some reimagining of in-game abilities, like giving a tauren paladin flaming red magic for some skills, or specifying that a goblin shaman might have to roll to negotiate a contract with an elemental when it uses certain shaman abilities. Again, though, the variants are for storytelling purposes, and a move like this would enhance the effect of that character being a part of their class.

[Aphetoros]

I think it is okay to a VERY SMALL EXTENT. E.g. if a mage reads a curse out of a spellbook to cast it, then it makes sense. Inscribers are one way to circumvent this. One of the biggest things to realize is that unless you're playing an inscriber or using a spellbook, is that we memorize all our spells. MEMORIZE!!!!!1!!one!

So a mage has no reason for memorizing dark curses of evil, because they are evil and he does not want to use them. Magic is not limited by mage, warlock, etc. there is no clear-cut line ICly. We have boundaries to follow because we don't want people becoming Atonidas; able to cast every spell. We don't want someone memorizing every spell in the game; not only is it unfair, it is unrealistic.

I believe if you can explain a good reason why you have a spell, why your character knows this spell and has access to this spell. If you can do that and convince the GMs why your character needs this for the purposes of class and roleplay, I do believe the GMs will approve you, unless it sets a precedent they do not wish to keep (like lichdom. *sadface*)

I digress; there is an extent of 'character-by-character' basis that goes on with variants.


Clarification: Fel is arcane magic that has been twisted and corrupted by evil and darkness. This being demons. This makes it more powerful than arcane. It is no longer arcane magic, like a blood elf is no longer a night elf. Related, distantly, but fel lives in the blood of demons. Anyone can harness this energy, including and not limited to: mages, shaman (dark shaman), warriors, hunters... really, anyone can 'benefit' from its power. (at a huge disadvantage.) A mage using fel magic generally does so via the consumption of demonic blood. This charges him with fel, and causes his spells to be tainted with its energy. E.g. a mage will cast a fireball, red and hot. A mage after drinking demon blood casts a fireball, but it is beset by a sickly emerald from within, and it is harder to resist and in general hurts more.

There are probably other ways to harness fel energy; I don't know if it is acceptable to channel it in the way a warlock does, or not. Again, it's a character choice and if its explainable, makes sense, and isn't ridiculous and overpowered, I don't see why not unless, again, it sets a precedent the GM team is not willing to set.

I know I've said this thirty times, but the private discussion form is great for things you're not sure about with the GM team/want to use a variant class.


edit: It comes down to whether or not you continue to use those spells. e.g. you don't want to resort to petty arcane spells when you have fel and shadow.

[Reigen]

if a mage reads a curse out of a spellbook to cast it, then it makes sense.

I will note it is unlikely a mage will be approved being able to curse someone unless there is a spell in their spellbook that displays this ability. The line between Warlocks and Mages needs to be firm so the classes do not blend any further than they need too.

Inscribers are one way to circumvent this.

Inscribers aren't so much making up new skills as they are using inscription to explain what glyphs their professions give them as well as an explanation for their current class spellbook. It does not give them the ability to use spells outside of their own class. While it makes 'sense' that a mage and warlock would be able to interchange their spells, it would just cause a lot of 'on the line' multi-classing situations, which we would in all honesty rather avoid. Shamans and Warlocks are fully different now, as a note, so there isn't really any way the two can intermingle. Is it strange that a character would suddenly forget how to do these things? Yes. However ways can be found to explain it.

Maybe a mage no longer wants anything to do with being a warlock so they swear off casing that magic all together. Warlocks can find casting with fel so much more satisfying that they for-go normal arcane spells all together. It's up to the player to explain why a character can no longer do things they used to do.

[Harmonic]

My question is...

Why not multiclassing? It's something that's been on my mind since we've even had the variant system, and why I've avoided it, since it's very easy (even accidentally) to step over that line. Is there a reason we don't yet allow it, or just another one of the instances where we say "It'll be handled poorly" despite the fact we've seen many versions of variant classes being used (And in my opinion, multiclassing fits the variant class. Worried about power? Tell people multiclassing makes you a jack of different trades, but a master of none. You may know two different schools from these classes but they are deluded.)

[Grakor456]

A bit off-topic, but I'll try to answer.

We do allow a bit of "multi-classing"/hybridization as it is. For a while it was very popular to try to get passed a "combat-<insert cloth-caster here>" character, which is rather unambiguously "multi-classing" to some extent (not to mention it makes the canon hybrid chararacters (DKs, Paladins, and Shamans) cry.) Similarly, one could argue that allowing, say, a hunter to explain his crazy arrows as magic training is "multi-classing" between hunter and mage. Warriors being used as archers is another example. So, really, there are two possible instances that we could be talking about.

1. Half-and-half multi-classes, where someone is just straight up "hunter plus mage" or some such. This is something I just recommend people avoid on principle since it can lead to a character being unfocused, not to mention what most people actually mean with this concept is not "half-and-half" but "full-and-full" where they have the complete capabilities of both classes. This is where things like "Battle-mage" are okay but "Warrior/Mage" is not.

2. Signature abilities being taken from one class to another. This is mostly in the interest of keeping the idea of class and profession at least somewhat relevant. Every class has something that makes him or her unique or "special" that no one else can do. Mages create portals and summon food, warlocks summon magical pets and stones, etc. etc. Given that WoW generally likes homogenizing the various classes together with every successive expansion, having some distinction between what a "mage" can do and what a "druid" can do is rather helpful in keeping each character with a unique flavor. It also helps distinguish the different types of magic and fighting styles present, since most are incompatible and would lead down the path of "full-and-full" multiclassing. A mage learning a new arcane spell is not that hard, but his training is of no use in learning a new priest spell since they require completely different methods of casting. For the most part, such abilities are either/or.

Now, there are instances where this can get murky. From a lore-standpoint, warlocks and mages generally use a very similar (though not exactly identical) form of magic to each other. At that point, it's mostly a question of what is "fair." An arcanist can only learn so many spells in his or her lifetime, after all, so it makes sense that neither would be able to run the full gamut of spells. There is, however, some natural overlap between them.

[SachikoMaeda]

Because rules. Because even if they would have the knowledge to use arcane, something has to keep a warlock using fel. Technically they can use both, yeah, but no matter what, mages have to use arcane and warlocks have to use fel. Only thing I can think of that defines those two magic classes other than having ice spells or demon summoning.

I personally don't mind multi-classing so long as it doesn't become what I call "class stacking". Once we have a Druid/warlock/paladin/death knight, we'll know something is wrong.

[Loxmardin]

Warlocks still use certain Arcane spells (Fire spells, namely). Not all of their spells are shadow/fel-imbued, but they have to sacrifice something to change their focus, so to speak. It's for balancing purposes, and I don't really see how someone juggles so many schools at the same time. Even Mages tend to specialize in one or two different areas, and if you're not going to specialize at least a little bit in Fel/Shadow, then what's the point of being a Warlock at all?

So it's not so much that they can't, it's just that they wouldn't. If you're going to stick to the old Arcane schools, you'd be better of staying as a regular Mage instead of dabbling in the stuff that makes Warlocks a separate class. They have entirely diffferent mindset, purposes and they don't have the same focus.

[Vrahn]

I'm not a GM so this is somewhat irrelevant but Mages/Warlocks/Necromancers/<Other Arcane Variant> are really quite close to each other in the sense that they all do the same thing. All of their magic is 'arcane' magic, in fact that's the only type of magic for any of the mage-like variants, meaning energy channeled through your body from various lay lines. The difference being only down to what energy you're calling on and what you mean to do with it.

So, technically there is never a point when you can no longer use your old spells beyond simply forgetting them, however the reason there is specializations is because certain folks feel more comfortable with certain concepts and practice those a lot more than others which will make them better and of course fresher in your memory, similarly the stuff you don't use well... you get rusty just like if you've been doing calculus exclusively for a year or two and your probability math gets rather weak.