Dragons, Progression, and What it means to us! OH MY!

[Kage]

I will argue with that last statement you said there Grakor. It is needed, mostly because some of the RPG stuff that isn't allowed/allowed/picked and chosen does impact progression. Blademasters are my favorite example. Very powerful, but there's the RPG and the other one which I dunno where it came from. The one without windwalk/mirror image that apparently we're suppose to use but don't. (@Rowgen @JVNemesis @Morhana . You know what I'm talking about)

But regardless, I am still looking for examples of nonelore whelps kicking butt. I've seen many accounts of unnamed Dreadlords kicking butt, same with really any other demon. But nothing really suggesting that whelps are powerful.

[Mathias]

For example, in one of the Tol Barad events, Mathias can back me up on this; the Horde Players killed a moderately powerful Faceless One. Granted several nearly died and one went blind, but they did it. Now, I am not saying "Ban the killing of the Faceless", I am simply stating that we may have a little bit too much of a... "hard-on" for Dragons and their ilk right now.

Note the s in players, meaning plural. There were about ten players assisting at the time, most of them were too injured to continue any fighting (you ended the event at that point because of how close to death the group was), and it was due to luck that any survived at all. I'm not sure how this proves that dragons can be soloed, especially when dragons are, at this time, still blessed by the Titans.

[Kage]

Whelps being solo'd is what I'm talking about at least. Just -whelps- not the big bad mama dragon. Least that what I figured other people were talking about.

[Grakor456]

Another thing is that, well, I believe the RPG thing to be very relevant, actually. Small bits about lore should be fine, but when it comes to something to the scale of this ageless, time-worn argument about Dragons? It should be left out completely and any 'Lore' that is from the RPG should go with it.

I do feel like we are holding Dragons far too high, and I can prove it by comparing all manner of creatures that one can kill that are comparable to Dragons and their subdivisions. I can do that, but I feel it would be wholly unneeded for this post, at least.

We can talk about it then, sure.

How are you choosing to make these comparisons? Here is the problem in my mind: how powerful are we choosing to interpret CotH PCs? PCs are more powerful than the faceless footmen/grunts of their factions, sure, but I pointed out before how awkward it would be if everyone was on the same level as the retail PC. Hercules wouldn't have been as awesome if everyone he met was as powerful as he was.

At that point: how many things ICly are more powerful than dragons? It's hard to make that judgment from anything we see in-game. Case in point: one quest in Cataclysm has you slaughtering Dreadlords. More than one. They weren't even elite. And these guys were hero-level characters in Warcraft 3. The power scale gets to slide all over the place in WoW, and I think that example alone makes any attempt to make these judgments from in-game representations pointless.

Now, personally, I don't mind the idea of whelps being solo-able (though dangerous since whelps usually are either in groups or with drakes/dragons.) Dragons are considerably intelligent (-at least- as intelligent as the PC races) and quite strong, making them far above trying to take out something like, say, a devilsaur. How would one try to classify these things?

[Rowgen]

I will argue with that last statement you said there Grakor. It is needed, mostly because some of the RPG stuff that isn't allowed/allowed/picked and chosen does impact progression. Blademasters are my favorite example. Very powerful, but there's the RPG and the other one which I dunno where it came from. The one without windwalk/mirror image that apparently we're suppose to use but don't. (@Rowgen @JVNemesis @Morhana . You know what I'm talking about)

You obviously want me to comment, but I'm uncertain what exactly this Blademaster deal is about. PM me, okay?

[Kage]

Perhaps we should make our own powerscale here on Coth. Blizzard constantly contradicts and makes one thing seam weak then strong. Or do we look at that and think "Well, perhaps enemy power levels vary from foe to foe of the same type!"

[Reigen]

We do have our own power-scale on coth however, its the one we've been enforcing! You're not civilians, nor are you on part with the lore figures. Ever notice how most events have standard NPCs having about half the health as players do?

"You encounter a group of three bandits. They have 3 HP. You have 6."

However when you encounter an NPC of power...they have a greater amount of HP and are harder to take down. Its not like PCs are dirt weak, they're just not the most powerful thing this side of azeroth. We also make it so that all combat is fair by putting every character on the same power level unless they wish to be weaker. This rule is so that one character cannot force other characters to be weaker to them. Else, as mentioned, everyone will be trying to be better than everyone else. This takes away that drama.

[Addressing Kage on Powerscale there.]

[Harmonic]

I don't think anyone's getting personal, heh.

[Kage]

The powerscale is random and not even a scale! There is nothing set in stone with that! We're not 1, but we're not a 100 either. So are we a 99? a 2? There's nothing set in stone about that.

And there is no consistency with peoples events for power levels! One event could have you shredding through a Drake who only had 10 hp, and another has the drake with something around 25! That is not a scale, just random numbers and a wide range that has nothing set in stone.

A powerscale would be

Civi-Bandits-Soldiers-Guards.

Do we do that? Far from consistently. I'm talking about a set standard for all events to get rid of confusion. To stop one bandit being more powerful then another.

-OR-

We just admit that each person and NPC have different powerlevels and abolish the scale almost entirely. There's a dragon you can kill single handedly, and theres a dragon that'll take a squad of fifty to down.

[Thoradin]

Spoiler:

Another thing is that, well, I believe the RPG thing to be very relevant, actually. Small bits about lore should be fine, but when it comes to something to the scale of this ageless, time-worn argument about Dragons? It should be left out completely and any 'Lore' that is from the RPG should go with it.

I do feel like we are holding Dragons far too high, and I can prove it by comparing all manner of creatures that one can kill that are comparable to Dragons and their subdivisions. I can do that, but I feel it would be wholly unneeded for this post, at least.

We can talk about it then, sure.

How are you choosing to make these comparisons? Here is the problem in my mind: how powerful are we choosing to interpret CotH PCs? PCs are more powerful than the faceless footmen/grunts of their factions, sure, but I pointed out before how awkward it would be if everyone was on the same level as the retail PC. Hercules wouldn't have been as awesome if everyone he met was as powerful as he was.

At that point: how many things ICly are more powerful than dragons? It's hard to make that judgment from anything we see in-game. Case in point: one quest in Cataclysm has you slaughtering Dreadlords. More than one. They weren't even elite. And these guys were hero-level characters in Warcraft 3. The power scale gets to slide all over the place in WoW, and I think that example alone makes any attempt to make these judgments from in-game representations pointless.

Now, personally, I don't mind the idea of whelps being solo-able (though dangerous since whelps usually are either in groups or with drakes/dragons.) Dragons are considerably intelligent (-at least- as intelligent as the PC races) and quite strong, making them far above trying to take out something like, say, a devilsaur. How would one try to classify these things?

All good points, Grakor.

Regarding PCs: The Player Characters vary, to be completely honest with you. They all vary in some aspect or another, much like the many races and whatnot that are out and about in the game. Granted one PC wont achieve Hercules level (Given Hercules was a literal God, and thus better than any man alive), but they can certainly achieve the Fame. It is all a matter of trust with the Player, really. Trust in the knowledge that the character is capable of slaying whatever enemy is before him, Orc, Dragon, Demon, whatever.

Regarding the Dreadlord Argument; You kill all kinds of dragons, drakes, and whelps throughout the game with about the same difficulty. I can source a few instances (not dungeons) where you just walk around killing dragons. It's the same with Faceless Ones, Naga, Gnolls, Humans and Orcs. The "Nameless Adventurers", that we know as the Retail PCs, are the unsung heroes. They are essentially what our PC's here can hope to be at some point, even going so far as to reach it. Sure we'll never go and kill Vanessa Van Cleef, Deathwing, or Hogger, but we have the ability to reach and attain our own levels of fame through individual, group, or guild Storylines.

The power scale gets to slide all over the place in WoW, and I think that example alone makes any attempt to make these judgments from in-game representations pointless.

Now this is the Mac Daddy, the Pappy, the Big Boss.

There is just no way to scale what is more powerful than what. It only comes down to the logical reasoning that a Dragon, Drake, or Whelp could very well be solo'd within reason. Maybe have the Character prepare and plan for weeks, watching his Mark and awaiting the chance. There are all manner of ways to make yourself 'invisible' to your query. In a manner of speaking.

It all comes down to trust. In a spur of the moment fight, someone could easily solo a whelp, or even a young drake if they got lucky (which is what it comes down to anyways). A full blown Dragon, matured or no, is a problem, sure. One person would be hard pressed to win that fight, but they could. Lady Luck appears wherever her free spirit takes her. She don't need on one to tell her what to do or where to go.

[Harmonic]

That is part of the problem, is the lack of consistancy. Like... it doesn't make sense to me that we can take on one thing, but 'There's no hope' for another thing.

[Kage]

That is part of the problem, is the lack of consistancy. Like... it doesn't make sense to me that we can take on one thing, but 'There's no hope' for another thing.

It's more then that. In one event we fight lets say a Twilight Reaver. A bunch of them, they're the foot soldiers. Then, another person runs a completely different event, but the Twilight Reaver is a boss now.

[Rosencrat]

It's all based around the person who runs the event, not anything a GM or Administrator can do.

I would, personally, prefer this system over something more set in stone. So long as each dungeon-master uses reason when they set the power scale for their enemies, things will work out fine. Yes, there will be some gripping, yes, but that should be directed towards the individual dungeon master.

[Grakor456]

There is just no way to scale what is more powerful than what. It only comes down to the logical reasoning that a Dragon, Drake, or Whelp could very well be solo'd within reason. Maybe have the Character prepare and plan for weeks, watching his Mark and awaiting the chance. There are all manner of ways to make yourself 'invisible' to your query. In a manner of speaking.

It all comes down to trust. In a spur of the moment fight, someone could easily solo a whelp, or even a young drake if they got lucky (which is what it comes down to anyways). A full blown Dragon, matured or no, is a problem, sure. One person would be hard pressed to win that fight, but they could. Lady Luck appears wherever her free spirit takes her. She don't need on one to tell her what to do or where to go.

And of course, the problem with this is that you say that on a public RP server, and suddenly every player has a character that "lucked" into slaying a dragon single-handedly in their career.

Strictly speaking, it's -possible- for someone to luck into killing a dragon. Let's think about it logically for a moment, however: even with modern firearms, how easy do you think it would be for a lone hunter (who for some reason had a time machine) to go and kill a t-rex the size of a house? That's a devilsaur. Now imagine that t-rex was as smart as the hunter, could fly, can breathe fire, and can cast crafty magic like invisibility or the like. That's a dragon. -Possible-? Sure, but so improbable that acknowledging it is kind of silly. It's also -possible- for some peasant to come up and single-handedly kill Thrall, but that's not going to happen (unless Blizzard really is stalking me.)

Dragons are dangerous. They're smart. They're crafty. And that is exactly what makes them so interesting as antagonists. Beware the dangers of power creep when it relates to story-telling. That dragons are essentially impossible to kill solo is part of what can make them a great device for events. We often say "no" to dragon-killing because most of the time it's a one-on-one affair or just a footnote in someone's profile history. I can say with confidence, though, that opposition would be much weaker if a dragon-killing was the culmination of a long event or event-chain. That talk about preparing and planning? That's great, I want to see more of that! That's why the GMs/Overseers are saying they want to be notified, so we can make that a reality.

[Kage]

The freedom is nice, but it's so inconsistent you feel weird. You sit in an event where a foe you fought the day before is suddenly ten times stronger. It's awkward.