Should Cartels be treated as noble houses?

[FlyingSquirrel]

Just a pre-bed question for y'all.

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[Thoradin]

Not really, IMO.


A Cartel is just a mercantile organization (that deals in one thing or another). They are nothing special, except by how much money they -could- make. Noble Houses have political power, a Cartel does not.

[Krent]

Not really, IMO.


A Cartel is just a mercantile organization (that deals in one thing or another). They are nothing special, except by how much money they -could- make. Noble Houses have political power, a Cartel does not.

Actually, that isn't true. A Cartel is a conglomerate of multiple firms and businesses that have entered into a price-fixing agreement for the sake of economic exploitation. Cartels dictate the supply of a huge portion of goods, controlling the market through sheer economic muscle.

In World of Warcraft, the Goblin Cartels are extremely powerful. They're a collection of hundreds of Moguls, each of whom own one or multiple businesses. Their collusion gives them much more power than an average noble family, as you have multiple businesses and business owners acting as one. Their stranglehold on the international market translates into political capital, which gives them more clout than a single noble family would.

As for the original question--I don't think Cartels should be treated like a noble family. I don't think players should be allowed to create a new Cartel out of thin air. I don't even think players should be rolling Moguls without careful review and consideration.

The scope and power of a Cartel is so huge, it'd be like inventing another faction in the world. We shouldn't be adding new Cartels, for the same reason why we shouldn't be adding new criminal organizations that operate on the level of the Defias Brotherhood and The Syndicate. Quite simply--they'd be way too powerful.

[Diethe]

Well, apart from power which the fellow above me discussed, I'd like to get a bit technical.

In terms of the political entity known as the 'Trade Coalition' which is the main goblin faction, it has its own parallel but not same powers as those of noble Houses. Funnily, as one of our Noble Houses have their fleet, each Goblin Cartel also has their own 'Merchant Fleet', a privateer thing.

It works like Hong Kong's Chief Executives. Five Trade Princes represent the biggest corporations of the Trade Coalition, which is in itself a Special Administrative Government. Of course, there are non-affiliates of the five cartels, while there are also subsidiary businesses and corporations under them. These cartels are basically conglomerates who have corporations under them called subsidiaries. The Trade Princes are the Chief Directors of a company (Probably with their board of directors), Moguls are basically presidents or CEOs of their own respective companies under the cartels, while Barons will be like the presidents or Operating Officers of Cartel lands.

They all have vested interests (Probably in terms of percentage or shares) of the holdings of the entire Trade Coalition entity. Trade Coalition Holdings and cities themselves are administered by appointed Barons who themselves are not separate from their respective cartels. As to individuality and ownership of holdings (Whether for example, Bildgewater Port is an exclusively owned by the Bilgewater, that I'm not sure).

Of course, ranks of the corporate structure are more cutthroat and can easily be changed through sabotage instead of annual investor and board meetings between the Board of Directors, assuming we use the Trade Princes for that. Patents would also probably be a big, exaggerated thing in the Coalition. Also a big difference would probably be slaves.

So, to answer the question. Sure cartels have political power and have significant influence in the Trade Coalition. The Trade Coalition has holdings, deals with outside entities and even kingdoms. There are no separate government entities in the lands owned by the Coalition themselves and are appointed Barons. Bruisers, also employed by the cartel police the holdings while Merchant Fleets act as the entity's military might, although each cartel has one. In terms of Noble House politics and drama, they'd probably be more concerned with ownership of businesses, interests and lands, trying to take more shares and interests from fellow cartels whether it be a PPE or an entire city.

Whether or not we can allow players to run cartels is iffy and probably too much. Maybe if you want to play as a boss of a small business of a cartel whose Trade Prince or Mogul you pretend to work for, that's probably acceptable. You'd be near the bottom of a created Cartel but do take note we're limited to 5 in lore and I'm not sure about the GM answer to inventing cartels. Though we do that with our multitude of 'Stormwind Army' guilds led by Lieutenants and Captains, don't we?

Who would've thought my degree in accountancy would help in Golbin lore?

[Thoradin]

I'd say that a Player Cartel, unless they apply for it or something, would never have the amount of power as an actual one in the Lore. Personally, I am against even more things being restricted in a manner like the Noble Houses are. It's a pain in the ass to get a noble in the first place, but the rest of the new process is ridiculous. No need to do that to, what equates to, a business.

[Harmonic]

It's hard enough right now to even get a regular profile looked at, let alone having to do another type of thing like a noble house.

I would really rather not see more things compared to noble houses, and the process it takes to go through that. Sure, I can see the need for it with noble houses, but it's a pain in the butt to have to do to even play these characters, and the less concepts that are treated like it the better.

[Maulbane]

From what I figure, pretty much everything Goblin is either part of one of the existing cartels (over half of that being the Steamwheedles anyway) or are just tiny, baby upstarts. That'd mean no matter what your rank in those cartels (where all the actual existing infrastructure and power is, anyhow) you'd still be an 'employee' - even if you're a mogul of all the arenas within the Steamwheedle Cartel, you're still being given orders by a guy above you. You may even just be an analogue of middle management.

[Reigen]

I don't believe we allow players to have their own cartel in the first place. The highest rank I've seen is a Mogul. [I could be wrong, but that's the highest special profile for a goblin I've seen.]

[Maulbane]

You can totally make your own cartel to rival the others - just expect to be super-dead super-fast.

[Harmonic]

I don't believe we allow players to have their own cartel in the first place. The highest rank I've seen is a Mogul. [I could be wrong, but that's the highest special profile for a goblin I've seen.]

Trade Prince is the highest, which is super high and above most nobles. That's like, meeting with other princes high type stuff, so it wouldn't make sense to have another Cartel---since there is a specific number of them.

However, having a small group set up like a cartel might work.




It's kinda like how we can't have our own hand for SI:7, since there's only so many hands, and being a thumb would mean you're almost lore-figure status.

[Loxmardin]

I'm of the opinion that player characters shouldn't go any higher than Moguls, since that is already a very high position of significant economical and political power that warrants a Special Profile.

However, I will say that I've actually been suggesting a similar "add-on" form for large businesses (specifically for the owner, since only the owner really possesses any power) in order to track peoples' resources, similar to how we chose to do it with the Noble Houses. If you're going to be the head of an organization that makes you filthy rich and lets you control a small part of a certain market, we'll need to know the details and you, as the owner, should have those details laid out for yourself as well.

[Harmonic]

Aye, I meant that Trade Prince in the highest rank. I said that funny, I -don't- think players should be able to get that high because it's lore figure status.

[Grakor456]

Just going to dump a couple quotes here, first:

A cartel is a formal (explicit) "agreement" among competing firms. It is a formal organization of producers and manufacturers that agree to fix prices, marketing, and production.[1] Cartels usually occur in an oligopolistic industry, where the number of sellers is small (usually because barriers to entry, most notably startup costs, are high) and the products being traded are usually commodities. Cartel members may agree on such matters as price fixing, total industry output, market shares, allocation of customers, allocation of territories, bid rigging, establishment of common sales agencies, and the division of profits or combination of these. The aim of such collusion (also called the cartel agreement) is to increase individual members' profits by reducing competition.

An oligopoly is a market form in which a market or industry is dominated by a small number of sellers (oligopolists). Oligopolies can result from various forms of collusion which reduce competition and lead to higher costs for consumers.[1]
With few sellers, each oligopolist is likely to be aware of the actions of the others. The decisions of one firm therefore influence and are influenced by the decisions of other firms. Strategic planning by oligopolists needs to take into account the likely responses of the other market participants.

Some people seem to think that cartels are just random alliances of merchants, when that's not quite the case. Cartels are out-right defined by having significant market power (to the point where it would be a monopoly if the cartel were a single firm) in a given market. In addition, cartels primarily only show up under particular conditions, especially where the market can't be freely entered by any old schmuck with some money to his name. When a cartel exists, it's a huge deal. (My economics class is paying off.)

You're probably better off just making a particular business/firm rather than reaching so high as to make your own cartel. I don't think some people realize just how huge cartels actually are.

[Harmonic]

It'd be laking making your own human race, or hand of the SI:7, it's bigger than people think and more complicated to make.

Plus, any leader would be expected to meet with lore figures, which is kinda a no-no.

[Xigo]

I always thought the policy was more 'you can't be chums and buddies with lore figures', but it's okay to meet them if it makes sense for your characters. Like I would assume that a general or warlord has met with the king/warchief at some point, and that Warden characters that are old enough have met Maiev. Nobles of countries have a good excuse to have met with their lord. Chieftans of minor Tauren tribes have likely sworn allegiance to the Horde before Cairne. Most, if not all Draenei have met Velen. Vol'jin seems like the sort to have an 'open office' if you're bringing important news to him. The High Tinkerer has probably popped in to check out an invention once in a while.

The only lore figure that I believe is extremely hard to meet is Sylvanas, and that's because of her sort of 'god-queen' status among the Forsaken. (And she has the biggest personal security force in-game).

Anyway, back on topic. There's a set number of actual Cartels with recognized Princes, that's lore. But I think people should be able to rise within the ranks of these organizations, and just make sub-divisions that the Mogul or Baron character watches over.

A Prince among goblins is akin to a King of humans. A mogul of goblins is akin to a noble of humans.