Conquest of the Horde

Full Version: Sewer Swimming: A Guide to Sueism, Godmodding and Clichés
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Hello, everyone. Most of you know who I am, but for those of you that don't, I am HelveteSong, a simple nublet according to one lumberjack GM. 8D Anyways, I've been thinking of publishing another guide...And the more I thought about it, the more I realized: I haven't really seen a guide that covers Sue-ism and how to take care of it when making your character. Rensin's guide about the commonly portrayed stereotypes was a good start, but we need to move deeper into the cesspool that is...the Mary Sue, Godmodding, and Clichés.

[1.0] What is a Mary Sue?
[1.1] Symptoms of Sueism


[2.0] Why should I care about Sueism?

[3.0] Types of Mary Sues
[3.1] Black Hole Sue
[3.2] Purity Sue
[3.3] God Mode Sue
[3.4] Copycat Sue
[3.5] Sympathetic Sue
[3.6] Anti Sue
[3.7] Thirty Sue Pile-up


[4.0] How to avoid Sueism
[4.1] Be Believable
[4.2] Flaws
[4.3] Read the Damn Lore


[5.0] What is God-modding?

[6.0] Why should I care about God-modding?

[7.0] Types of God-modding
[7.1] Aimbotters
[7.2] God-Moders
[7.3] Min-Maxers
[7.4] Miss Cleos
[7.5] McFlys
[7.6] Speedhackers
[7.7] Zoicites
[7.8] Oneshotters
[7.9] Trinities


[8.0] How to stop GMing

[9.0] Cliches
[9.1] I wield Frostmourne/Ashbringer/Gorehowl!
[9.2] I was trained by [Insert lore character of your choice here]!
[9.3] I'm the Son/Daughter of [Insert lore character here]!
[9.4] I'm a Mage/Warrior/Paladin/Shaman/Druid!
[9.5] Amnesia
[9.6] I'm from an alternate dimension!


[10.0] Conclusion

[1.0] What is a Mary Sue?
Why, that's a very good question, kind reader looking at my guide! A Mary Sue, most simply put, is a created character, whether it be in a fanfiction, or in our case, a roleplay, who's too damn perfect to be realistic or believable. For example, a half-angel, half demon warrior who's sword will save the world. Also, he's incredibly handsome, super smart, is invincible, and can make anyone who makes eye contact with him fall in love with him. Believable, right? If you said yes, either you're still new to roleplaying...or need to be taken out of the gene pool. I digress, I'm here to educate, not insult.

[1.1] Symptoms of Sueism
-Being immune too any, all or most status effects/curses/hoaxes.
-Ignoring a fellow roleplayer's attack because your character is just too awesome to be attacked.
-Instantly being strong without any recorded progress of strength/endurance training.
-Usually likes the spotlight on their own character so they use attention seeking methods in order to take the spotlight.
­-Have powers that equal or surpass Thrall/Lich King or any other significantly strong character in World of Warcraft.
-Beauty that is always described in sparkly detail. (Can be overdone)
-You're character comes out of a battle unscathed, scar-less and generally A-OK.
-He/she has spiritual powers that heal the sick, make brownies, make woman fertile without using any mana.
-Other characters tend to get jealous of your ass kickery, good looks, sharp wit, intelligence, and charm.
-He/she suffers from amnesia.
-He/she habitually shares profound wisdom and knowledge
-He/she has Barbie Doll syndrome.
-He/she succeeds in everything.
-Inversely, he/she fails at everything.
-He/she has unusual tatoos that magically appeared.
-He/she has a super model figure.
-He/she has an unnatural hair/eye color when no one else in his/her race can have it.
-His/her parents died horribly (or they just died) and your character is out for revenge.
-He/she the last of his/her race or clan.
-He/she has a demon or something trapped inside himself/herself.

(List copypasta'd from Gaiaonline guild 'Kingdom Hearts: Beyond the Door')

[2.0] Why should I care about Sueism?
Sueism is a very bad thing in roleplaying. It can utterly and unequivically ruin a RP session. A Mary Sue, or its male counterpart, Gary Stu, simply try to make the story all about them, which in a roleplay, frankly sucks. You're playing a character and living out their story! Why the hell should you now worship some dude because he carries a golden sword made of pure Light and knows all of the Dragon Aspect leaders personally and meets up with them to play poker every Thursday?! Pardon my French, but...no. It's never about any one character, but of all of the characters in the world who's actions and influence create one giant story. Even the Canons, despite having Sueish qualities, do not create lore on their own. There is always, always, more than one player in the game of roleplaying. Because if you're roleplaying by yourself, that's not roleplaying, that's just...lonely.


[3.0] Types of Mary Sues
There are many types of Mary Sues, so many to list that it would take up a majority of this guide! But I'll list key ones that we would most likely see on CotH.

[3.1] Black Hole Sue
The Black Hole Sue alters the fabric of reality to accommodate the person's world. All villains stand down after a single quip, all of their allies fall in love with the Sue, and all is right in their messed up little world. To counter this Sue, be humble. Share the limelight. Let the story form without constant tampering.

[3.2] Purity Sue
The Purity Sue is like a saint on overdrive. They're pure, gentle, have a soothing voice, and can do no wrong. To counter this Sue, have some faults, ya know? Maybe she's secretly a sadist, or he has multiple wives. Whatever.

[3.3] God Mode Sue
No one can harm this Sue, he/she's too powerful! All attacks are dodged, all magic immune'd, and nothing will stop this Sue from saving the day! To counter this Sue, take hits in battle. No one is indestructable.

[3.4] Copycat Sue
Exactly as the name implies. This Sue just copies from other people, movies, games, books, TV shows, etc. There is no creativity when it comes to this Sue, and that's what makes them so memorable. To counter this Sue, well, isn't it obvious? Think up your own ideas about your characters!

[3.5] Sympathetic Sue
This Sue cries out for sympathy, everyone has to feel bad for them. I mean, after all, their parents were murdered by bandits, they've been robbed, and no one loves them. Boo hoo. To counter this Sue, don't ask for sympathy. Have something a little positive about your character. If you're playing a down-on-your-luck bum, then I have no comment.

[3.6] Anti Sue
Ah, yes, the Anti Sue. This Sue was created by people attempting to hide their Sueist nature. No longer is she beautiful; she's now a hag. No longer is she intelligent, she's now smart as a sack of bricks. Yet, for being completely useless, ugly, and unintelligent, she's still the center of attention! To counter this Sue, balance out your character with good and bad things about them. She's smart, but a little homely. Rich, yet is crippled by an old war wound. Work with it, people!

[3.7] Thirty Sue Pile-up
The nightmare of all Sues. This is when people cram so many Sues together, it forms a giant Suemonster capable of halting all RP around the server in shock. To counter this Sue...Don't make such a damn Sue in the first place. Dismantle all the Sue pieces from it and restart the character if you need to. [Which you probably do.]


[4.0] How to Avoid Sueism
Now the real question comes up: "Helvete, how do I avoid being a Sue?" Why, that's another good question from you, my faithful reader! Keep this up, and I'll give you a gold star. Avoiding Sueism isn't as scary or difficult as it looks, but there are a few important rules to keep in mind:

[4.1] Be Believable
BY KRETOL HIMSELF, this is the most important out of all the steps. Your character does not need to be Jaina and Arthas' love child who wields Ashbringer to be a good character. Even the most common farmer's child can be a good character as long as they're fleshed out properly. If you're having trouble of whether something is believable or not, remember this? "Would it make sense if my character [insert whatever question you have here]?" If the answer is no, don't toss it in there. No one is perfect, everyone has flaws of some kind. Which leads into my next point.

[4.2] Flaws
Flaws are an important part of your character not being a Sue. No person is ever, truly perfect. And if they say they are, they need my size 12 shoe in their arse. But I doubt it would fit seeing as their head is wedged pretty deep to begin with. Again, I digress. Your orc has scars all over his face and body? He's not a handsome chap, then. Your Dwarf's taken one too many hammers to the noggin? Guess he's no rocket scientist. But not all flaws are physical. I cannot stress this enough. Your Blood Elf is constantly trying to find fel magicks, a xenophobic Night Elf. All of these can help you avoid Sueism and create a character that you normally wouldn't have thought of. IMPORTANT: Clumsiness and naivity are REALLY CRAPPY FLAWS on their own. Have a reason for them. Maybe your character has a permanent limp, so he can't walk right. Maybe your other character is a shut in, so she knows nothing about proper etiquette. Don't be a Bella.

[4.3] Follow the Damn Lore
Simple, yes? Well, for some, not really. I mean, if you don't know the lore, go read up or ask for help! It's reasonable, it's safe, you learn something. Night elves don't go to Ratchet/Booty Bay/ANY Goblin city without a pretty damn good reason to do so. Also, no Belf and Nelf would ever be civilized towards one another. EVER. They'd be at each other's throats. That would also be the same when it came to any Alliance race and any Horde race. There are always exceptions, but again, that's in the lore. If you're too lazy to find it...Tough crap. Go find it, learn it, so you don't look like a fool if someone asks why your troll is walking around with a human and not eating his face.


[5.0] What is God-modding? (GMing)
Ah, GMing. The way to keep a character safe from death, maiming, or any harm period. Also works in reverse, allowing a character to do the impossible and kill any foe, no matter how big or tough or evil. How does a human who's farmed his whole life beat a Night Elf who's been trained for hundreds of years in combat? It doesn't happen without one of two things: Really lucky rolls or God-modding. If you have to God-Mod, you're a cheater. No one likes a cheater. If you think people like cheaters, you're clearly lost in your own land of la la happiness, where vampires sparkle and protagonists have no personality. Do not confuse this with Game Master GMing, they do it for good. Generally. >_>


[6.0] Why should I care about God-modding?
GMing, like Sueism, kills roleplay. Two characters are in a fight, one stabs the other eighteen times in ribs, cuts the other guy's arm off, and stomps on the guy's foot before guy number two can respond. Fair, right? Again, if you answer yes, out of the gene pool with you. you don't get to reproduce. Like I said earlier, GMing is cheating. It's rude, disgusting, and if you do it intentionally...you're an a-hole and deserve a boot to the head.


[7.0] Types of GMing
Like the Mary Sue section, I'll only list the most important ones.

[7.1] Aimbotter
An Aimbotter is one who can fire off an arrow from Booty Bay to Darnassus and hit Tyrande in the face every time.

[7.2] God-Moders
God Moders are the ones who shrug off every attack, even after being impaled by a giant sword, they fight as if nothing was wrong.

[7.3] Min-maxers
Min-maxers are characters that are overly powered and have crappy weaknesses. A perfect example would be Achilles from Greek mythology. Weak point, his heel. His power? DESTROY EVERYONE.

[7.4] Miss Cleos
Miss Cleos use out of character knowledge as in game knowledge, giving them the unfair edge in any roleplaying situation.

[7.5] McFlys
McFlys do everything in hindsight. For example, A swings at B with his sword. Oh, B had already been blocking so the attack doesn't work.

[7.6] Speedhackers
Speedhackers, in short, do impossible things in a small amount of time. For example, a paladin revives six of her fallen allies between attacks from a lone Forsaken.

[7.7] Zoicite
Zoicites alter themselves as needed for each situation that happens to them. Lost in the mountains? Oh, I'm a world class survivalist even though I've never left Ironforge in my life.

[7.8] Oneshotters
People who win fights with instant death attacks. Warlock uses Finger of Death and pwns everyone.

[7.9] Trinities
Trinities suddenly gain abilities with no prior exposure. *Poof!* I'm immune to fire now, and since you're a fire mage.../pumme
l

[8.0] How to Stop/Prevent GMing
Now, how do we stop this pesky and overall not nice issue? Well, simply put, all battles should be roll battles if you're worried on trust. You can't God-mod a roll in WoW that isn't quite obvious. I can't really make it any clearer than this: Use common sense. Don't dodge every attack. If you're in plate armor, you'll have a harder time dodging than someone in leather armor. And people in leather armor will take more damage from a weapon attack compared to someone in plate armor. It's not that complicated.


[9.0] Clichés
Clichés are ideas that overly used and are no longer really that creative or unique. Yes, they seem fancy, but in reality, it's not. Get over it.

[9.1] I wield Frostmourne/Ashbringer/Gorehowl!
Umm, no, you don't. Lore weapons belong to LORE CHARACTERS. There is no reason why you should ever have one of these. EVER. Unless some kindly god on high decides your character is worthy of wielding a lore weapon, you don't get one. Also, the chances of you actually getting a lore weapon? Zero to none.

[9.2] I was trained by [Insert lore character of your choice here]!
I understand that you're trying to make your character super and everything, but this is just plain sad. You don't need a lore character to make your character cool. You need to use what the lore gives you and work with it. Lore characters obviously affect the lore, but you don't need a personal relationship with Arthas for your character to be a great person.

[9.3] I'm the Son/Daughter of [Insert lore character here]!
Just like the previous one, but worse. That would mean the lore character had to have bumped uglies with another person, which raises the question of when the f**k they would have had time to do so since they were, you know, busy making lore!? So if you think this is a good idea, you would be wrong. No character should be close to lore characters.

[9.4] I'm a Mage/Warrior/Paladin/Shaman/Druid!
Can anyone tell me what's wrong with this? If you can't, I'll explain. This person has decided to cram five different classes into one to make a super character. This is what I like to call overkill. Once again, you don't need your characters to be this special. Although, to be honest, Blizzard did this with Me'dan, who is the son of Garona Halforcen and Medivh, meaning he's one half Human, one quarter Orc, and one quarter Draenei. He can use mage spells, shaman spells, and is learning in the light as a paladin. My conclusion: Blizzard has lost all creativity.

[9.5] Amnesia
"Oh my god, I have amnesia! I can't remember who I am!" There was a reason this is banned from being used in profiles. Mainly because it means you're a lazy bastard who wants to not make a history for your character. That is disappointing in its own right, but I am once again here to teach, not judge. Rule of thumb, though: Amnesia is totally unentertaining and should not be used by people writing their profiles.

[9.6] I'm from an alternate dimension!
Simply put, the Warcraft universe already has a huge amount of lore to work with. Stay in our dimension please. Unless you're from Outland. Then you are allowed. Otherwise, I've only got one thing to say to that: GTFO.


[10.0] Conclusion
My conclusion is simple and to the point. Sueism is a serious issue in Roleplaying, but it can be averted if you follow simple steps and be creative. If you're having trouble, you can always ask for help. God-modding is cheating, and you will be flogged for it if you're doing it intentionally. If you don't if you are or not, check and see if you're giving the other person a fair chance to respond to your post. Finally, avoid clichés. They never look good and make you seem like a really bad roleplayer. In the end, it all comes down to respect for your better roleplayer. And if you can't respect your fellow roleplayer, you can frankly go to hell
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The End
Quote:He/she suffers from amnesia.
-His/her parents died horribly (or they just died) and your character is out for revenge.

Otherwise it's good, but this part

I don't really... Amnesia is a real sickness. I think you should mention that if it's not done well, don't do it at all.

And a lot of people lose their parents, and most are a tad bit angry about it, wouldn't you say?

Point! I think you come out a bit too strong about amnesia or parental revenge issues.

Anyone else?
I think you should add that in most cases a Mary Sue is a projection of the player into the fantasy setting, usually an attempt to pander to their own insecurities.
Since "Believability" is the king concept of the article, at least how I read it, I don't think the cliches were to be seen as "no go"-s. Rather - as things very often used as cheap ways out of building proper character motivation /history /personality /spechulness.

A belf who likes nature and hates fel, with parents who died early and episodes of amnesia can be RPd - but everyone in the place interracting with him better dam feel it's a consistent and coherent character.

That being said, perhaps a small line under one of the section on lore-nazism would be warranted - people who decide something can't be RPd under no circumstances at all because the character is not like the majority of its race/class without ever having RPd with the character or looked at the motivation for the difference.

A highlight on the idea that each deviation from the class/race norm requires an explanation - and the bigger the deviation the better and deeper the explanation needs to be - might be good to be explicited somewhere in the guide.

I don't think attributing mary-sueness to player personality flaws/self-esteem is necessary. When I came in to CotH almost a year ago, my first toon was an amnesiac kal'dorei druid that loved to be in Stormwind and loved all races - and it wasn't because I was pandering to my insecurities but rather because of a lack of lore-awarenss and RP experience.

Still, I would go so far as to say this article should, IMO, be a mandatory read for peon-ship or at least grunt-ness - because if everyone on the server would skim through it with good intention, the RP quality could only improve.
Quote:He/she has Barbie Doll syndrome.
OH NO! ROOVE IS A MARY SUE!?!?
hahaha, that was funny (the quote atleast).
DaveM Wrote:I don't think attributing mary-sueness to player personality flaws/self-esteem is necessary. When I came in to CotH almost a year ago, my first toon was an amnesiac kal'dorei druid that loved to be in Stormwind and loved all races - and it wasn't because I was pandering to my insecurities but rather because of a lack of lore-awarenss and RP experience.

Then that isn't Mary Sue, just ridiculous. A Mary Sue has a precise definition, as it's based off of a character made by a person. The meaning has admittedly been misconscrued a lot over time, but it doesn't mean anything what your kal'dorei was. A Mary Sue is usually a character used for the simple purpose of self-insertion, or as wikipedia would have it "Wish fulfillment", which is true. It's a literary carriage to put yourself into a book or world and to throw yourself around and make yourself seem great, greater than you could probably be in real life even if you try your best.

EDITEDIT: For example, in Paula Smith's story Mary Sue was the best captain in the Star Trek whateveritis fleet and she was only 15.
@ Maul - Well, we're down to semantics then. :)

While the strict sense of Mary Sue is indeed what you're saying, it could be also understood that the overall concept of "Sueism" has come to include less specific character-building flaws.

All I was saying was that there's no need to make the step from any type of bad character to the player's personality flaws, even if only to avoid hurting feelings.

@ Drak - Heh, Belves actually come close to being Sue-istic if they -don't- have a Barbie Doll syndrome.
Eh, I thought you were talking about the meaning there, not the whole talking about the player him/herself thing, so I guess I got a bit verbose. Whoops.

Yeah, I agree with that. Although if someone refuses to change their ways over a long period of time I say they're asking for it.
Moving for usefulness!

Very nice guide.
DaveM Wrote:@ Drak - Heh, Belves actually come close to being Sue-istic if they -don't- have a Barbie Doll syndrome.
So you're telling me, no matter what Roove is a mary sue?!
There seems to be some confusion about what this guide is for. I would have put on the ending, but the title was too long. The point of this guide is to make people avoid creating over-used character ideas or just be a godmodding S-O-B. It's to avoid these common character stereotypes so you can really make your own character. Now, to cover people's comments.

Azheron: Yes, amnesia is a real sickness. However, I don't want to see new players writing up their profiles and saying: 'History Unknown. He has amnesia.' Not a lot of people can play having amnesia correctly. Just like a lot of people have trouble roleplaying with accents correctly, like me. ._. As for the vengence thing, it's completely unreasonable that most of the races would be out for vengence. The only ones that I can think of that have a truly reasonable right to be seeking vengence would be the Gnomes and the Blood Elves, and that's because their cities were ransacked and many were killed, most likely their parents. Also, the point was not about war killing someone's parents [Shit, the game is called WARcraft], but more like Batman style. Like some guy showed up at so-and-so character's house and kills his parents. He scours the world searching for his parent's killer. The idea is overdone.

Maulbane: True, that is the main definition of Mary Sue. However, it applies more to fanfiction than it does to roleplaying. So I had to adapt it to Roleplaying.

Drak: Yes, I'm sorry, your blood elf is a Sue. They need to be taken out and shot immediately. Not really, it's fine.

Hawk: Thank you for the nice compliment. 8D
HelveteSong Wrote:Azheron: Yes, amnesia is a real sickness. However, I don't want to see new players writing up their profiles and saying: 'History Unknown. He has amnesia.' Not a lot of people can play having amnesia correctly. Just like a lot of people have trouble roleplaying with accents correctly, like me. ._. As for the vengence thing, it's completely unreasonable that most of the races would be out for vengence. The only ones that I can think of that have a truly reasonable right to be seeking vengence would be the Gnomes and the Blood Elves, and that's because their cities were ransacked and many were killed, most likely their parents. Also, the point was not about war killing someone's parents [Shit, the game is called WARcraft], but more like Batman style. Like some guy showed up at so-and-so character's house and kills his parents. He scours the world searching for his parent's killer. The idea is overdone.
It sure is damn overdone.

And I didn't mean writing "History unknown". I was talking about just having it, not using it to make so-called "easy" character profiles.. And I can't really do accents either.

And I think there isn't enough war on CotH, but that's another topic.
This many rules, but It seems nobody is really bothering to follow them, especially when I saw night elves and blood elves loitering around in RATCHET, talking CHIT-CHAT with EACHOTHER!
Sadly, indeed... all we can do is to follow this guide ourselves, and hopefully enlighten people while we're at it, of course there's always the possibility that they have some valid reasons/whatever, or have done some mega-arpee leading to the buddy-buddy...

>.>... Also I know of a Blood Elf Night Elf married couple... *shudder*
DaveM Wrote:That being said, perhaps a small line under one of the section on lore-nazism would be warranted - people who decide something can't be RPd under no circumstances at all because the character is not like the majority of its race/class without ever having RPd with the character or looked at the motivation for the difference.

This is a very good point I want to expand on. It's a sort of reverse Sue-ism. Essentially, you get these lore nazis that feel that every character created must adhere to the groundwork laid by Blizzard.

For example, I have a troll engineer who hates voodoo/shamanism and sees magic as "just another element, like fire or water". Lore dictates that trolls are very mystical and have these deep racial beliefs. I've known a few canon-nazis who would demand that trolls all wear grass skirts and hail from the jungle, and all dwarves must be hardy mountain men who love beer and mining. It saps all of the life and color out of character creation.

Really ought to be a phrase for the nega-Sue, a character so afraid of breaking the established canon they have no distinguishing characteristics and are simply a grey, gelatinous blob running around the server beating wildlife to death.

There is a very fine line between overdoing a character (MY ORC IS THE SON OF THRALL AND HE HAS ALL HIS ARMOR AND WEAPONS AND TOTALLY KICKS RUMPUS) and underdoing one (My orc is just another footsoldier in Thrall's army. He's good with swords and he's pretty comfortable in armor. He was trained by the Horde combat trainers and has no distinguishing characteristics at all).
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