Conquest of the Horde

Read the entire post before you panic.

I would first like to apologize about the delays on the Prestige Reform. You can blame me, as it is my fault. I've disliked the system for a while now, and I've finally decided to speak up on it again and offer an alternative. Before I get to that, however, I think I should give a history lesson on the system.

The original Prestige system, as it pertains to CotH, was thought up during the process of the first server restart. I was the one who suggested the original idea (something that I regret, as I've come to loathe system almost immediately and during the entire time it has been on our server.) It was put in in order to regulate and limit the people who go around claiming to be highly powerful or prestigious titles, like Demon Hunter or Blademaster, which we had a ton of before the first restart. While it did work at doing this, it also came with a number of flaws.

The original system involved players training under GM-controlled teachers, until the GM was satisfied and let them go through. This became a problem as that was too much work on the GMs themselves. Since then, the system has been undergoing revision after revision until we have what we did before the current reform...a system so strict that very few people actually went through with it. In short, the one thing that has been a constant, for a year now, is that it has never worked to our satisfaction.

Another problem that I recently pointed out is that the prestige system is a D20 concept, and doesn't really mesh well with what we already see in WoW. For example, let's take the Shaman class. Shaman already, by default, have many, even most, of the iconic abilities of several of the "titles" that relate to them, such as Witch Doctors, Spiritwalkers, and Far Seers. Even more, our base classes are now competing with Death Knights, which are by all rights a very powerful class, even at their mass-produced setting in Wrath. In short, our base classes are, in many ways, already as strong as what a D20 Prestige would be. I see little problem with someone saying that they are a Witch Doctor, or a Spiritwalker, or an Elven Ranger, and so on.

As those of you who attended the last Meet and Greet are aware, the current idea to keep the system is to set up a system of categories. Certain "titles" would be a category that you can just up and pick up off the bat, another would be something you would pursue but don't need GM permission for, and the most powerful would be similar to how we have things now. This would keep a highly structured system in place and would make things more open than it was in the past. On the other hand, it does not address the core problem of Prestiges being a D20 concept and not meshing with our game very well.

The alternative I suggested on the GM boards, and am suggesting here now, is to scrap the system altogether and replace it with another, less structured means of gaining power. Think of it less as "d20 Prestige" and more "WoW Elite." You work towards something with a GM "okay", put forth an idea of what you would like to gain from it, and then go from there. You could either go for a certain title ("My character wants to perfect the blade and be a Blademaster") or continue as your character is, just more powerful ("My character is a particularly powerful Death Knight"). It would be less structured and more free-form, and open up people to go ahead and say that they're whatever titles that aren't particularly much more powerful than the baseline classes without having to jump through hoops. On the other hand, it would be scrapping a system that has had a bit of work put into it already, and may be a little more open to abuse. Some may also find the lack of structure overall to be a downside.

I think that's enough rambling from me on this so far. Thoughts? Questions? Concerns? Opinions?

I agree with opening up the classes a bit more. As you said, some of the classes are so close to current abilities that it makes sense to keep them open. Also, I'd be interested in seeing the actual list to know what classes would fall under each "level".

I guess perhaps we should look at it in terms of rp versus that of power alone. If we could think of witch doctor as simply another focus of shaman, that seems alright. However, something like farseer would be probably much more up there to get, and we wouldn't want it to become common at the expense of metagaming.

The categories sounds like a better idea, especially if some prestiges are just a different "flavor" of character. Should I need to go through some extensive amount of training and rp, for example, to play a technomage when my gnome is already an engineer and a mage? I do see some prestiges as less plausible than others to pick up off the bat- those being things like felsworn and such.

Perhaps some of the iffier/stronger prestiges should be done with a special profile, but I'll leave that up to CotH to decide.

Yes I believe our characters should be able to work towards it, because at times my main (Iscaro) his history has wrapped around him becoming a gladiator, I made a story for his motives to go back to arena and so forth, but actually earning the title is what confuses me.

Vind101 Wrote:Yes I believe our characters should be able to work towards it, because at times my main (Iscaro) his history has wrapped around him becoming a gladiator, I made a story for his motives to go back to arena and so forth, but actually earning the title is what confuses me.

You would be able to do so either way.

The question is more what should the system itself be? Should it be the Prestige System, which has rigid definitions of what qualifies as being more powerful and goes with the D20 lore closely, or something more free-form without such rigid definitions?

I think it should be free-form so long as the prestige itself is not overpowered or out there. However, in those cases I think the GMs can pass judgment on whether a felsworn or such should be allowed to take casually or not.

Probably still more along the D20 system.
Prestige classes are, inherently, specialized class variants.
Which would require constant training and whatnot to acheive.
While it should be hard to acheive, it shouldn't be impossible.

Honestly, I think it should take a spesh profile on top of your current characters profile to get the title.

In my opinion, the Prestige system, as you've described it, would bring a -lot- of much needed freedom and diversion to Roleplay on the server. I especially love this:

Quote:Shaman already, by default, have many, even most, of the iconic abilities of several of the "titles" that relate to them, such as Witch Doctors, Spiritwalkers, and Far Seers. Even more, our base classes are now competing with Death Knights, which are by all rights a very powerful class, even at their mass-produced setting in Wrath. In short, our base classes are, in many ways, already as strong as what a D20 Prestige would be. I see little problem with someone saying that they are a Witch Doctor, or a Spiritwalker, or an Elven Ranger, and so on.

As those of you who attended the last Meet and Greet are aware, the current idea to keep the system is to set up a system of categories. Certain "titles" would be a category that you can just up and pick up off the bat, another would be something you would pursue but don't need GM permission for, and the most powerful would be similar to how we have things now. This would keep a highly structured system in place and would make things more open than it was in the past.

In all seriousness, I am quite fine with both systems, namely, the 'Three types of Prestiges: From 'off the bat' to 'Story with no approval' to 'Story with approval'' and the 'Just get an 'okay' and develop your character from there', as they both bring exactly what the Prestige system needs: A breath of fresh air.

While both systems bring a considerable opportunity for abuse, my opinion is that the player-base is trustworthy enough not to mess up, if given the chance. I mean, seriously, you're, to quote an earlier post 'Giving out stuff for free'. It'd be rather dumb to bite the hand that feeds you new RP opportunities, no?

The thing which I like about the more free form concept is that it allows for classes which make sense on a simple logical standpoint, but aren't allowed (without extensive work!) due to some random limitation.

Originally Lodur, as a character end goal, was going to be a runemaster of sorts. Extremely powerful runes inscribed throughout his body, with a strong command of them due to his background as an arcane mage. He wasn't going to be as strong physically as most runemasters or have the melee fighting proficiency associated, but he'd have some of the perks along with runes that would lend themselves to being more practical to a casting based runemaster.

Being a human mage disqualifies you from becoming a runemaster, but logically that doesn't make much sense. At least in this context.

Quote:Runemasters are monk-like arcane spellcaster and melee fighters who empower themselves with magical energies by inscribing runes onto their bodies.

Quote:Rare is the human runemaster, and dwarven mentors teach almost all of them.

With the background Lodur had, along with his approach, the inability for him to seek out and inscribe runes onto his body to strengthen himself seems a bit...absurd to say the least.

So I feel like the more open system really improves on this area (although I hear you can do this kind of thing now with a rock-solid profile and a lot of research backing it up) and would allow for deep character customization that would feel more realistic.

Although it does somewhat lend itself to abuse through min-maxing. Take one skill her, one skill there, and eventually you could build such a strong character that he would be nearly unstoppable. I'm sure that the GMs would handle anything like that which would come up, but it is a concern.

TL;DR: I think the open system is the way to go, although it does open up the option to min-max. Definitions of classes should be kept, if for nothing else to keep the process of creating a specific variant for your character quite a bit easier.

Personally I think it should lax a little, not a whole lot, just a little.

It should be more of the Free-Form as mentioned previously. Why? Because of the same reasons Wuvvums is saying. Some pressy's are just flavors of one class with a couple of extra talents. Example: Witch Doctor or Necromancer

Others, like Demon Hunter and whatnot, should be like what we have. Character goes through various stages of posting and training or whatnot. Why again? Because Demon Hunters and Felsworn and things of that ilk are very powerful.

I also see some of those side Prestige Class as being more towards free-form as well.
By side pressy's I mean things like Brewmaster or Tinker or something as such. Depending on what they are, they should be at least special profile to a lazed extent. Like an extended Profile detailing more things then what the normal profile system requires.


And on another note, I have seen many regular servers like CotH (That aren't loldragons/demons/titans and such) allow a good few 'Prestige' classes as regular classes. Like Necromancer, Beastmaster, Marksman, and a few other ones that aren't truly OP. Hell any gun-user could become a great marksman if they have had a lot of experience in-game or in their history. It's not so much of a Prestige as it is an experienced Rifleman.

That's my two cents.

I like your alternative idea, Grakor. It makes a prestige class feel more like a natural progression of a character, yet keeps people from going 'Uhh...I'm a Fel Sworn because it sounds cool' or something like that.

I think that no matter what though, you must have permission from a GM to have a character become a prestige class. I trust our GMs to know the lore and have high enough standards where we won't have a metric ton of prestige characters running around the place.

However, with this system, it is most likely going to be -hell- for the GMs during the first month when it is out. Therefore, I propose that one should post a ticket with the desired prestige character ingame. After which, a GM would see to the ticket, and send a letter to the player telling them 'Okay, send me more details on this on my forum account: 'X' ' or something like that.

Expunged.

I think it could be something we put into place into the current character application process, such as, add a space stating class, and regardless of if its one of the core classes, they should have to add a paragraph or so detailing how and why they chose the class. After all, in all honesty, even being a mage takes years of dedicated training, never mind some of the prestiges. Now, this would only work with those that are not demon hunters, but the gm's could specify "suggest what you like in the class section, and it will be reviewed, but for -these- you need a bit more", These being, your demon hunters and the like.

My two cents

I do like this idea, but on a side note at Thoradin I don't think certain prestiges are just a class flavor. Like necromancer, in my opinion, it isn't a flavor class because necromancers can become -very- powerful. But reconsidering what I just said...perhaps there is an Epic Prestige system, because there are quite a few prestige classes with epic variants which make them more powerful, that would make sense to have limits on. Like an Epic Necromancer, they have a spell that if they physically touch their target, their target's flesh instantly melts away and they become a skeletal servant. Basically, mt point is that there needs to be some restriction who can do things like that, or if they can at all.

I agree with free form. I also agree that the former Prestige System kind of made me want to bang my head against a wall when I looked at it.

My particular interest in the free form prestige idea is the ability to create a new character with the basis of prestige, with still the amount of work put into it. In addition to a character profile, a thesis of acquiring skills and such - however one goes about these things - is presented. Honestly, I've always thought you should be able to create a Prestige character, as long as the necessary effort and interest was put into it.

For example. You could roll a character who likes to shoot things, and has gotten severely good at it. But the problem pre-prestige reformation? If you are supposed to be so fantastic of a shot, as you dictated the character should be, who's to say you aren't a Deadshot Prestige? Then, the drama flies in through the window. I think the new idea would take some of the shackles off that the old system places on RP.

Excuse my incoherent old man babble.