I've been lurking about more often lately, if people haven't noticed.
I was reading a topic that was locked recently, and it raised a few points I've been wanting to make for a while now about the way character combat and death are handled. These are just my opinions, but I think there could be some value to the community if I shared them.
I suppose I will start rather bluntly: frankly, I'm disappointed at the way combat is handled here on CotH. I'm not talking about the roll system, although anyone who knows me will know just how much I despise it. Rather, what I have in mind is the shallowness that is imposed on the player by the roll system, and the way we, well, roll with it.
To put it simply, for being a roleplaying server, there's an awful lack of creativity in the fights I see. Mostly, this is due to the roll mechanics. Some things just can't be represented accurately by "losing a hitpoint," and because it cannot be represented or governed by the roll of a dice or the subtraction of a single number, it isn't used. Too often, when someone shows the ace in their sleeve, whoever they're fighting with ignores it, simply because they do not know how to respond to it, given the rules that are in place.
How do you handle being on fire? I assure you that a mage's fireball would not simply do "one point of damage." It would burn off your hair and turn you into a (temporarily) living torch as your clothes burnt and armor heated white hot. This is why mages terrify people. Stop, drop, and roll? Does that put out a magical fire? For that matter, does stopping, dropping, and rolling consume your actions and default back to the other person's turn, or do you still get to move or attack as well?
How do you handle having a dreamless sleep potion smashed in your face? The glass shards would introduce the chemical into your bloodstream, and inhaling the fumes from the sublimating liquid would too, eventually. In theory, you should be knocked unconscious and be at the attacker's mercy. He could cut your throat while you were out and kill you in one fel swoop, no matter what your hitpoint count was. Doesn't this apply to a polymorph, too? Hard to avoid having your head lopped off when you're a sheep.
Stop and think about this, and then get back to me with your thoughts on a way to reform this if you're not satisfied with it. The two things I listed are just examples -- I'm sure there are more you creative folks can think of.
Sometimes when I'm fighting and I get knocked flat on my face, take a really bad crit or something similar, I almost hope that the other person just goes right ahead with another attack while I'm down instead of standing there smugly like some ninny! Similarly, I wonder how many people could -actually- get up after a Tauren introduces fist to face. Y'know?
But any other system we come up with runs into issues involving comprehension, length, complexity and basic willingness to comply & ...uniformity.
There's been a lot of discussion on this, involving having people win lots of fights to get roll bonuses, adding in minor "stats" such as strength, defense and speed, and other things. But without an easy to learn or use actual in-game system, you'll have trouble finding people to go along with it.
If you want to try anything, Mouma is always up for having the roll gods laugh at her.
Well, I prefer trust fights over roll fights personally. It is during these that one can act appropriately to damage and not have to worry about 'Oh, I still have 4 hp left, I can't be KO'd by this attack yet'.
The roll system is only used for fights where you don't really trust the other party in the fight. So, if you want to do something like 'snuff someone with a rag' or something, ask them if you can do a trust fight instead of a roll fight. I believe people should know what their character can and cannot do by now, yes?
I understand your situation. But we just need to simply consider that we can't all trust fight. Which is unfortunate, but true.
I prefer trust, as I just find it silly that my gnome would be in any fit state to fight after being kicked by a tauren. Its just not possible. xD
Also, if you look at reality, if you stabbed, even with a small blade, or shot, that's it, game over, your unconscious with a good chance of death. Yet with roll-fights you see people stabbed numerous times with a broadsword, or shot repeatedly, and they carry on like some kinda terminator, and quite happily walk out of the arena, maybe with a small limp. My character's generally leave an arena victorious, or are unable to leave without being dragged out, though with a roll-fight I find myself wondering just how I can write about how someone hacked at my gnome with a giant axe and left her relatively fit to fight.
Also, the sheer amount of times people can get hit in the shoulder astounds me, none of us, myself included, should have any shoulders left!
I totally agree with you, Miah, but whenever I suggest a trust fight people are like, "e_e Noes..."
Unfortunately, to achieve this level of realism, you either need a serious amount of trust between players, or a very complicated system to take into account all the scenarios that could happen in a fight. Rules for fireballs, rules for potions as melee weapons, rules for every spell and spell-like effect in the game. Otherwise, someone is probably going to be offended and upset when they are one-hit killed, despite the fact that realistically, that would happen a lot.
Roll combat can utilize fancy descriptions to try and break the wall of HP; I find that it's best to combine rolling and trust, to an extent, so that you can say, "Well, my character really wouldn't win in this situation," and have it end the way it should. The numbers are really there so that people are on even terms, if they don't know each other well enough to trust-fight. And sometimes the roleplay suffers because of it. That said, it doesn't have to, if the players are willing to be creative and roll with the punches.
It's good to see the trust fighters weighing in here. I always thought it was a woefully underused system, despite the potential for exploitation. Allow me to respond individually to a few notes here: Aphetoros, trust me, you're not alone.: it's never been a particularly popular system, as far as I know, compared to the roll fight. Miah, what also surprises me is how people don't really know the role the shoulder plays. It's far from just meat! I have a rotator cuff injury, and sometimes it makes it so I can't bear any weight with my left hand! If you took a hit to the shoulder, you'd be in no shape to fight; also, once it scarred, you'd never be in the shape to fight again! I try to objectify that kind of damage with my
Doing Damage guide.
You've all brought some good points to the table. Really, I think it would be fair to say that the issue boils down to two separate issues: the problem of roll fighting being too restrictive whilst trust fighting is too open as one, and for two, the problem of complexity. Neither of these are an easy nut to crack.
Seraphim, as much as it pains me to say, I think you've struck pretty close to the truth here. It's just a difficult failure for me to accept, though, given what a community of creative minds we have going here. There must be some way to get some kind of combat system on the table that will allow for a little more subtlety than what we're dealing with here. Dungeons and Dragons did it, and Shadowrun did it too (and did it better, as far as I'm concerned), but we can't get the ball rolling and get a solution together that will give us the creative edge?
I think we need a roll system which could go something like this.
start with 10 health each. Roll less than your opponent, its a miss, for every 10 over, it increases the severity of a hit. So a 40 attack VS 30 defence is a glancing blow, lose 1 health, a 20 defence against an 80 attack means you have had some major damage done to you, -6 health, and so on. This way, those monstrously powerful attacks have some clout, while occasionally your character could get lucky. You could also devise something along the lines of, If you end the fight with -5 health or less, you are left with a permanent injury. -9 (Meaning you were on one health and someone struck you with as powerful attack as possible) Then it would kill you, which would be very rare accidental death, kinda thing you expect in an arena, or other situation where roll-fighting occurs.
Its off the top of my head, so its definitely not perfect, but something along those lines might make it easier. Especially if such a thing were combined with trust, like taking a huge hit might influence a character to surrender, due to the risk of having a serious injury if they carry on.
About the injuries. Keep in mind there are many types of heals that Druids, Priests, Paladins, Shamans and the like, can do that can quite litterally repair your body like new over a period of time, and a short one at that. As per the combat system. I agree at many levels and I also really like the idea Miah has devised.
Stormgald Wrote:About the injuries. Keep in mind there are many types of heals that Druids, Priests, Paladins, Shamans and the like, can do that can quite litterally repair your body like new over a period of time, and a short one at that.
Perhaps priests and paladins, but I've always been lead to understand that druids and shaman merely boost your own regenerative powers to greater heights -- thus, scarring and other complications might still exist. What I have always been curious about is what happens if, say, you are hit with an arrow and snap the shaft off (as was a common practice) before going for healing. Would the foreign object, i.e. arrowhead, remain buried within you? This raises serious questions about possible infection within a closed wound, later reopening of the injury, lead poisoning from bullets, etc.
This is all somewhat beside the point in a way, but I can't resist commenting on it. Medical RP was my main forte for a while there.
Miah, I'm liking what I see there. I won't be able to try it out myself (what with the whole no WoW installed anymore thing), but I encourage some folks to try some sparring out with it and see how it works. Let's work on this and refine it into something great -- not that it isn't already, but you get the idea.
I tend to like mixing in trust and rolls, the trust part so we can trade some actions that are less damaging/non damaging such as disarms then roll for the actual hits. Three hp each usually works best with that so it takes at least two hits to bring you down, yet is still quick enough so that you don't spend 30 minutes on a rollfight.
I think there's something to be said in 'HP =/= health' necessarily. Before Saga Edition Star Wars RPG, they used 'Vitality Points'. I've always like that for the implicit connotations. What if losing 1hp did not mean getting hit with the fireball? What if it, rather, meant barely dodging the fireball and being mildly singed by the blast?
Note: Just playing Devil's Advocate here, I myself HATE most roll systems used here. Even the one I myself proposed feels woefully inadequate.
Still, I think it a valid point to be made. It is restrictive, in my mind, to think of HP as necessarily linked to bodily injury. Fatigue is, more often than not, just as large a factor in who will win and who will lose.
To be honest, doing things like throwing a Dreamless Sleep potion into people's face is just a quick way of godmodding a victory, and unless the opposing person would agree, there'd be so much drama.
Seraphim Wrote:Unfortunately, to achieve this level of realism, you either need a serious amount of trust between players, or a very complicated system to take into account all the scenarios that could happen in a fight. Rules for fireballs, rules for potions as melee weapons, rules for every spell and spell-like effect in the game. Otherwise, someone is probably going to be offended and upset when they are one-hit killed, despite the fact that realistically, that would happen a lot.
Roll combat can utilize fancy descriptions to try and break the wall of HP; I find that it's best to combine rolling and trust, to an extent, so that you can say, "Well, my character really wouldn't win in this situation," and have it end the way it should. The numbers are really there so that people are on even terms, if they don't know each other well enough to trust-fight. And sometimes the roleplay suffers because of it. That said, it doesn't have to, if the players are willing to be creative and roll with the punches.
Seraph pretty much summed up what my opinions were. If you were halfway through a fight and suddenly your opponent conjured something that would have them instantly win, wouldn't you be objecting to it?
Actually, with an arrangement before the fight is roleplayed, it can be portrayed by the rolling system, too. It just has to be modificated. I tried that a lot, but few roleplayers were agreeing to it with the comment, that it would be too complicated.
For example, an attack that knocks someone else down, can simply lead to the loss of the next turn of that player. Or the fireball can simply do 2 HP first and then constantly 1 Hp every turn, until the enemy is burned down or jumped into a river. Everything is possible, but only if you and the other players are okay with it.
The rules about the fighting systems aren't really that strict, in the end it's only important, that there is no drama. As long as you and the other player can deal with it, you could do almost anything. The thing is, that you can't trust others on the internet that easily and despite what is being said, there still often happens the opposite of it, because talking about something and really dealing with it are two different things.