I wanted to say a few things about the prestige systems in general without derailing Brutal's thread. Brutal's thread should be about his prestige ideas while my thread is to examine the last two prestige systems, and a speculation on why they didn't work, and why it may be difficult to fix it up.
The first system:
In the first system characters had to write up an application before they could start training. Then they would start writing their prestige posts, and before posting them up to the forums a GM had to look over the post and approve it. While it may sound simple, the biggest con here was too much GM oversight.
This prestige system was in effect when GMs had the responsibilities of silver tokens, profiles, and moderating the community too. Fortunately there were only a small handful of prestiges at a time, but it would still mean one responsibility among the other responsibilities that GMs had to carry out.
In short the system was sluggish and hard to get into, so prestiges were very few. In fact the only training posts I remember seeing at this time were Mouse's for Mochla.
The second system:
The second system broke up prestiges into three tiers. While some of us may consider the three tiers to rank by power, I don't believe that was the sole purpose of introducing tiers. To me it seemed tiers were more categories.
Tier 1: prestiges that didn't require training, only grunthood. These were the more “normal†or typical prestiges I am guessing. A sapper is just a tinker that specializes in explosions. An ace is a mounted combatant. Heck, most people probably rped buccaneers simply as pirates. Because of this there wasn't a huge focus on these prestiges, and they were regarded as being on the level of normal classes.
Tier 2: this tier required training and GM notification. Training posts were done on the forum. However, these posts didn't need to be reviewed by GMs. The problem is that a lot of people were announcing and taking these prestiges and we had a high volume because all it needed was some typing. I admit even for me it was pretty easy to lay down and write a story line and get my prestige.
Tier 3: these were very special classes that required GM approval. They were only for players that could be trusted with the power of it. I am not sure if GMs were required to monitor the postings of tier 3s, but tier 3 had a GM barrier to it.
So in short tier 1 was no training, tier 2 was training but you had to tell GMs, and tier 3 was training but only if GMs allowed it.
The second system allowed for too many prestiges. I never seen so many people hyped up for a prestige system until we had this system in place.
The third system: The third system isn't here yet and people are very eager for it to be. In truth we may not see this system for awhile. I can't exactly say why it may be difficult or take a long time to come up with a new system, but I do think the main issue was trying to find a balance between how many prestiges we would have at a time.
The first system was too exclusive while the second system was too inclusive. I do not think the issue is not whether it's too hard or too easy to get a prestige, but more the barrier to entry. This problem is one that I think would be very hard to reconcile, and I heard that all GMs must come in agreement for a new system to pass. In the meantime it is probably good to make some suggestions that could work, but the solution will most likely not be an easy one at all.
I can't really say this is the reason why the prestige system is tricky, but it may be a start. I'd like to see the system come back some day myself but I have a feeling until there's a solution to the entry problem, it will take some time to sort everything out.
I'd like the first system back.
I'll second Xigo here, I think the first system worked and when I was here we only had 5 GM's and it worked out alright. Now we got what ten or so? So it should still be good.
I think that if we used the second system and limited the number of Category 1s anyone could take, then we'd have a viable solution.
What about people who'd developed a lot since the new system was introduced? We -have- prestige characters who exist with substantial stories. If people have to give up their prestiges because it was retroactively changed, that'd be rather disappointing.
Etmosril Wrote:I think that if we used the second system and limited the number of Category 1s anyone could take, then we'd have a viable solution.
What about people who'd developed a lot since the new system was introduced? We -have- prestiges with substantial stories. If people have to give up their prestiges because it was retroactively changed, that'd be rather disappointing.
I don't think the issue was category 1s so much as category 2s, but I digress.
I didn't like the idea of retroactively changing classes either.
Hmm... it's possible. But I think the only reason there was such a population explosion is because until that point, it really was too exclusive. And once people saw the chance to get something they really wanted, they jumped for it. If that theory's correct, then it would even out in time. Particularly since people often create new characters, but they can't affect the pre-set limit.
One of the problems I had with the old system is that it was a very long, arduous process to be accepted. I waited several months for a response on mine.
Mmm, I rather liked the old old system where it was just a profile, players can work out their own training and what have you if that's what they wish, and it allows the GMs to filter who gets prestige classes and how many are around.
I've never quite gotten why folks should have to write up storyline posts on forums to advance in their class but I guess that's a personal query.
Storyline posts are there to force people to think about how their character is RPed as prestige. Without it, you could just have people who don't really know how to RP their character now, being a little...OP. For lack of a better word. The same could be done on server, but would require a GM to be active at the time. I believe it was Wuvvums herself who based the forum storyline on IC interaction. A great way to do things.
It also helps the GM team to keep you in line with what the Prestige class is all about, and if you're going about it the wrong way. If you are, at least it can be addressed before it goes server-side.
Just some thoughts on that, Vrahn. ^^
Alllsooooo... I like the idea of the recently deceased Prestige system, however it has caused some issues, obviously. Personally, I think an application for a prestige class should be created on the forums with a poll that lasts for, say, a week or two? Based on that response the go-ahead is given. A section for those Prestige Class CVs - for a more common representation - would be made on the forums, for easy viewing and access. Just an idea that came out for no reason =/
So. The daddy of the late Prestige system...I liked it. You saw Prestige-classes occasionally, but most of the time everything was a level playing field. I agree that it was difficult to acquire a prestige title however, and by the time the process was going, the desire to attain that title was gone, or perhaps the character was dead. Fun in the sun[ny beaches of Tanaris].
I have an idea.
What if, each prestige application was first sent to a GM, then posted anonymously on a specific board for prestige applications. Then, people could vote on if they think the prestige is a good addition to the community or a bad one, and why. Assuming the GM approves of their reasonings, the votes could be tallied up, and the prestige could be accepted to start progression, or denied/told to rework it. This allows the community to decide on what makes it in and what doesnt in a fair way, without it simply being a case of who can get the most friends to vouch for them.
Just an idea, throwing it out there off the top of my head.
I agree with what I believe Grakor was saying. Prestiges aren't applicable with the way we RP. For Prestige to make sense we would have to have a set standard of rules and other stats to have something to be prestige over. Now they are simply glorified classes that demand for the most part minute roll bonuses that hardly really show how powerful or not these characters are. They can still be beaten in a trust fight. If the player is open minded enough to see their chars weaknesses.
I think everyone wants a snowflake or a unique character who is still intriguing to them. I don't think prestiges are necessary but should some how be available because they are classes available in the world of warcraft. We clearly cant treat them as base classes because then people would have demon hunters running a muck. I'd have one. You might too, hell you might have two. I might.
But to keep on topic as far as why the systems don't work. Probably because they aren't needed. I'm not sure how the RPG table top works on wow. But to my knowledge you have to max out a regular char, before ascending to prestige in other RPGs. The idea or concept doesn't transfer well to CoTH. Because I can roll a level one human and he could damn near be a bad ass war veteran who is so trained it's painfully unrealistic. Or I could go through all the aforementioned prestige stuff and make a tier 2 or 3 Prestige char that is so trained and powerful its painfully unrealstic.
I don't think there should be prestige classes. Only Special profiles. You want to be a demon hunter. Put on a special profile. If you have a char thats a level 80 warrior and you want them to be a steam warrior. Write up a special profile, put your chars name [leveled] and fill it out, and in the history explain his training and motivation for acquiring this title. And changes ( if any ) said character went through between the last profile and this one.
I don't think prestiges are a bad thing, I like them. It submerges us into the lore more, when Jidaeo was fighting with two Demon Hunters and a fel sworn that was extremely awesome. Marianna Bisen is one of the coolest chars on the sever. But the GM's shouldn't have all this work to do for free. They should be able to RP like us and help our storylines or their own progress using the things they have access too. To moderate and guide our RP in the the greatness that it has. Not slaving over a hot laptop/desktop checking on our profiles, special profiles, prestiges, making new places. Just for us to say you took too long to check my profile, special profile or my prestige request. And say we need another custom area because the custom areas you guy all made are getting old. I didn't mean to go off topic. I just think there are a lot of factors on why the system didn't work. And probably wont return.
I am not sure if I'd like to see special profiles being the alternative. And it's not because of the attitude that people should have to work for the class, but more because I do find that having training and a story line can help encourage a way to more deeply think out what you want your character to do, how they'll take the course, and how this is affecting them and their day-to-day life.
I also think that perhaps training and how much training is needed should be up to the player within reason. If we feel we've done enough training then we can transition out of it with the story line and all. Either way I am looking forward to a system that incorporates training because the IC posts are constructive and feel good to write.
That's just me personally. We could also rp our training out and use elephant to record it.
Well I mean as far as if we say there are at least 100 players active, and only ten GM's. I bet at least 60 - 80 would like a prestige. GM's included. For each individual to write training which sometimes spans over two pages its a lot of work for one person or a staff to read. You could write training in a special profile application that would be the point. But another reason the system was flawed was because everyone was writing so much, and then the GM's had to read it, comprehend it, make sure that it was abiding by the lore, probably discuss it with others then pass it. And thats just -one- having to read every ones profile and storyline has to be time consuming and it slows down the process for everyone else.
And it still doesn't touch on the fact that the concept of a prestige class doesn't transfer well over into the way we RP here. But I hope something gets put in place, but due to the GM's reactions everytime we talk about bringing it back, they don't seem so thrilled. It's a lot of work for them, more than they should really have to do. IMO
Actually I could see special profiles for some prestiges now that you mention it. Well, actually, just one that I know of. And that's mostly cause of time-span. Like how would you train all those years before a dragon decides to even acknowledge you? That one might be tough.
Perhaps it could be a case-by-case basis but like you said it would end up being work for GMs. Right now I think the GMs can figure out what's best for them in a system, so I don't feel like making suggestions when I don't know what they have to go through.
ThePharaoh Wrote:Now they are simply glorified classes that demand for the most part minute roll bonuses that hardly really show how powerful or not these characters are. They can still be beaten in a trust fight. If the player is open minded enough to see their chars weaknesses.
Roll bonuses are annoying, and are somewhat unfair. If you think about it, a prestige class that had only recently become, say, a Felsworn, would have a hell of a hard time fighting a Kal'dorei that is millennia old and is supremely powerful, and yet they don't. Now, I could rant on and on about how the roll system doesn't provide for realistic fighting, but that just won't do.
I only wish that instead of roll systems we can trust people to think with common sense and react accordingly. This makes for better and more realistic RP than we could ever ask for.
Also, in my opinion (and remember, you're reading the lore deficient nub's words here, so that may not count for much), training for prestiges still should happen. That's not just because i'm already typing up posts in Word... Honest... It's just you should explain at least HOW your power came about. And personally I have a lot of fun typing up the storylines, inventing reasons, having dramatic gasp moments. This is just me, but the prestiges don't just note your ascension, they also give insight on the character in general and how such effects will change them and make them better, or worse.
Reese777 Wrote:[If you think about it, a prestige class that had only recently become, say, a Felsworn, would have a hell of a hard time fighting a Kal'dorei that is millennia old and is supremely powerful, and yet they don't.
I don't plan on sticking around in this thread, but I do want to say this: Age doesn't define power.