Conquest of the Horde

Greetings, Cothites. After seeing lots of back-and-forth about prestiges, prestige systems, etc., and realizing that we're still trying to build a reasonable generalization about what each class's abilities are, I've realized something.

As far as prestiges go, the d20 model is best. Why? Because it's been beautifully thought-out. Every prestige class is given specific skills with specific limitations. That means no conflict over whether it would be reasonable for a prestiged character to do X or Y action. Besides, the concepts of prestiges themselves came from the RPG. To avoid using the most definitive, accurate sources we have on those classes doesn't make sense.

I've also noticed something interesting: very few of those abilities are combat-oriented. And yet, they're very desirable and useful towards players. What better way to keep people from fretting over battle prowess when it's the other skills you get along with it which are the awesome part?

I'll give you an illustrated case in point by comparing the d20 version of abilities with the CotH entry on one prestige class. Assassin's good.


CotH version:

d20 Version

I admit freely that this seems like a little much. However, other prestige classes have similarly powerful and interesting noncombat bonuses. Did you know that Elven Rangers can speak to animals and vegetation, and summon creatures to help them? How about Necromancers, who can summon a carrion beetle into people to eat them on command, or drain their energy to make them faint? How about Wardens, who can teleport short distances and walk on ceilings and walls? The point is, using the d20 would make things far more interesting without combat. It would also be truer to the Warcraftiverse in general: Blizzard went into more depth in the RPG than it did in WoW. You can bet that there are still NPCs who are prestige classes in WoW, and who have those same canon abilities. The difference is that they don't get explicit mentions.

It would require players to check with the people they're playing with before performing any more powerful spells... but the same rules for rp will always apply, whether you have a prestige or not. If someone's uncomfortable with you using a more controversial ability, then don't use it with them.

There's also the matter of modifications to the wiki to add details on abilities, but I know several people with access to the RPG books who would enjoy helping. As long as the information's available on our wiki for people to read.

This isn't so much a 'let's change things immediately, our system is wrong' post. It's just a suggestion, because I'd like to get other players' and GM's opinions on it. I won't feel bad if people don't like it. So, thoughts?

(Sorry if I'm ineloquent. I'm rather sleepy at the moment.)

I thought there was a reason we were trying to separste ourselves from the D20, although it escapes me at the moment. Anyways, I see your point here, and raise you one compliment. Prestiges should be about the non-combat ability, not the combat ones. And since these abilities come from D20, as well as the idea of prestiges, I don't see how we can separate ourselves from the D20 easily.

I love you for posting this, because I had alot of trouble figuring out what Coriv (my prestige assassin character) could, and could not do. I really want it clarified, because role-playing an assassin is tough, if you have no idea of it's capabilities. Everybody can put poison in someone's beverage, or twist a knife in their neck - what makes the difference between the class and the proffession then?

I support moving towards the d20 books, instead of away from them, and hereby give props to the people that use them.(That includes you, Aroes.) From Lore-background on spells, abilities, classes, and races, to actual spellbooks, monsters/enemies to fight in PvE, to technology available in the Warcraft Universe, they are the -best- source of Canon/Lore you'll ever come across.

Sure, there are some things that are ungodly levels of OP like Wish and Miracle, but no one in their right minds would use those, just like no Fire Mage burns someone's brain in their head, or incinerates their heart while they're still alive, just like no Frost Mage simply freezes a person's blood in a small blood vessel on their brain. People can be trusted not to do that at the snap of a finger without consent.

People that have proper Lore-Knowledge are more trustworthy than those that go only by what they see in WoW, as far as handling skills, abilities, and general RP situations is concerned. They find it easier to see from an In-Universe and In-Character Point of View than those who have only seen interfaces.

Moving on. Prestige Classes have no written guidelines for spells and abilities anywhere outside the RPG books. Do you see those descriptions on WoWWiki? Know where they're copy-pasted from? The RPG Books.
You're literally saying 'Let's move closer towards the RPG books and further away from the RPG books' when you say 'Closer to WoWWiki and farther from the Books.'

Someone once said 'We're not playing World of Warcraft with a mere emphasis on Roleplay. We do not kill gods in troops of ten or twenty-five. We do not witness the Lich King dying again and again. We are playing the Warcraft Role-Playing Game using World of Warcraft as a medium only. That's what we do here. Roleplaying, and thankfully staying in-universe.' And it just rang true.

Put a Night Elf and a Human in the same room that lacks windows and a light-source. The RPG says the Night Elf will see in the dark, as Night Elves are Nocturnal creatures, and in fact see better at night than during the day, whilst the Human will see pitch-black. WoW says both will see the same, as that is how the game presents the environment. Don't you find that a little silly?

So, yeah.

(02-20-2011, 10:14 PM)muhaha8 Wrote: [ -> ]I thought there was a reason we were trying to separste ourselves from the D20, although it escapes me at the moment. Anyways, I see your point here, and raise you one compliment. Prestiges should be about the non-combat ability, not the combat ones. And since these abilities come from D20, as well as the idea of prestiges, I don't see how we can separate ourselves from the D20 easily.

Having not read anything else in this thread...

...I will note that the principal reason for the full banishment of the d20 books as a source is its declaration as friendly non-canon fan fiction.

This is not mentioning the longstanding difficulties of balancing capabilities contrived from that d20 in a way that makes sense within the context of those MMORPG derived competencies yet espoused by our fair roleplaying community.

Skimming Etmosril's post...

(02-20-2011, 09:53 PM)Etmosril Wrote: [ -> ]CotH version:

Spoiler:

Only the darkest and most ruthless rogues take the path of the assassin. The training is steeped in mystery and initiation available only from the invitation of a Master. It is rumored they choose their candidates from the Spymasters and Infiltrators they deem worthy. To even be approached by an assassin trainer one must have completed the third level either Spymaster or Infiltrator training. They must also demonstrate a cold, calculating, amoral approach to their work.

This is not the path of the psychopath. It is not the path of the crazy or insane. It is the path of the sociopath -- the intelligent and skilled killer.

...I don't mean to be hostile when I ask close attention paid to a marked detail.

This class' description is, besides from phenomenally outdated along with the effective rest of the "prestiges" on the wiki, wholly derived from the d20. It makes reference to expressly pen and paper prestige/variant classes, exempli gratia Spymaster or Infiltrator. I wouldn't be surprised if it honestly derived from the very page about assassins.

(02-20-2011, 09:53 PM)Etmosril Wrote: [ -> ]Greetings, Cothites. After seeing lots of back-and-forth about prestiges, prestige systems, etc., and realizing that we're still trying to build a reasonable generalization about what each class's abilities are...

The premise of the latest such system in the works is laying out what each class actually does (though players are still free to submit their own ideas for faculty review, most of the established "prestige" classes are to see a dossier).

Leafing through Flammos' post...

...I agree almost completely with the player, beyond my drowsy reiterative mumblings about the WoWRPG being declared defunct by the creative directors of Blizzard and CotH's standing stance to adhere to Blizzard's vision of lore.

Though I will chance the inescapably sardonic observation that there aren't any blindingly dark areas in Warcraft, and that one does not actually look through the eyes of their character when playing the game.



EDIT: ...I will also post a rather remarkably relevant (but doubtlessly needless) link to the sister-thread that is the regard of whether to uplift the d20's lore books to server canon status.

While it discusses a wholly different application of these controversial resources, it's still cornerstoned with the very same.

While the d20 is ultimately a great tool to get to know the Warcraft lore better, it -has- just kinda been declared as 'fan fiction' (well informed fan fiction) by Blizzard. This does little to detract from its value, I merely make a point. A pointless point.

I think the thing is that the d20 is just meant for a radically different sort of playing field than CotH, at least for player characters. It's great and dandy to use it as a reference for things and all. Most of it's likely canonical, I doubt Blizzard will retcon many things in the d20 besides some of the more obvious things like the Daughters of the Forge (or something like that).

Back to the point I was trying to get to. We're not a d20 setting. If we were, god, that would be excellent. But there's no real way to -measure- levels on CotH. It's not like we can say 'Oh, I'm a level 17 warrior while you're only a level 2' because everyone sits at the same level. The same way with prestiges. How do we determine one is a 'level 4 Assassin' while the other is only a level 2, both having finished their training? It's a situation of 'you either have it all, or you don't have it all. Pick out the bits that don't fit your character'.

Another thing is with prestiges on CotH is that they're not to be so... radically powerful compared to normal ones. Stronger, yes. But not 'I am now a prestige, I can do six backflips with a casual leap into the air'. With the d20 (and by extension DnD 3rd edition) it's almost necessary to become a prestige in order to become a stronger character.

What I believe is meant when we say 'Let's move away from the d20' is 'Let's move away from our RP being determined by stats'.

Funny, I always assumed I knew a good deal of WoW's lore from reading around the WoWwiki, reading most of the published books, learning things from in game. Seems my knowledge isn't proper though. I'm surprised I don't find understanding the WoW universe so hard, having not touched or looked at a single page of these books.

I'm sorry if this post isn't very coherent. Just trying to help out a bit.

(Also, I sort of want to merge this thread with the other one. Thoughts?)

(07-01-2011, 04:42 AM)Xigo Wrote: [ -> ](Also, I sort of want to merge this thread with the other one. Thoughts?)

(07-01-2011, 04:20 AM)LostStranger Wrote: [ -> ]While it discusses a wholly different application of these controversial resources, it's still cornerstoned with the very same.

Except with converse phrasing in that while it's cornerstoned with the same resources, it discusses a wholly different application of them.

The thing is, though, we don't need to determine our 'levels'. It's the -other- lore we want to keep. There's so much knowledge in them it'd be insane to ignore it, even if Blizzard says that it isn't canon. I'm sure that some of it isn't, but there is, as the other thread says,

(06-30-2011, 10:41 PM)Beltharean Wrote: [ -> ]a massive amount of information on Warcraft lore and the way things work. We base the entire prestige system on these books, as well as the current addition of the Runemaster and Necromancer classes and the abilities that we're given with them. More important than that in my mind however, is the background, the history that comes with the books. I based the entirety (nearly) of an almost sixty page guide on the tauren on the RPG books, filled to the brim with gathered knowledge on customs, history, stories, tradition, and the like. On Tauren alone. On the old forums it was one of the most 'liked' topics on the site with almost thirty. I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, the exact opposite really, I'm trying to show just how important the RPG books and their information really are.

How would we have any information on the specifics of the orcish, darnassian, zandali, and dwarvish languages we use ICly without the RPG books? Or the specifics behind each individual nook and cranny of each and ever zone in the entire world of warcraft without the books? Once again going back to history, we would never know about things such as the Blood River War in ancient Orcish history that destroyed the Dark Scar clan, nor that the Dragonmaw clan has relations with the Torchbelcher tribe's warriors and magi in Loch Modan to fight the dwarves there.

I dun been quoted!

(07-01-2011, 06:11 AM)Aphetoros Wrote: [ -> ]The thing is, though, we don't need to determine our 'levels'. It's the -other- lore we want to keep. There's so much knowledge in them it'd be insane to ignore it, even if Blizzard says that it isn't canon.

I think there seems to be some miscommunication on the way we're handling the d20 books now. By no means are we just disregarding them entirely- as it was said in this thread, that's a lot of stuff to just ignore. What we're doing now is being selective with the lore we want to see from the d20, and the lore we want to be put into CotH.

As in 'this prestige title should have x spell, but not y.' or 'x prestige should exist, but y should not'. We of course take inspiration from classes from the d20, because for quite a few that's the only real indication of them that we get-- but we're trying to avoid taking everything and thus ending up with bizarre skillsets and classes.

Granted, as was mentioned above, the stuff we don't put in may be something people want, and that's alright. There's a reason we're being open with the prestige skillsets, and that's because no matter what set of abilities we lay out it is likely going to be missing something.


Whether that's missing the ability for a cool rogue attack or the ability to turn invisible and spit bees into your enemies hair is the reason we're going to be evaluating all of the suggestions and not just saying 'look at this and get it from there', though.

Derp.