Conquest of the Horde

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This is a subject that's been brought to my attention, and something I'll be putting forth for public discussion. Normally I would post something like this on the GM forums, but as this rather directly affects the players and I feel they should have at least the opportunity to voice their opinions.

There has been concern expressed, several times, about GMs "spying" on players by being GM invis around them and watching them RP. The rules are quite clear on how this pertains to players themselves, as they cannot watch an RP OOCly unless they have express permission from those acting the scene. The rule, however, is understandably trickier when dealing with GMs, for three reasons:

1. We may need to watch RP in order to detect rule breaks.
2. It is best, for puppeteering mobs to be invisible and otherwise uninvolved in the RP in question.
3. We are, for all intents and purposes, completely invisible, and thus not as disruptive to RP around us as someone who is actually visibly present in body.

As some might remember me mentioning, I was once an immortal/GM on a MUD as well, where I had similar powers there that I do here. Not being the head honcho there, I learned what was and was not acceptable in that medium, and I have often carried what I learned there to here. In this case, there are some cases where I will watch RP, and these are the standards I typically expect from the GMs below me (though not something I have closely policed as of yet.)

1. If the RP in question is in a highly public place (towns, major cities, or the tavern, for instance) then watching is fine, as the people involved are under public scrutiny anyway. Often I won't let people know that I'm present in this case, as it's unnecessary.

2. If someone is suspected to be breaking rules, or when someone is requested we come to observe someone who they claim is breaking rules. Obviously, we do not make our presence known in this case either, except possibly to the person who requested we show up.

3. If a pair or small group is outside of public view, I usually will avoid sticking around. If I do watch an RP in this case, it is usually with people I know decently well, and I try to make my presence known, usually through whispers.

Now, obviously situations vary and what is and is not allowable is dependent on circumstance. It's a touchy subject because I know on one hand the idea that the "ever-present Admins" could be watching at any moment is a bit unsettling, but I also know that to a degree some observation is either necessary, or completely not harmful.

I want to hear people's opinions.
I agree with this in every way, shape, and form. Of course conduct has to be monitored, but if a Game Master would just like to observe a roleplay- they need just ask. Some people will be delighted to let them watch, while others- understandably- would prefer to be left alone.

I support this thread, a lot. :D
Personal admitance: I -hate- it when I'm invis, and I miss-type something, and it shows up, and people automatically start saying I'm spying. Usually, and I'm not saying this is the case, but the first person to yell "spy" is someone doing something that they shouldn't, or they don't -know- if they should be doing what they ARE doing, and have never asked.
Not saying you are, Resin, but to assume that someone is trying to hide something because they don't like being watched is quite incorrect. Some people just don't want to feel like they have an audience and that they have to perform to meet someone else's standards, which is often the case with people who don't want people spectating.
Heh, I see where your coming from. However, it's something that...well. Looks a bit conspicuous.

Not to mention...a lot of times people act as if having a GM ruins their experience. I mean...if a GM sees that your having a fight outside of a bar, and they puppet something to break it up, don't go off on them and say something like they are ruining roleplay. I mean, to -us- puppeting is roleplay. Sometimes, beleive it or not, I like RPing (by puppeting) a guard that comes in to break up shenanigans.

So yeah, again, I will admit, the whole "your spying" thing can tick me off more often than not. RP with invitation never happens to a GM!
Oh no no no! Don't get me wrong, and Grakor touched base on this as well- if they're fighting outside a bar with guards around, that's no so much as a private roleplay. But if they're taking a scenic stroll out in Winterspring, that would be slightly more spying. And yes, it's rude of people to automatically assume that the Game Masters are spying when they could just be bored and want to see what other players are doing, possibly even help out by puppeting. I always like it when I'm in the Drudaen RPing with the barmaid and suddenly she comes to life and speaks back. Good times.
I have to say, “spying” entails that the person/persons being watched have something to hide. In which case, I'm all for “spying.” However, what I think the GM's are doing here is a form of accountability for themselves and all the players. Players ought to assume that someone is watching all the time, they ought to be always on their best behavior (or their worst, considering their character) no matter who is or who is not watching.

Anyways, don't think of it as spying, think of it as quality control. Heh.
I don't mind GM's watching my RP, in a public area, or outside.

If a GM can be trusted with commands, the mute button, the boot, and the almighty hammer, they can be trusted with a small dealing with watching someone, announced or unannounced.
Quote:If a GM can be trusted with commands, the mute button, the boot, and the almighty hammer, they can be trusted with a small dealing with watching someone, announced or unannounced.

I agree. To be honest I don't really care if players OOC-watch my sessions without permission either, it's not really a big deal to me. For someone to start talking about spying and how they feel mistreated they would either have to be insecure about their roleplaying (and come on, that's so unnecessary), or they know they're doing something they're not supposed to be doing.
I don't mind either as long as I can't see/hear the OOCer (like them jumping around and dancing right in the middle of the RP) or the watching GM. I'm particular about ambiance breaking.

Contributing to the ambiance without actually being there IC is also perfectly fine. (Puppeting)
Dahso Wrote:I don't mind GM's watching my RP, in a public area, or outside.

If a GM can be trusted with commands, the mute button, the boot, and the almighty hammer, they can be trusted with a small dealing with watching someone, announced or unannounced.

I think it's more of a respect issue, rather than a trust one. Sure, a GM can metagame all sorts of crap with what they see while invis...but you don't need GM invis to be able to do that. Also, we obviously try to ensure that those we promote to GMs can at least be trusted that much (there's a reason we don't give Entry/Trial GMs the ability to kick or ban.)

I'm sure there are many that genuinely do not care if a GM is watching their RPs. There are, however, some honest players that do mind simply because they don't like that "I'm being watched" feeling.

Though, I will say that it's a good idea to always assume that you are either being watched, or will be walked in on at any moment. I will occasionally appear to people to see where they are, even if I don't linger. If you're doing something that is private and/or unsuitable for public posting (such as ERP) you should be taking it to Party anyway.
Other than that mentioned before, could it be that a GM may be entrusted with watching an RP with the intention of issuing vouches?

It might speed up vouch-giving where it is deserved, especially if two non-grunts are roleplaying together and making an effort to follow the rules/guidelines.

Maybe even add another GM position, only offering the .appear and .invis commands, for it to work faster/ more widely (even sort of "stalk" a person to monitor their RPing, even if they know it or not)
GMs are peeping toms :o

Just kidding

I agree with this, though. I mean, I was suspecting being watched the whole time I've been on the server already.
In all fairness, if someone's doing, uh, "private" in a SUPER low traffic area, wouldn't it be a stretch to punish them if a GM decided to pop in on them if they're in a place like, say, Blade's Edge Mountains where it's not a happenin' social hotspot and kind of hard to access, and they're getting freaky right in /say and /em?

I always felt it could be either or. Either take it to party/tells OR go somewhere out of the way.
Every so often I will vouch, however, there are many grunts that can vouch as well. Most of the time, if I'm invisible in an area, I'm doing something. So, ya know, if your talking about making vouching our responsibility and take it away from grunts...that will slow down the process, significantly.

Edit @ Olly: Trust me, others will find you. /sigh
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