10-29-2011, 02:16 PM
(10-29-2011, 01:20 PM)Xigo Wrote: [ -> ]... Am I going to end up locking my own thread?
Personally, I'd rather you didn't; minor breaches of civility aside, I find this exchange fascinating.
(10-29-2011, 01:20 PM)Xigo Wrote: [ -> ]... Am I going to end up locking my own thread?
(10-29-2011, 02:14 PM)Aphetoros Wrote: [ -> ]We have little example of NPC interation, true, but we have their history, their architecture, their clothes, their current battles...(10-29-2011, 12:16 PM)Rigley Wrote: [ -> ]The issue is when -most- characters fit outside the norm that things become strange, and at that point it begins to detract from people who wish to RP characters within the norm.
Furthermore, playing within the norm is -not- playing 'racist person X'. There's a difference between a normal viewpoint and a racist one. There's a difference between being hesitant to associate with orcs and hating them and backtalking them when possible. Hell, playing a -racist- character could very well be called outside the norm, since most simply have reservations to other races and not outright hostility. To say that a character within the norm is just a racist jerk is kinda insulting, to be honest, and as a person who has played a traditional Night Elf I can say that RP isn't impossible. If anything it does make it more interesting, it just depends on the crowd you're around.
But what is the norm? Do we know the norm? not really. It's hard to know the norm when you haven't sat back and observed the way people act. I mean, if we could sit down on a park bench in Silvermoon and watch thousands of different elves and then draft of some kind of 'norm' then we could say outside the norm. But we can't. We can't watch NPCs act and interact, unless blizzard decides to make a movie, so there's no official norm. Without an official norm, a norm is made by the people RPing, then, isn't it? Because as our characters, if most of them are 'outside the norm', then the norm isn't the norm, and being outside the norm would be considered norm.
Hipster complex.
Quote:We have little example of NPC interation, true, but we have their history, their architecture, their clothes, their current battles...
I think demanding for "Norms" and "Arcetypes" is a bit misworded- what we really need from peoples' characters, no matter where they are now in life, are going to be influenced by the history that has been quite plainly laid out to us by Blizzard.
Without the assumptions, fears, and traumas along with the magic and wonders of Azeroth affecting our characters, there really is no point to bother Roleplaying on a WoW server.
If someone can manage, say, a Belf who likes to get absolutely smashed on the weekends, then I'd say more power too them, as long as they actually acknowledge that their character is a part of the Warcraft universe.
If everyone respects and makes good use of the lore, good "normal" Belves (or characters of any race) will be a matter of course.
(10-29-2011, 02:14 PM)Aphetoros Wrote: [ -> ]But what is the norm? Do we know the norm? not really. It's hard to know the norm when you haven't sat back and observed the way people act. I mean, if we could sit down on a park bench in Silvermoon and watch thousands of different elves and then draft of some kind of 'norm' then we could say outside the norm. But we can't. We can't watch NPCs act and interact, unless blizzard decides to make a movie, so there's no official norm. Without an official norm, a norm is made by the people RPing, then, isn't it? Because as our characters, if most of them are 'outside the norm', then the norm isn't the norm, and being outside the norm would be considered norm.
Hipster complex.
(10-29-2011, 03:12 PM)Rigley Wrote: [ -> ](10-29-2011, 02:14 PM)Aphetoros Wrote: [ -> ]But what is the norm? Do we know the norm? not really. It's hard to know the norm when you haven't sat back and observed the way people act. I mean, if we could sit down on a park bench in Silvermoon and watch thousands of different elves and then draft of some kind of 'norm' then we could say outside the norm. But we can't. We can't watch NPCs act and interact, unless blizzard decides to make a movie, so there's no official norm. Without an official norm, a norm is made by the people RPing, then, isn't it? Because as our characters, if most of them are 'outside the norm', then the norm isn't the norm, and being outside the norm would be considered norm.
Hipster complex.
I'm pretty sure that this is common knowledge, but as I prefer not to kick myself in the teeth by going against my own advice...
The 'norm' I'm talking about is what the race in general is characterized as, and there is no denying that that doesn't exist. Blood Elves are typically cultured and prefer style with their substance. Orcs are typically rugged and adhere to a code of honor. Gnomes typically have an inclination towards engineering and general oddities, and have a curious nature.
By this I mean that there are just some aspects of a race which generally can be assumed upon sight of a member of that group. While by no means do I mean to say that we should all act the same if we're dwarves or orcs or tauren, there are certain mannerisms that should be typically present in a member of that race. And as always, there WILL be deviations, but those deviations should not constitute the majority of those played characters or else it will begin to suck you out of the setting.
So there is a 'norm', or at least by the way I intended to say it. I think that was easily assumed, but if it wasn't then very well, there's my explanation. Call it what you want; archetype, norm, so on-- I think I've been pretty clear as to what I mean when I speak about this though.
(10-29-2011, 09:47 PM)Aphetoros Wrote: [ -> ]Moral: Before you roll a character, look at the race.Take the society and use it to help sculpt its persona. Believe it or not, our societies have helped carve you too.Such a process is critical to creating a successful character. This is a very good point, and one that I can't help but wonder about how it could be enforced. Even though a clear understanding of a race is required for a character approval, plenty of people play without going through the process of getting a character approved, myself included.
So yeah. You're not a human, even if you're roleplaying a human. You're a WoW human. Look at your race, look at their social stigmas and taboos, look at their beliefs and then look at your character. Does your character still make sense? Do they have a reason to be different, if they are? If not, try to find one. Everything will become more meaningful.
Quote:On Earth, each country and nation has different culture, and each culture has sub-sects on sub-sects on sub-sects. Serial killers, goths, emotionals, artists, roleplayers, writers, animal-lovers, animal-haters, asexuals, homosexuals, heterosexuals, wife-beaters, husband-beaters, child-beaters, the Jewish, the Catholics, protestants, pagans, Christians, Buddhists, Daoists, Quakers, and more. That's in one race.
(10-30-2011, 10:56 AM)Wuvvums Wrote: [ -> ]But wuvvums, they are a culture even if it isn't a good one. I'll quote Le Dictionary on Culture, "the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture."Quote:On Earth, each country and nation has different culture, and each culture has sub-sects on sub-sects on sub-sects. Serial killers, goths, emotionals, artists, roleplayers, writers, animal-lovers, animal-haters, asexuals, homosexuals, heterosexuals, wife-beaters, husband-beaters, child-beaters, the Jewish, the Catholics, protestants, pagans, Christians, Buddhists, Daoists, Quakers, and more. That's in one race.
Are you talking about subsects or subcultures/countercultures? Because being a serial killer isn't a culture. Neither is being a perpetrator of domestic violence or child abuse. And asexuality, homosexuality, and heterosexuality are orientations, not a culture.
Quote:And it almost seems to suggest that because humans come in huge varieties that culture is entirely irrelevant. Well it is. You can deviate from your culture some but when you deviate too much it comes with some repercussions. Take for example when you said that a person could be a child-beater. In most cultures we see children as precious and we want to take children from their parents if they are being abused. And serial killers; we usually condemn these too. These are the sort of things that you might do but know it is WRONG because of your culture. These are the things you would hide and keep behind closed doors.Don't take this offensively, but you must be pretty sheltered to believe that. I've taken some time to examine a lot of things, and outside of my pretty little suburb there's a grime-covered poverty and crime-laced hellhole. Shit happens. Every day schoolchildren get shot and killed in my city for reasons the news would be lucky to guess. Stories about people drowned by their parents because they had disabilities and didn't want their children to suffer, I found out one of my best friends used to live in Montana, but his mother whipped him for no explainable reason and didn't beat his sister. Sure, he got taken away and now lives with his dad in Chicago, but they live in a crummy, beaten-down condo because they can't afford much else, and he tries to find the little pleasure that he can in life, that being in his friends outside. There's much more evil than you think, and sadly it's probably hiding right in front of you.
Quote:Realize this. There's communities upon communities of people on the internet, forums and boards for child molesters to associate and talk with each other. Entire websites for murders to socialize and crime syndicates to organize. And what repercussions do they get? Do you think all of these people are caught? All of the victims saved in time? That's unrealistic.
Now imagine if you did follow the norm and you didn't beat children or you didn't kill people. But for some reason everyone thought you were wrong, or that you were somehow just being intolerant. Just all of a sudden you find a bunch of people who think child beating is A-OK and they talk about it, profess it, and they get NO repercussions for such blatant social deviancy. It just wouldn't be right, would it? You'd think SOMEONE would surely call out someone on that.
Quote:I think that's sort of what it's like part of the time. If you're going to have such radical views or a radical identity then you're probably going to keep it somewhat secret, or if you don't keep it a secret you're probably going to be hated by most folks. For some reason it's the people who try to emulate what is “right” who get this treatment instead.