Conquest of the Horde

It is a sickening feeling when the pin finally drops. Oh, yes, I’ve been told that gaining clarity is better than living in a fantasy world (Which totally none of us are doing at all right now) but realization is still a shock to any system.

And so it was a shock when I realized, tonight, that Argus Wake as it existed before the restart is not suitable for post-start revival.

But, you may say, “Haven’t we already created an Argus Wake guild?” And to that I say “Man…I know! Totally wishing realization came earlier.”

The argument against a revival of the pre-restart Argus Wake boils down to two points:
#1 – The evil culture of the server has shifted from obviously dark acts to more subtle forms of evil. Popular trends have changed.
#2 – Before the guild was run by a spry ego-maniacal demon WHO COULD FLY AND SHOOT FIRE. Now it’s run by a 47 year old housewife with a manchild and a female Rambo at her hip.

Before all the motives and means for spreading were clear. People respected a demonic Marianna and, because of her Fel addiction, her loyalty to the Legion was reasonable. The culture on the server was that evil shook up stagnant RP and that a good villain was one who could put his or her spurs to a storyling. But now? Now we are just left with questions and an ill-fitting skin.

Why would a 47 year old woman ally herself with a Legion? Why is she throwing her children into the middle of danger? Why is an organization dedicated towards global discord based around a radioactive bat and a graying hag? Why are we flying around with capes and monologues when everyone wants depth and storyline?

Argus Wake post restart, like my doodle of a pony when I was young, just doesn’t make sense.

So I have, after a discussion with Delta and Hiddengecko, decided to posit two suggestions. Argus Wake members, old and new, are welcome to weigh in. Non members are as well; after all, those who are outsiders today may just be mindless converts to the Glorious Cause tomorrow!

Action #1
Cut the Legion and Be a Family!

If trying to fit the skin of the old Argus Wake is proving too difficult, simply toss it out and make a new one.

The new focus of the guild would be on the inner workings of the Bisen family, a small-time noble house that, when their shady past is brought to light, is forced to expand its power or be swallowed up by the predators within their government. It is the fight of a family to secure safety for themselves and, in the process, lose themselves and their perspectives.

Marianna would take the roll as the group's patriarch, an unwilling leader who doubts her skills and abilities. In times of strife she relies on advisors and the mixed advice.

The Legion would remain in the family in the form of Sangreala, who would be an advisor and associate.

The group would, while never being as egotistical and obvious as it was in the past, retain the proactive approach of the old Argus Wake, preferring to create action instead of reacting to it.

Membership would be for the family and those loyal to it. Members will be from both factions.

Pros:

• Solves all our problems. Bam. It’s that easy. We create a guild that makes sense in relation to its leadership, is still fun and still evil.
  
• Keep up with trends. The key word is that we’ll be more subtle. People will appreciate that.
  
• Active. The guild will still be an active force and, instead of getting bogged down with intra-family fighting, will actually go out and stir up trouble in the world at large.
  
• Depths. The drama and fighting within such a close-knit group would create an increased depth and storyline that we didn’t enjoy in the last guild.
  

Cons:

• Un-original. This is the thing that pushes me away from the idea the most. Seriously, this has been done three times in the past, with a noble house already existing for good, evil and neutral.
  

Action #2
Re-tool and Re-fit

Argus Wake was good before. Why do something new when it wasn’t broken to begin with? Just trim things so that they’ll fit.

Make Marianna and her family deeply entrenched in Fel, with the idea of expanding their power base for security as only what they sell to others. Make them desire the Legion’s control in exchange for power, something the small family has yet to enjoy.

Push Marianna down the path of demon worship, morphing her eventually into a similar state as before restart.

Make their workings heavily entrenched in the Legion, with the organization creating an outer appearance of crime and debauchery to attract members/cover their intentions.

Pros:

• If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Argus Wake worked in the past and it can work in the future.
  
• Membership. A criminal organization that is recruiting people from both factions makes sense and will help drive recruitment.
  
• Events. Being a crime empire means that you won’t have to be subtle in how you run thing.
  
• True Evil. Ditch the shades of grey, you’ll be getting a ‘pure black’ organization that people can get behind hating.
  

Cons:

• Uncreative. We’ve done it before and, in the past, we learned from our mistakes. It’s lazy just to do something over again and not try to make it better.
  
• Egotism. The guild would once again be focused on the drives and motivations of one or two people, which some do not enjoy.
  
• Loss of depths. Pure evil may be fun, but we lose the moral ambiguity and sense of story that the other idea offered.
  
• Many Enemies. Saying that we’d be attracting a lot of enemies with this type of guild is a gross under-statement.
  

Personally I don't see too much what is wrong with the affably evil Argus Wake. Are deep, three dimensional villains good? Yes they are. But are two dimensional ones any less? No, not really. It's good to have the monocles and capes. Most villains in Warcraft aren't exactly what I'd call deep or compelling anyway, and the ones that are tend to just be heroes who went bad from an overload of MacGuffin evil or whatever.

As for Marianna being a 47 year old hag who endangers her children, there's possibilities for justifications of that. Sure, she's not a flying demon with laser eyes, but there are other possibilities. Maybe she thinks the Legion brings order through destruction, or that the world sucks hard enough it needs to be purged, or whatever. Take some cliche-cool ideas and run crazy with them, and have fun while doing it. Personally, a little bit of both your ideas appeals to me the most: make your evil more three-dimensional, but ultimately black and white. Marianna thinks she's doing what's worthwhile, but it ultimately is just her being crazy/evil/Count Dracula waiting for a Belmont to fight.


... actually, I like my Dracula analogy. See if you can go somewhere with that.

Just my two cent.

Most of my points have already been expressed here, but I did have a little more to add in regard to Action #1 (not by accident being the option I lean towards).

Quote:Un-original. This is the thing that pushes me away from the idea the most. Seriously, this has been done three times in the past, with a noble house already existing for good, evil and neutral.

You need only look at how many love songs exist, and how many books follow the formulaic boy-meets-girl or unlikely-party-go-on-adventure structure to realise that it's less the basic concept and more where you choose to take it. On top of that, this is a sign of our age and the jade-tinted haze that joins it. With the recent influx of fresh meat from the summer who are finding their own places in the server, there's a chance to give them an experience they didn't have the opportunity to indulge in before. Same song, different verse, as it were.

It can be desperately difficult to get behind the glory of Sargeras for a reason that's not fear, forced subservience, or delusional admiration. With that said, Marianna and the Legion go together like bread and butter on a delicious fel sandwich. If people are willing to rely on the suspension of disbelief to some extent, it's very doable and would make for a damn good story.

What it boils down to (from my perspective) is whether the focus ought to be on character development and interaction with intrigue woven in as a catalyst, or sizeable events, sprinkled with meaningful roleplay here and there stemming as a direct result of what's happening.

I like both, but with motives and the server's current climate taken into consideration, the first option's the one I'd go with.

I, personally, am for Option One. I am so for Option One, that if you are willing to allow any aid on the "good" side of the scale, I would be honored to accept.

...Promise I won't have a meltdown like last time.

(10-31-2011, 11:42 PM)CappnRob Wrote: [ -> ]Personally I don't see too much what is wrong with the affably evil Argus Wake. Are deep, three dimensional villains good? Yes they are. But are two dimensional ones any less? No, not really. It's good to have the monocles and capes. Most villains in Warcraft aren't exactly what I'd call deep or compelling anyway, and the ones that are tend to just be heroes who went bad from an overload of MacGuffin evil or whatever.

See, after reading through my own piece I grew rather fond of the idea of merging the two. We'd go heavily with number one, of cours,e but still draw a lot from two.

Also, I <3 Cartoon Villainy.

(10-31-2011, 11:48 PM)Delta Wrote: [ -> ]With that said, Marianna and the Legion go together like bread and butter on a delicious fel sandwich. If people are willing to rely on the suspension of disbelief to some extent, it's very doable and would make for a damn good story.

The only problem to this is that the new Marianna is almost nothing like her old one. She's less egotistical, less overt and less manipulative. She flirted with Fel as only a way to get stronger, and really has no thoughts on the Legion at the moment.

(10-31-2011, 11:42 PM)CappnRob Wrote: [ -> ]Personally I don't see too much what is wrong with the affably evil Argus Wake. Are deep, three dimensional villains good? Yes they are. But are two dimensional ones any less?

Not to seem rude or contradictory (and with all due respect, ect.) but yes, they are. A flat character is a bad thing by its very nature, unless meant as simply a background piece to emphasize the depth of more important ones--and even then, I'd argue that it's a clumsy tool.

I prefer Marianna as a character rather than Marianna as a plot device.

(11-01-2011, 12:08 AM)Rosencrat Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-31-2011, 11:48 PM)Delta Wrote: [ -> ]With that said, Marianna and the Legion go together like bread and butter on a delicious fel sandwich. If people are willing to rely on the suspension of disbelief to some extent, it's very doable and would make for a damn good story.

The only problem to this is that the new Marianna is almost nothing like her old one. She's less egotistical, less overt and less manipulative. She flirted with Fel as only a way to get stronger, and really has no thoughts on the Legion at the moment.

I'm inclined to take Marianna's side here.
(Sorry, Delta!)
The reasons for this are twofold: First, as Rosencrat says, the old Marianna doesn't quite fit the new, and turned to fel simply for power. In her current political position, arcane is far better as it has a great deal more social utility and carries none (or very little) of the damning stigma of fel.

As a second note, I find "evil" characters by their very natures to be often poorly-characterized. One ought not to step out with the aspiration of making a character with doing bad things as their intended purpose. An antagonist to the heroes is one thing, and a morally bankrupt one just as legitimate, but there must be rhyme and reason to their actions. A font of evil deeds has little.

The Cut Lex Luthor a Check trope comes to mind; evil masterminds are best left as misguided, greedy, or opportunistic masterminds. A truly competent individual--even a sociopath--will often strive to work within the social rules, bending or exploiting them rather than overtly breaking them.

As an addendum...

(10-31-2011, 11:48 PM)c0rzilla Wrote: [ -> ]I, personally, am for Option One. I am so for Option One, that if you are willing to allow any aid on the "good" side of the scale, I would be honored to accept.

This is another reason I really must firmly back Option One. If you play a neutral party (for instance, Penumbra before the restart) you have the quite outstanding opportunity of being able to RP with just about anyone. Alliances are forged, permanent and temporary; one skirts the boundaries of typical alignment politics and pursues their own goals. It's exhilarating to actually wonder about whose side to take and make hard decisions based on what must be done rather than simple right or wrong.

From an IC perspective, this is also generally the proper position to be taken by a house wishing to gain or regain their power: You don't make strong enemies, and you let the brutal simplicity of capitalism and the exchange of power be the judge and arbiter of your transactions with others.

I'm surprised, I may be misinterpreting but it appears as if you're trying to appease people, or follow the 'trends' of the server. What do -you- want to do? What was always interesting about your RP, or what I thought was interesting was how you drove it. If we all want Ninja pandas and you make a guild focusing all your time and creativity on it, it would be good, but it would be better if you wanted to make a ninja panda guild. You know what I mean? Because there are too many personalities to get a large running populace ( 10 - 25+) people to focus and agree on one idea. I wasn't in Argus wake, but I think it was successful for numerous reasons. You at one time at least, appeared to -really- enjoy playing Marianna, she could do awesome feats and was captivating. You drive RP, the same way I saw Valira with commoners party and the elf teacher with the face mask. I know it begins with an M but I get two names confused and don't want to use the wrong one with Aula Arcanum.

Even if you do get a popular vote, there's always going to be one person who doesn't like it, people who want to join or kill ( or both probably ) the guild adding that strain, + headache and people hating on you. At the end of the day, it should be something you're satisfied with. Some of the cons seem like deal breakers you would overlook if it made the idea or guild successful for the sake of RP and our enjoyment. If I'm wrong and these are two ideas you enjoy equally and your just simply torn between the two. I'd pick option 2. But I'd like to think if it was something you wanted to do there wouldn't be any other option.

I've always been the type, when presented with a choice of the this or that variety, to look toward the answer of both.

Without doubt, I'm beyond late for this touch of ideology to be anything other than redundant in terms of direction, but perhaps the thought might see meaning in terms of method.


Alterac as a nation has crumbled to dust, snow, and rubble. The nobility's holdings have been stripped skeletal. Crime is not so much a social deviance for Bisen's class of people as much as it is a necessity.

Even if the aristocracy is, nonetheless, historically composed of tremendous jerks.

(11-01-2011, 12:33 AM)hiddengecko Wrote: [ -> ]The reasons for this are twofold: First, as Rosencrat says, the old Marianna doesn't quite fit the new, and turned to fel simply for power. In her current political position, arcane is far better as it has a great deal more social utility and carries none (or very little) of the damning stigma of fel.

Fel has always been touted to me as the fast track when I question the staff on why a mage and warlock are treated as on par.

To this end do I wonder if Marianna will have the time to indulge her peers with "acceptable" behavior?

The Legion is not only a tempting avenue, it's knocking on her door and bringing a fresh box of cookies from Forge Camp: Bakery.

Quote:a female Rambo at her hip

I'm sorry, but I've always seen Grace as a female version of Han Solo, just a more cowboy version.

ANYWAYS, I'd be fine with either. Of course, the second one would involve some retconning with Grace if we'll do it, but of course, so will the first, the second will just take more.

However, I'm still up for the second more. Why? Because, even though the only character I got involved with the first Argus Wake was an absolute wimp and got little to nothing actually done, I still loved my time in the guild. I think that evil personally has a lot more RP involved, but this RP would likely be more combat based, unless we do branch out and begin to meet with more like-minded groups. Plus, it gives me a lot more to work with on the way of events.

So yea, I<3#2

I'm throwing in a hat to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" ring. I wasn't around for the original glory of Marianna, but I like working with her so far and I'm all for evil, demon-riddled chaos.

Evil adviser with a nasty case of bad looks?


Let's do this thing.

You've still got my Witch.

Perhaps a poll might be useful here after a while of discussion and thought?

Yoooou asked me to post here, Rosencrat, but I really feel like everything I told you is already there.


All I can possibly add to this is that it's your guild, and your character. You should be doing whatever you want with it, whatever you like best.

I know we have some widely varying ideas on terms of villainy (as seen before in the past), but I wouldn't toss your plans if you still have the energy put behind them.

A 47 year old woman may not be the amazing imposing figure you might envision as a villain, but in my opinion I think that works to a villain's advantage; to not be the suspect in the room, and to be able to interact with others without immediately having them notice her flapping wings and horns.

And heck. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to play it as a subtle villain, just one that isn't as blatant. I'm just trying to offer that you can keep this going, even if you feel it will have something of a different feel to it.

That's just my two cents, though. I realize you may have a different take on the villainy, and that's fine.

Good luck either way; in the end just do what you find appealing, because working at a project you can't get behind will just drag you down. Find what you like and go from there; it's always better when both the participants and the leader of the RP are the ones getting their kicks from it, y'know? Speaking from experience it stinks to be the guy who feels obligated to their project, or RPs elsewhere as a way to get some relief from your own storyline.

So basically what other people have said, I'm sure. I'm typing quick-like before I leave for home, so I didn't have much time to read.