Conquest of the Horde

Full Version: Lost limbs and magic/engineering. Good or bad?
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Might be small, and short, but I can't help but notice that 9 out of 10 people play crippled people as individuals with superb, sometimes superheroic abilities. Lost an arm? Replace it with a much better mechanical/magical arm. It will work just like the one before, but it can do a whole lot of fancy things!

Lost a leg? No problem, add a mechanical leg with cannons and machine-guns.

*Coughs*

Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to just let characters be maimed in order to obtain such marvelous inventions. Regardless, I would like the server's opinion on this. Is it just me seeing things or does this really happen? Losing a limb sometimes makes little sense, as it does not prejudice you at all, at least in some cases I've seen here.
Personally, I know of two characters with such limbs. One of them is a techno-caster and the other is a corpse. I don't think it's a major problem, personally.

. . . However, we should have more cripples. Many more cripples.
I personally only have one character of mine who has mechanical limbs, and that character in question is a Techno-Mage. The thing is, however, while I do generally agree with your points. . .well, Techno-Mages -do- have that queer clause where their mechanical limbs are better and their class abilities are more appropriate/ideal for possessing mechanical fixtures.

Nonetheless, I generally see it as a matter of player choices. The player decides whether to be maimed or not, and if not, then they would find ways and means to overcome it. Mechanical limb. Or druid magic.

" Magitech Armor

Technomagi can create armor and replacement limbs which can be moved and feel just as an actual limb. This is only applicable to the Mage themselves, not an ally. "

I am inclined to being biased, so I would naturally argue that anybody save a Techno-Mage would be incapable of possessing thus replacement limbs and/or abilities. /bias

The gripe I see, however, is that you are arguing that the mechanical limb ends up -better- than the normal one, making being -maimed- a good thing. In which case, I see your point.
I, personally find it ridiculous.

Therefore, I agree. In my mind, a machine simply cannot replace a lost arm. No matter how you try it. And replacing a lost limb with a much better mechanical arm just makes my 'facepalm o' metre' go up the roof.
I think it's all case by case. Seeing how characters are profiled for their abilities and classes, I think adding limbs should keep the characters true to those classes as much as possible, though there is some wriggle room.

When I had Dibykali lose her leg back when the Ratchet arena was around, I kept the prosthetic she took on as simple and crude as possible, it basically helping her regain mobility and nothing beyond that, at the cost of her dealing with bleeding and pain in the connecting area.

Engineers have a little more room, provided they either are established as having such skill even before the loss of limb, or that they went through a vigorous and difficult process to create the limb which may require playing a month or more as crippled before the limb is made.

Basically, the new limb should help the character get near to or match what they were before the loss of limb, and don't turn every character that loses a limb into a Steam Warrior.
If I recall the lifelike mechanical limbs that techno-mages had was more a prestige ability, and may not actually be allowed in the freeform/variant class. I don't think you can make a machine that works like flesh and blood would.
Personally, I'm against the whole 'auto-mail' deal, regardless of how 'advanced'. It seems to cheapen the whole 'maiming' deal, more so since almost -everyone- grabs some kind of terminator powered arm that packs more firepower than most APCs.

What happened to carved wood?
Yes, it ends up being the exact point. Even classes like technomage, even if being able to replicate a similar arm, would hardly be able to make it any better. We don't think much about it because frankly, none of us never lost a limb for real, but if you check out around with people who did you'll see how difficult it is to replace the said limb. Steel, iron and whatnot would make the limb annoyingly heavy, thus blasting your balance to pieces, especially when you aren't very heavyweight. The point ends up as people losing a limb in one week, replacing it in the next one with one that is impossibly better than the original, and also filled with strange trinkets/powers.

Someday I'm going to create a character that lost both arms and legs and replaced it with "awesome" terminator parts. I will probably be banned the day next, but at least I will be leaving with style. xD
I also wonder if the life-like mechanical limbs were something that came from the D20 or not since we retconned use of it.
I feel I am required to speak on this, as I believe I possess one of the characters in question.

Believe me when I say, I have posted a number of times in the private forums about Anna's mech-work. When she lost her arm, I asked thoroughly about what would be acceptable and what would not be. And, yes, the "bonus" techno-casters get with the mechanical limbs passes, so long as it does not make one inherently stronger. They aren't super robot arms, they just move and feel* natural, bar any tinkering that might make one fire off a rocket. There is an in-game recipe for that, actually! In fact, Anna switches between two: one geared more for battle and defense, one regular. This was also approved. I can assure the "battle" arm is not made for handling teacups and day to day tasks, and the regular arm is well...quite regular! The switching hurts, and takes a while, so you won't find her acting like a Transformer-bot in the middle of battle. And both easily short in water, both nicely dented and crunched if you hit them right.

Another issue that cannot render real prosthetic limbs and the ones in Warcraft comparable is the metal available. In Azeroth, with the right skill, magic, and alloy metals can be light as a feather.

To me, this seemed a "natural" IC move for Annabelle, and any techno-caster. Yes, on CotH limbs can be regrown. But, not everyone is a dedicated researcher, blending will and machine.

*Note: When I say "feel" I mean in terms of spacial recognition. The most texture feeling these things get is perhaps pressure. And that is just for techno-casters.
(12-24-2011, 07:16 AM)Whym Wrote: [ -> ]I, personally find it ridiculous.

Therefore, I agree. In my mind, a machine simply cannot replace a lost arm. No matter how you try it. And replacing a lost limb with a much better mechanical arm just makes my 'facepalm o' metre' go up the roof.

In a game full of crap like Mind-Control Helmets. Ok then.


Anyway, it's all about checks and balances. Say someone loses their arm, then a healer magics them a new arm. Exactly like the old, no new pros or cons. I think that is fair (indeed, part of the challenge is finding a healer that powerful), because you gain no new advantages.

Stuff like technomage arms, though, should come with a drawback for their buffs. I know in Shadowrun, when you tech out your guys, you lose your humanity some, to the point where you can literally become a Terminator (at which point you have no humanity at all and any more tech will kill you), but we can try other things. Stuff like managing and maintaining your artificial limbs should be considered, as well as stuff like what the arm can and can not do as far as being, well, an arm. You can't feel things with it, or be as flexible, for example. Things like that. And if your arm is a Dwarven Machine Gun Mark X-03, then you pretty much don't have an arm, AND you're carrying like 30+ pounds of weight unsupported on your shoulder. CONSIDER THESE THINGS.
Reminds me of dis gui.

Spoiler:
[Image: Viktor_Splash_0.jpg]
MWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Meh. As it's been said above, as long as it doesn't really do anything crazy (guns or trinkets built in) than I don't really have a problem.

I see where they come from though, most cases you don't want your character to get maimed and sometimes there are events where the only rules are maim or die. Obviously, you'll pick maim and if you can find a way to get maimed, but come back full power good for you. Just don't be OP.

Not saying anyone I've ever seen was/is/will be, but this is just what I think about it.
(12-24-2011, 09:00 AM)CappnRob Wrote: [ -> ]In a game full of crap like Mind-Control Helmets. Ok then.
"In a game"
Exactly. I don't take everything what I see IG, by mechanics IC. Hell, I'd have magically reappearing shields, weapons, infinite bolts, arrows, could summon Infernals within two seconds...
The list goes on.
I hope Dino's that 1 out of 10 mentioned in the topic post. All of Dino's "superhuman abilities" are in his brain, which are used when he's doing his awesome stuff from researching biology to providing care to the ill and sick to using deception and deceit to throw off his pursuers (smoke bombs, yo!).

I am, though, afraid I'm gonna go off on a rant, so I'll put spoilers here.

Spoiler:
I have worked with special needs children and people with disabilities all my life. My mom started a special needs foster care program when I was only 9, wherein our home was to be shared with said special needs children. Besides mental disabilities, I have seen and worked with those with physical, mostly those with muscular dystophy. One particular boy, we've had for over ten years, and I've seen and watched him grow from a boy who is several grades behind and perpetually glued to a wheelchair, to a film critic capable of lifting his own weight from a wheelchair to a walker. In addition to this, I also volunteered for half a year at a senior activity center, where not only do I get to help seniors on canes, walkers, and wheelchairs move about, I even get to see them have a good time despite of their failing health.

With all that said, as much as I am a person with no physical disabilities, it frustrates and sometimes angers me when someone creates a "badass cripple" wherein the badassery is -because- of the handicap. Wait, but isn't that the point of the "badass cripple"? Let me elaborate.

Dr. Dino, for all intents and purposes, is a bit of a shameless author avatar of mine in regards how handicapped characters are handled in fiction. Yes, he's meant to be my badass cripple... but is he badass because he's a cripple? Hell no. I can't tell how -frustrating- it is whenever people are running past him and all Dino can do is hobble on a cane. RPing him hobbling is frustrating in itself, and just the fact I can't move him very far or fast, I can just feel the frustration a real life cripple would have when surrounded by useful legs.

It would make sense, at this point, IC and OOC, to simply replace his legs with prosthetics. Dino is an engineer alongside being a doctor, and putting that together, in addition to the fact he uses firearms, he could make really badass legs. Cool, huh? Actually, it wouldn't be... because replacing his legs would actually -detract- from his badassery... because all of Dino's badass comes from his abilities despite his disabilities.

Real life badass handicaps are not badass because of their disabilities, it's despite of them. Wheelchaired folk playing basketball despite their height cut off in half on virtue on seated on a chair? Oh, yeah, very badass. Get them walking? Now they're just normal players. A person with amputated fingers playing Rachmaninoff with no problem? Hot damn, they're badass. Give them prosthetic fingers? Well, they're still awesome, but now they can play like normal pianists. Get my point?

Now, like in real life, everyone has a chance and freedom to improve their lives as they so wish. If the wheelchaired basketball player or amputated pianist want prosthetics, let them, they are free to pursue their goals if it makes them happy. In fiction? Oh, boy, especially in roleplay, it seems we go over the top. I'm not saying a person with a lopped off left hand replaced with a machine gun isn't cool, though... but I cannot see them as a handicapped badass. What do I see them? As a person with a gun for an arm. That's it. You're not a cripple, you're someone with an anatomical advantage. You cannot be considered a handicap if you don't -have- one. Cripples are cripples because they have a disadvantage.

I feel the need to shout this out, as it is a mantra used by disabled people I know and from other people I know how use this on me...

"NEVER USE YOUR DISADVANTAGE AS AN ADVANTAGE TO GET AHEAD IN LIFE."

End of rant.


So yeah. My beef with most characters who are described as "badass cripple" towards maimed characters whose parts are replaced with supercool robotics just... rub me off the wrong way, socially speaking. They're cool, they're awesome, they kick butt, they're among the best heroes and villains... but for god's sake, THEY ARE -NOT- CRIPPLES!!! If you want to roleplay the handicapped badass, roleplay the "handicapped" part. This isn't just for realism and balance, it's also to really understand what really makes a super awesome handicapped person while feeling the frustrations they feel while surrounded by normal everyday people.

I will repeat a short version of my above rant: Handicapped badasses are not badass -because- of their disabilities, but -despite- of it. It's not the replacement of their weaknesses, it's overcoming them that is inspiring. I really wish more writers and RPers would understand that.

Dr. Dino will never, -ever- get prosthetics on his legs, no matter how irritating and undignified it is to hobble like an old man (he's 42!) or bum off rides on someone's shoulders or back. If he's gonna be truly walking one day, it's because he managed to overcome his muscular dystrophy through therapy and excercise. In my opinion, that's far more awesome than just lopping his legs off and replacing them with robotics.
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