Conquest of the Horde

Hello friends,


A continual issue I see popping up periodically on the server are the rules concerning etiquette. That being how we behave to one another, both in subject matter of what we're talking about and the way we talk about it. In short its encompassing the language, respect, and maturity rule, so perhaps it would first be best to examine how each of these plays a part.

Language
So language is a big thing, just to start with. Of course I am referring chiefly to coarse language; profanities and offensive terms of race, gender, etc. In short, they just have no place here. Not in public chat at least, because not only are there people here who would rather be best off not having their screen filled with these words due to age, but also because some people just find the words themselves distasteful.

I'm personally of the second category there. Use of crude language if anything usually can only damage the reputation of another to me; any meaning they wished to put behind the text kinda evaporates when you see it sprinkled with words that would compare to a young gradeschooler who has just discovered the word 'f**k'. That's always what I get out of these words-- and it may just be that that's one of the main discrepancies between child and adult around where I live (surprisingly), but I know that others have voiced the same opinion.

I've heard in defense before that people feel that it adds 'flavor' to their text, but really that flavor is only one that is distasteful. When I see someone spouting out profanity I don't think of them as fun to be around, I just think they're crude. Or immature. Maybe both. In no way is it endearing, especially not from the perspective of someone who has only just met them.

In short, this is my rule that I keep to when speaking to others; Would you say this in public? In a crowd that could hear you, to a total stranger? If so, would it cause the crowd to stare? Then you probably shouldn't be saying it to me. I've actually seen this described situation happen, and they weren't staring in approval.

Free speech says I can say whatever I want though.
Here's the thing. Yes, free speech and whatnot. But if you go out in public and start screaming profanities a cop is eventually going to walk up to you and tell you to stop. If you give that kind of language to people in public, most will walk away or be offended. You can accomplish -anything- you wish to phrase in text without the use of expletives, so your speech need not be impeded-- you're consciously choosing to throw in words you should know are unwanted. In the end though, while I consider this an explanation as to our stance on this, the reality is that free speech does not extend into private groups. When you come into a community with a rule like Language (which IS a rule on this server), you're not under free speech. You're under the rules the community enforces, and if the administration enforces against the use of profanity then too bad. Similar to a school, or a club-- you can say what you want, but we can kick you out for it if we don't like it.

I think we're all mature enough to handle a bit of language, though.
I'm not saying we're not, and I think its a bit of an inane argument to say that our limitation of profanity on the server somehow makes it less mature. In the workplace I don't see people dropping expletives at one another-- I don't see that in how any of the working adults speak around here. The only adults I know of who swear regularly are the ones that like to occupy their front porch with a white t-shirt, jeans and a can of beer. Profanity to me screams the absolute opposite of maturity when used so freely, in counterargument to this. As mentioned above you can put just as much emphasis and meaning into your words without using this kind of language. Do that.

Respect
So respect is a big rule on CotH, and its a big factor when you're talking to other people. While I could recite the former lines on language, there's more to one angle on this.

While respect certainly factors in what you're saying to someone, it also concerns listening to them. Its a general rule on CotH that if someone is uncomfortable with a subject matter, then that subject is taken into private conversation. Not 'can be taken', 'is taken'. Infringing on your conversation? Yeah, but the subject is bothering them as well. Its easier for the speaking party to move to private conversation and continue their discussion rather than halting everything to bicker with the third party about how their words or subjects should be acceptable.

Not everyone has the same standards on CotH, as we come from different places around the world-- I realize that. It may not make entire sense when someone shows discomfort or offense to what you're saying, but does it really matter? Do you need to have a full understanding as to why a subject bothers someone for it to be dropped? Even if something causes an irrational anxiety in a person you should respect their worries and be respectful to their request. Not everything needs to be provided with a meaning, especially when you personally may not fully understand that explanation. Its difficult to phrase fears and angers sometimes-- and you can't really write off someone's discomfort when you don't know how they feel.

In short, it doesn't matter who is offended, why they are offended, or so on-- if someone is not comfortable with a discussion, do them a favor and move it to private chat. Its less hassle all around that way, and its in-line with the rules of the server.

Maturity
Really, maturity is what this entire post boils down to. Maturity is something we value highly on the server, in just about all facets. Be mature enough to show respect to others. Be mature enough to use appropriate language with others. This is just simple civility, really, and all of the above is effectively in the rules that you agreed to prior to joining this server.

But why is it alright IC but not OOC?
Because talking between characters and talking to another person has a different connotation. In general the policy of no OOC profanity helps arguments run more smoothly for all involved-- because as has been commonly noted, emotion is hard to convey with text. Its hard to tell if someone is trying to be humorous, angered, or etc. when profanity is thrown in, and in the end it is more effective just to remove those terms. This is not the only reasoning, as I've mentioned more above, but it is an important one.

Who is this aimed at?
As is typical with my rambles, no one. I don't wish to single out people, and in this case this has been a widespread issue, and one that seems to commonly reoccur.

But I am ___. I'm the only one who should be offended by what I say.
Once more, I point to the above. You do not know what can cause another person discomfort. You -cannot- know what will cause them discomfort. If they ask you to cease, be the better man/woman and accept their request. Continue your discussion in private with those who don't take issue with your words, if you must. Just don't argue-- it doesn't end well for either party. If you really feel unjustly treated, you can always contact a GM.

And that's about all from me. In conclusion,

The Bill and Ted pic clinched it for me. Awesome post!

Crude and immature describe me to a t. However, I try to keep it in check here on CoTH, mostly because I know I can really, really aggravate people with the crap I sometimes spew forth.

Hell, it's why when we play APB, we often join a chat that's -away- from everyone else. Why? Because APB is in itself a very crude game... not to mention one that's so infuriating sometimes that you end up tossing eff words at it like you were born saying it.

But I agree with you Rigley... CoTH is not the place for it, out of character. I hope I follow this, because boy do I know how I can be sometimes.

I loves me some profanity and I'm used to be around friends who are very loose with the tongue, but I've come to learn that its better to respect others than expect to be catered to.

Wonderfully written, Rigley. Very clearly exemplified point, direct and quaint.

Quote:But why is it alright IC but not OOC?

Because talking between characters and talking to another person has a different connotation. In general the policy of no OOC profanity helps arguments run more smoothly for all involved-- because as has been commonly noted, emotion is hard to convey with text. Its hard to tell if someone is trying to be humorous, angered, or etc. when profanity is thrown in, and in the end it is more effective just to remove those terms. This is not the only reasoning, as I've mentioned more above, but it is an important one.

A million times this! I cannot tell you how many times I've asked people to drop their language or subject, but get this thrown in my face. I'm normally left stumbling as to trying to explain it but I'm not the best at it beyond 'OOC' and 'IC' are the same thing. It's really frustrating to me because I cringe every-time I see someone who...really doesn't want to drop it because of the fact we can use it IC. It also sorta bugs me that people tend to forgot these rules over the COTH Skype chat or team speak, as I've always pegged them as following the language rule.

There's even been a couple of times I've had to put someone on my ignore list because they persisted on a subject I did not wish to hear or experience.

I know I cuss every now and then, but I do my best to avoid it over COTH related stuff and I really have a hard time speaking about such things outloud. [Mostly because my mother would smack me and my brother a good one if we so dared to even utter the START of a profanity.] There are some words I just wont say outloud because I'm afraid that stranger #579 next to me might have a trigger.

TL:DR: I adored this post.

Hrm. I want to agree with this article, but I kinda...don't. On one hand, I understand where you're coming from and concurrently agree. Being overly immature and directing profanities towards other people serves no constructive purpose in a dialogue. Even if we disagree, we shouldn't delve into ad-hominids or personal attacks.

But, at the same time...

I feel (and this is just me personally) that people get offended way too easily. It isn't something that's limited to COTH, mind ya. The news media just loves filling the air with an 'outrageous scandal'. Some hot topic issue where everyone declares a moral outrage, talks about how offended they are for a few weeks, before the issue fades off into obscurity.

I do see elements of that here on COTH. Sometimes, I think we're a community of drama queens, with people taking things way out of context or far too seriously. So, on the issue of offending others, I would like to stress that part of the issue lies on the individual to not over-react or be incendiary when they are offended. And also to remember that COTH is not life and life is not COTH. Even if someone is a total ass to you, it shouldn't be something that ruins your life.

...the weird thing is, I've never thought much about etiquette. Such a strange word. And while I think general politeness and non-dickery are important, I think that there's been a long-running current in COTH where that sort of thing is way overboard. It may be a matter of different perspectives, but I see COTH as being too polite, too kind.

And it does lead to a few problems. One of the reasons why I theorize why we have so many explosive drama storms is because of all that repression. People put on a polite social mask in chat and in public forums, being nice to one another by day. But then at night? Once their comfortable in their own little social circles? They talk venom. They talk hate. They mock and they ridicule and spread rumors and misconstrue facts.

I've heard GM's talk horribly about players and vice versa. I've seen different groups take a completely different account of a certain event. I've seen people pass around daggers in the shadows and to make ready for an OOC character assassination. I've seen players plot in secret to gang up on others in an electronic lynching, working with one another to drive the 'undesirable' out of the community.

I know it 'cause I've participated in it. I've seen it. It never goes away. The only thing that changes are the players involved.

Its something I call 'The Roman Senate'. Some of ya may recognize that term (I've used it in previous posts when I go all introspective on "COTH's problems"). On the surface, we're all diplomatic and charming. But underneath it all? Everyone's plotting everyone elses' demise. Creating alliances in the form of cliques, spreading rumors and mining secrets. Passing daggers. Plotting shadows. Dizzying, crazy, real human darkness stuff.

And before any of you go "Yeah Krent, I totally think you're right on that! People who do that suck!", I want you to remember that all of us are a part of the senate. There is no faction, no group of individuals that is totally 'free' from this complex. We're all guilty. Everyone.

So, wait. What was I talking about again? Oh, yes, catharsis.

Sometimes, because of our shadowy political nature, I think it may be better for COTH to...cut loose on the etiquette at times. Go wild. Say the things that'd make other people gasp. Talk about the issues we're not supposed to talk about. Make a Mad House for people to go crazy in. No rules, no guidance, no structure or purpose. Just pure, unbridled emotion, letting controversy flow like some-kind-of-suitable-metaphor.

Why should we have that?

'Cause catharsis. Let go of all that repression. Stop harboring it in the shadows of private chat. If we learn to let go of all that stuff, then maybe we'd have less explosive drama storms erupting every time some minute detail of the COTH experiences changes slightly. And maybe people would stop hating each other. Or, at least we'd be honest about how we all hate each other. I don't know.

Oh no the post is way too long again quick Krent post a video

I agree with Rig'. Fine, if in doubt if something might be offensive, to private. If you had no idea it's offensive but someone thinks so, to private. Fine.

I also agree with Krent, in the sense that a Come-in-at-your-own-risk-everything-goes-in-here, every word, every subject would be 1. Fun, 2. Beneficial and 3. Revealing of what people are really like.

Why I think that is acceptable is because of the fact that if people reaaaly wanted it, they could falsely-call-it-IC and have it. I'd be for giving them that corner.

Besides - those fellers in the Roman Senate would cuss each other all the way to Jupiter and back. They'd get quiet and polite around the ides of March though...

(05-08-2012, 12:27 PM)Krent Wrote: [ -> ]Words.

See, personally I'd view this as two separate issues.

'Cause heck, I think there can be argument and voiced opinions without profanity.

But on the issue of CotH being repressed? Eh...

I don't think its any more so than society as a whole. Its just that on the net people can unleash without as much perceived repercussion. The thing is is that you -can't- just go swearing up a storm in public without being called out for it (mileage may vary by region, I suppose), nor could you walk up to someone and start talking about topics like rape without expecting some kind of social awkwardness. I don't understand why the same can't be done here.

I don't find what I've described any more restricting than a normal day outside-- because in real life you usually only speak so freely with your friends. Or in a private group/chat/etc., put into view here. The only thing I think is different is that some might feel that shouldn't apply on the net, but... I think it kinda has to be to have a community that isn't just unpleasant.

I suppose this is from my perspective, but honestly I would never have stayed on CotH if it just allowed everyone to go free-for-all at one another. I know that may not necessarily be what your saying, but at this point we get into 'where does the line stop?' when talking about when to penalize someone for their behavior and when not to. And in my case specifically I've never shied away from people using profanity because it makes me uncomfortable-- I just don't like to see it. I feel people can use better words to get their meaning across. I feel that people can speak freely without offending people.

Another note...

The thing with venting is that it doesn't really help. Venting kinda encourages people to vent more, since its a release for stress. But if that release is violent and hateful, then that's not a good thing-- it just kinda lets the rage simmer some before it comes back. I know; that used to be my method of coping, and it was pretty unhealthy. While it could be argued that people shouldn't get so offended, I think I could make a point that people shouldn't get to the point where they feel like profanity if -absolutely necessary- to express their opinion to others, or get to the point where they should be attacking one another at all. Its just a civil thing to try and tone that stuff down, y'know?

EDIT:

DaveM Wrote:I also agree with Krent, in the sense that a Come-in-at-your-own-risk-everything-goes-in-here, every word, every subject would be 1. Fun, 2. Beneficial and 3. Revealing of what people are really like.

Personally I wouldn't want to be in such a place. There are other communities for that, and I stay away from them.

Best line I was ever taught in my civics class.

"Your rights end where others begin."

An easy way to remember to respect another. Sure, I have the right to say bad words just as much as another has the right to not hear them. I think people just need to be a little more sensible and courteous to those of us within (and even out of!) the server.

Devil's advocate reductio ad absurdum:

What if all this talk about limiting very enjoyable cussing would truly and honestly offend me?

(05-08-2012, 02:26 PM)DaveM Wrote: [ -> ]Devil's advocate reductio ad absurdum:

What if all this talk about limiting very enjoyable cussing would truly and honestly offend me?

Then unfortunately you did not read the rules when joining the server:

CotHWiki Wrote:Language

No cursing or vulgarity in any public chat channel. Try to keep everything reasonably PG-13-rated. Being as how everyone automatically joins LFG, as an example, it really doesn't need publicly-inappropriate content. This also goes for the forums. Any OOC discussion that is R-rated and up needs to go in the Adult channel (type /join Adult). Again, derogatory comments will not be allowed in this channel, either.

These topics in ANY OOC channel (even /Adult) will result in a kick or ban

Rape

Racism

Drug use

We also request that things like OOC politics and religion not be discussed directly on the server or forums.There are plenty of places to have intelligent conversations about these topics on the internet, and we have no interest in the OOC drama it inevitably breeds. We don't mind if you discuss it elsewhere but leave this baggage at the door when you come to CotH.

EDIT: That was a bit curt. The fact is, there are other communities which are fine with profanity and are very open to discussion on otherwise socially less acceptable topics. CotH is not one of them though, nor has it ever been, nor has the administration ever expressed the will for it to be so. If you're offended by something that is outlined in the rules themselves then that's unfortunately a problem wholly placed on you.

Right, absolutely. The axioms that are the rules do give us an absolute starting point. Yet what your post explains is why the rules are important, exposing their resons beyond "Owners said so." If we'd have stopped at "Those are the rules", there'd be no reason for the OP. As part of respect, you mention:

Quote: "In short, it doesn't matter who is offended, why they are offended, or so on-- if someone is not comfortable with a discussion, do them a favor and move it to private chat. Its less hassle all around that way, and its in-line with the rules of the server."

So to take an example that does not hit the rule-wall - (just an example people) - What if someone feels offended by discussions of homosexual romance, and truly feels uncomfortable because of it? I.E. in Jonoth's guide thread.

The likely awnser is: because that is a perfectly legitimate discussion.

Yet if I speak about means of sexual self-gratification in a public channel, even without explicit pornonographic description (which is not an adult topic, since sexuality does not appear in adulthood), anyone at all that feels offended or uncomfortable can send me away.



What I'm saying is we, often unconsciously, we apply the taboos of what is acceptable and what is not as we meet them in society. The thing is, lots of the "unacceptable" stuff in society has no good reason at the end of the day to be taboo other than tradition itself. Bad words and subjects are only as powerful as we let them be by cringing when we hear them. Keeping them under a rug gives them power.

Of course, at the end of the day, the owners and their staff do exactly what they wish with the server and its rules, and that's perfectly normal. But since the discussion was opened on legitimising the rationale of the rules, I'm only explaining what challenges I think exist to that rationale.

(05-08-2012, 03:46 PM)DaveM Wrote: [ -> ]The thing is, lots of the "unacceptable" stuff in society has no good reason at the end of the day to be taboo other than tradition itself. Bad words and subjects are only as powerful as we let them be by cringing when we hear them. Keeping them under a rug gives them power.

The thing is though, this is society. A smaller version of a community perhaps, but a community nonetheless. Coming here doesn't free you of common mannerisms in what you should and should not say-- this isn't the place that we want to challenge that. There's a bit of a difference between a homosexual relationship and your other example of self-gratification; they're not really comparable at all.

Though on another note, arguing that 'not talking about this issue gives it power' is a bit of a poor way to approach things as well. Some topics people just don't want to talk about-- it isn't right to force them into those sorts of discussions for the sake of changing the perception of some matter. In the end is it worth causing them the trouble? Was something really gained by talking about rape in a public channel, for example? Was something gained by arguing religious matters and possibly offending the person that it pertains to?

I just don't see the allowance as being worth it, really. You can argue that keeping it away from those who dislike the topic gives it power, but I don't see how it makes the server a better place to throw those words and topics into circulation. People's perceptions won't change overnight, and some people would rather not deal with such things at all.\


It just kinda strikes me as putting forth an argument just to put forth an argument. There isn't much worth to it; those who really wish to discuss it could just discuss it in private and leave the rest out.

Quote: People's perceptions won't change overnight, and some people would rather not deal with such things at all."

We come on to CotH to be comfortable, not grind challenging word-perception improvement. We keep comfortable here and apply the social norms that we have today, because this is about fun and being inclusive.

The thing is, to talk of gay love became acceptable because some folks fought and insisted that "It should be okay for me to talk about gay love and sex, damnit!", forum by forum, mini-society by mini-society. Thirty, fourty years ago, to talk of gay love would have been -worse- than to talk about sexual self-gratification.

Perhaps in ten years, death will be a normal subject, perhaps sex in twenty, perhaps fetishes in thirty, perhaps drug use in fifty. But only if we can talk about it.

My point's not about CotH, it's about people in general picking between what is safe and comfy and what are the boogie monsters breeding under the bed that they need to pull out of there. I'll hop off-thread now since I've landed off-topic.