Quote:So, why can't we list every single thing a person did which counted towards a ban? Put the facts of the case up with the ban entry in Account Management? All of them.
Privacy. Seriously, there's a lot of stuff before someone's banned. We're not going to make that public information. It's bloody rude. Could a compiled list be given to the person being banned of -everything- they did? I suppose. But we're really not making it public information. I don't think there's a single GM or Ex-GM that agrees on this spot.
Quote:This would give people an incentive to avoid being banned. It would also make the GMs actions more transparent, and therefore, diminish the usual fear and lies (which have this nasty way of cropping up when everything important is hearsay.. and that's all bannings are around here). And ultimately, it does not divulge any private information. The only information it shares is that which the person gave of their own free will in the first place.
-GMs take logs before issuing bans. We take screenshots. We don't just go by hearsay. I've frequently told people 'I understand where you're coming from, but there's nothing we can do unless we have logs. Please, the next time something happens with this individual, use elephant or take screenshots so we have evidence'. We don't do things without evidence. We don't ban without evidence. This isn't just 'Oh I don't like this person let's ban him/her'. We really try to take personal feelings away from it all when we ban someone.
I don't understand why transparency is this coveted holy word. I think the GM team's pretty trustworthy, but I'm biased being an ex-GM. Is there no faith in them? I'm sorry if they don't take your (generalized your, not directed) side all the time, but from my experience, even before becoming a GM, they try to be fair in most situations. Are there slip-ups? Yeah. I keep saying that. GMs aren't perfect. But they're doing a fine job.
Quote:It also requires very little effort beyond the amount expended in normal bannings. And considering that we have far, FAR more GMs and Forum Helpers than we used to, a few sentences is not a problem. If some helpful soul feels like adding blanked-out logs, so much the better. Sound good thus far?
No. Blanked out logs are a horrible idea, because you can still totally guess who's who just from writing habits. I can tell who some people are on CotH based on their vocabulary. We've received anonymous logs frequently, and I can generally call out who sent in the log on that alone, along with many other factors. Also this is bringing up embarrassing information, and things that people might not be comfortable with disclosing. To openly show logs would be in poor taste, as it's disclosing information about the banned individual that said individual might not want to be known.
Furthermore, this is disrespectful to the people who give us the logs. Many of them don't want those logs to be made public information. Their reasons are their own for this, but they trust the GM team to keep it that way. Some of the stuff we get is really embarrassing if it were made public, and out of respect for all people involved, I truly hope that this level of transparency never comes.
Quote:This amount of disclosure is something we need for this server, and its rules. Why? Because the rules are so, incredibly broad that one can be banned for anything they do.
Let me give an example. Take Respect and Knowing when to quit for example. Both of those are rules. They were meant well, but they are too broad.
Questioning someone's character choice for any reason? Disrespect. Banned.
Standing up for yourself when you've been wronged? You don't know when to quit. Banned.
And those are very unimaginative, vanilla examples. Try this: go look at the rules, and imagine how many things which can be construed as 'offenses' occur every time you argue with your friends, or disagree over something in roleplay. Now remember that every GM is human, and has a different opinion of what constitutes a rule breach.
These are such extreme and unrealistic examples that only one with absolutely zero faith in the GM team would have. Are they a bit broad, sure. But seriously, we don't ban people for that stuff. Otherwise I would have been banned long before I became a GM. I don't think anyone's been banned for anything like these existing examples in my time.
Has that happened in the past? Yes
Has it happened in the past two or three years? I really don't think so.
Quote:Our rules are only interpretations.
I'll take this to mean that the rules are open to interpretation. IE: They're not concrete, hard, you do this and you'll be banned instantly. The only one I think in recent times that is actually concrete and hard is the plagiarism rule. Otherwise... I dunno. Yeah they're pretty loose, mostly because people are prone to making mistakes. I mean hell, if everyone got banned the moment they broke a rule, we'd have a lot of banned people. But the rules are broad enough and treated with enough respect by the GMs that we know how to be lenient. Can it be abused by GMs who are power-hungry ban-happy idiots? Yeah, totally. I'm pretty sure they aren't though.
Once again, this designates a significant lack of trust with the GM team.
Quote:The last example I gave might have been too idealistic. Consider all the times you've heard about a ban, and yet the reasons were all covered up. Or you hear enough people complain that you start to worry. Or, you were a friend of the banned person. Everything is concealed, and you're told it's private. And you know that under the rules, anything can be unacceptable - that feasibly, anyone can be banned for anything. Even personal reasons. Would you, as a player, continue to trust the GMs?
I totally would trust the GMs. If I didn't, I'd leave the server. Everyone they've banned, I can totally figure out why they were banned pretty quickly (even before I was a GM, no ban was a shock to me), and I'm surprised there are people who aren't aware of why they're banned. We do have numerous chats with people when they start to become problems, telling them what they've done wrong and how they can improve. There's probably a few people reading this who can vouch on my behalf, though I don't expect them to if only for privacy's sake. I'm guessing there's some exceptions that people can pick out, but really, it shouldn't be too surprising.
In America, arrest information is not public knowledge. We're not making our ban information public knowledge either, unless it's something we feel people should seriously be worried about.
Quote:If you don't want to have people fear and distrust GMs, remove the secrecy. Let the cause and effect be known. And show them that no nasty secrets are hiding behind that figurative curtain of yours.
No. Because there are 'nasty secrets' because we need to keep a lot of information so every GM's on the same page when it comes to people who have broken rules. Would they be willing to disclose a general synopsis of roughly what's in your warning thread and what you've done wrong lately? Sure. But to just lay the warning threads bare would be an absolutely foolish thing that would just splinter the community.
I implore that everyone trust the GM team to know what they're doing. People do get banned sometimes, yes. Sometimes they're friends. But it's not done without reason these days, at least. The GM team has significantly improved as far as being fair to players is concerned.
Quote:I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding. I didn't mean to imply the GM should take a picture, edit it to remove names, then send it the player; I meant that players should be free to ask what they have done wrong, so they can not do it again. Just the name of the offence.
Sorry about missing this Zhaei. Yeah, that's totally cool and I agree with you there. This is a change that I would enjoy, and it's pretty decent transparency all things considered, without being too... see-through glass-like. Though I think we do it already? Regardless, good idea, I like this. Sorry about the misunderstanding.
Quote:And really, no one wants to see their own thread. It will seem like a good idea until its yours [yours as in anyone, not specifically you.] being seen in public. I sure wouldn't want mine public because some of the things on there just have no right to be seen in the public eyes. I'm pretty sure a lot of people wouldn't want others scrolling though their thread. There is, of course, the PD route with this where only a specific person and the team can see them, but then we hop right back to the first paragraph I wrote.
I'd personally love for people to see my warning thread. But only because of how hilarious I find it. Though I suppose it does serve as a prime example of someone almost being banned without being made aware of what he/she's doing wrong.