Conquest of the Horde

So here is another topic I hope to talk with the server.

Interacting with the DM In-Character:
Storytelling without Stealing the Spotlight Yourself

I've been DMing almost as long as I've been RPing, and let me tell you: despite the amount of stress, energy, and focus it demands, I can pull it off like I can breathe and love it all. My events aren't ever perfect, however, and I strive to get better with the storytelling content, battles, and results as much as I can. If there is one thing I always fear, however, regardless of what the story is and whom I'm RPing with, I'm always fearful of hogging the spotlight with my character.

This mostly goes back to the fact that I've been a writer longer than I've been an RPer, so naturally, my stories revolve around the characters I write, and the RPer is just following along. However, I realized the folly of my ways and started only RPing sidekicks and support characters, with bigger intentions to have the player be the hero (or even the villian, which does happen) in the story. However, even that was met with interesting observations in CotH, and not just in events I lead: every time there is an event where the DM doesn't RP their character except to lead them to a path (and from there, the players take initiative), the amount of emotional investment drops like a stone. The event becomes not much more than "fight bad guy, save the day", and they're seldom as memorable. At least, again, from what I've observed.

This also counts in mission-based events where, although the OOC instructions are given clearly, and the players are given freedom to fulfill that objective, the event drags or derails because of lack of IC direction. The reasons for this varies--maybe the players are going to the wrong NPCs, or one suggests searching another area the DM didn't provide, or (which tends to happen to me SO very often not long ago) the player decides to derail the event by doing his own heroics, therefore preventing other players their own chances to be the hero. When you have an IC leader, while it makes the event neater, it sometimes feels like they're "railroading" too hard, or they're stealing the glory from other players (just replace the derailing player with the event holder).

The reasons why a DM wouldn't include a character to lead/interact with IC varies. Sometimes it's because we created a puzzle and we wanted the players to figure it out themselves. Sometimes it's really a matter of puppetting and tracking the rolls. Sometimes it's because we want to be 2 steps ahead of the players in predicting the event direction and interacting could prevent the story from forwarding. And so on and so forth. However, there are cons to having a DM character to interact with too. Sometimes the players rely too much on the presumed leadership of the DM and, thus, seldom take initiative in forwarding the event (this is especially true if the DM is a GM). Sometimes the players lose sight of the objective and decide the character(s) the DM is RPing as are more interesting (oh, dear god, Red Glove). And so on and so forth.


So I ask the players: How do you prefer your DMs to interact with your character in events? Do you prefer they stay OOC the whole time? Do you prefer they provide a leader for your toons to follow? Do you mind if the DM, even if unintentionally, take some of the glory of the event? Or does it really depend on the event itself?


There is a reason why I ask this, and it relates to how I will be leading the Hyjal story.

I think it depends on the nature of the event really. In a smaller group of 2-3, maybe 4 people I think it's pretty well justified to have your own character involved. Usually in cases like that, the event has naturally come from an idle RP and it doesn't make sense for a character to just up and leave.

On the other hand, if you have a full raid, it might be useful for your character to introduce what's happening, and drop an exposition bomb, or show them the right path, but other than that there's already a lot to deal with when there's so many character involved. Watching someone RP with themselves in front of fifteen other people can be kind of painful, especially because large scale events tend to drag on for so long.

Something I've wanted to mess around with a lot lately is the Mythic RPG system- It's totally GMless and fluid, everything decided by the players.

How do you prefer your DMs to interact with your character in events?
I like having a DM being within the event as a character or as the environment/reactions of the event. Basically I'm an either or person with the IC and OOC situations of DMs. Though I think sometimes the DM should make it easier on themselves if they can't handle both spectrums at the same time.

Do you prefer they stay OOC the whole time?
It makes it more interesting if they're OOC the whole time, acting out as that invisible entity of fate. Again, I'm an either or person with IC and OOC.

Do you prefer they provide a leader for your toons to follow?
Uhm, not really. I don't mind it, but I feel like our characters should rise up and take the initiative rather than already having a set leader to follow. I also feel that some people subconsciously make the DM's character as the leader because they know OOCly that they are the DM, therefore the lead of the event. I only have that opinion because I've DMed a few times. My character ended up making all the decisions for the group because everyone was trying to follow my lead. It's probably the way I set up things though. I'm not too good at writing. I'm more of an idea person.

Do you mind if the DM, even if unintentionally, take some of the glory of the event? Or does it really depend on the event itself?
It depends on the type of event and what kind of glory they're taking. If the DM tries to make their character a super hero intentionally all the time.. That's going to grind my gears a bit. Other than that, I usually don't mind the unintentional stuff.

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Reading my answers makes me feel like I'm a really chill person on this topic. >_>;

I think the line to draw in a DM's involvement is in the resolution. A DM can make his/her character the driving force of an event, but the resolution, good or bad, ultimately has to allow players the opportunity to affect the outcome. If the players feels as though they have no influence on that, the question to me becomes why it was done as an event, rather than a story.

DMing itself poses its own challenges. I've found it difficult to manage the activity and flow if I participate myself, so I do tend to pull myself out. Large events in themselves, whether DM or participant, tend to do the same for me. The one event I did that I felt managed to keep me involved as participant and DM was one of the first I did with the old Forsaken version of the Bloodpaw. I had about 7 or 8 participants, and they split into two groups to complete different tasks, with a rendezvous after they were done. The tough part was DMing two simultaneous fights, but I could have easily resolved that stress with a co-DM managing one of them. So perhaps the division of goals into smaller ones provides a better opportunity for a DM within a small group to be active in the end result.

I've always liked it when DMs whisper me little hints/events that my characters might notice or go through. I like when DMs do this because it's putting the spotlight on characters, but it's subtle, and so that spotlight isn't super bright. When a DM dualboxes so that they can have a character flying overhead/be on invisible (if GM) so that everyone's emotes can be heard due to range issues, I like it. It makes me feel like the DM is paying attention to everyone involved. When these two things are combined (the whispers and the dualboxing for range), a DM is doing a good job and putting effort into the interactions between himself/herself and the player.

Quote:Do you mind if the DM, even if unintentionally, take some of the glory of the event?

It's something that's bound to happen if the DM character is the leader, because leaders are predisposed to being in the position to have moments of glory: talking to important figures, making speeches, demanding at least some form of respect, trust, and obedience from the characters he is leading.

I think part of this is ingrained in the idea that players can't be trusted with moments of glory so the DM sets it up for their character to take it so that there's no feelings of jealousy among those who are involved. Most frequently, the thing that DMs don't seem to trust players with is leadership, and I think part of that is because the DMs are the designers of the event(s). In order for that design to be put into action the characters involved need to somehow be 'led' through it in the way that the DM wants it to go.

If the design is absolutely necessary, such as with it being a lore-based event, then the DM (leader) getting small moments of glory might be a necessary evil. Things that I mentioned above, such as talking to important lore characters, might need to be done by the DM. If there are less restrictions involved in designing the event, and the DM decides to provide more chances of glory for his/her own character and not others, that's when I tend to mind it, because there's a lack of effort by the DM to let other characters shine. It's easier to design it with chances for everyone to shine if you know who is going to participate in the event and on what character, but that is likely not the case most of the time. The DM has to come up with these chances on the spot, and that's one of the things that makes being a DM very difficult. So a lot of DMs just skip it to make it easier on themselves. Part of becoming a good DM is pushing yourself to make those efforts despite how tiring/difficult it might seem.

I really don't think "stealing the spotlight" and some such things is really something worth worrying about on CotH. An event is more of what the player makes of it-even if they never even see the GM's giant dragon, they could still get great character development going by an intense few hours/days/weeks of being together with the same few characters, likely out of their element.

This goes doubly so when it's clear the GM is telling a story through the event. Sometimes it's better when the true star of the event is something beyond what players can legit play.

That being said, if a GM were to prefer to stay OoC, I wouldn't at all be troubled with some sort of plot token that could be given to a specific character or characters that would ICly "provide insight" or something like that. Say, there's a magic sword that would whisper in the mind of its holder or something. I dunno if it would be all that effective, but I wouldn't mind a non-GM "leader" getting some direction of it means the DM can provide an overall cohesive experience.

I think I ranted about my personal preference in DMing a bit ago in another thread, but I'll state it here too.

With my own DMing, I have an IC character there to provide a guideline if players are truly stumped and not getting the hints laid out. Most of the times, I'll just throw them in to lead where people need to go and to hurry things along if time is becoming compressed. So I can the PLOT FORWARD character IC, and then a second box to move around NPCs and puppet them. I'd much rather have players step up and guide and lead the event because the story isn't for me and...it's hardly fun when you know what each interaction choice will pick.

Something I've wanted to do but haven't yet is bring up the possibility of failing events. For example, just recently in Uldum. Some of the characters there were annoying the NPC to the point where if it wouldn't have ended the event, I would have had him turn them away and forbade those characters from attending the 'lets try this again' part. [Charaters, not players. Really guys. Insulting my NPCs gets you nowhere and it is a very strong temptation to fail the event. ...I think I'll make a topic on this later.]

As for events I -attend-...it is sort of upsetting when the DM is also the leader and the one who cranks out all the witty one liners OUTSIDE OF MILITARY EVENTS. In military events, I'm more annoyed when players refuse to follow the orders of their superiors. All in all it depends on the event.

If the event is catered to a single character being the most important person there, then chances are I won't attend. That is a glory-hog I really dislike. If an event is catered to a guild, however, and I join as an outsider? Then I'm understanding that they're going to be the ones doing most of the work and getting most of the glory. It's their shabang after all. But when it's one character who failed the last five of his rolls someone getting the big-baddy kill because 'it's about my character', that's not okay to me.

I don't mind if the DM is ooc only or there IC. No reason they can't enjoy their own event as well, just so long as they're letting players make decisions too.