I didn't want to put a fancy post and I don't want to make this dramatic or anything. Before I really get into this, I'm very serious about what I'm about to say, but in no way am I referencing anything that's happened. The two recent suspensions didn't trigger this, in fact, I'm glad that suspensions were used (You'll find out why later). I've had this rolling in my head pre-New Year's, and It's about ready to come out. It's time we should really go into this, It's a new year and I don't want to feel this way anymore.
I'll start really simply. A man said "It is better to rule by fear, rather than by love". I disagree. However, I feel that the majority of the GM body is more feared than loved. Whether or not this is anyone's fault, is unimportant. If a GM says "Fear actually is better for xyz reasons.", here is a short story:
The setting is in two classrooms in a High-school or Grammar school. Teacher A constantly threatens her students with homework, detentions, and home calls. Her students are unruly, but now they all fear her. A month passes and the students are quite tired of being afraid. Again they become unruly, only more so. Teacher A reissues the threat, and the students go back in their place. The majority of her student body secretly hates and disrespects her.
Teacher B's students are unruly. Teacher B tells her students that she loves them but that she can't deal with 20-30 of them at a time. She asks that they follow her instruction and in return she will consider rewarding them. A good amount, (Not all.) follow suit and after a month, they begin to understand their teacher. They 'choose' to listen to her. They aren't forced to. Teacher B still has some bad eggs, but it's only the bad ones she has to worry about now. The majority of her student body loves and respects her.
In the short run, fear works. In the long run, it doesn't. I personally get an atmosphere of fear when a GM is referred to. I try not to fear anybody, but to respect everyone. I think some players are held only out of fear of being banned. At first, I thought that not *that* many people have been banned, but I took a look at the list. What disturbed me is not the amount of people banned, but the amount of people suspended. That list was empty. (It isn't now.) My first true request is you use suspensions more than bans. Reform will always do more good. If a player ever comes off the wrong way and needs to be put in their place, a suspension should always be enough. Bans should be like a secret weapon. You don't talk about it, but everybody knows it's there, and there is no reason to be afraid of it because there is no way you won't see it coming.
I haven't been here all that long, and I'm not sure if those that are banned were given a lofty amount of suspensions or warnings. That was only one request from me so far. Again, if you don't want to wade through text, I ask that you really use suspensions more than bans. If anything, the ban shouldn't even be the last straw, because it should never come to that. That is not something players can be held completely responsible for. Please make it perfectly clear that bans are not something to be afraid of.
My second request is a lot less controversial. (?) I've read that the GMs try to create a guild/family type of setting. I don't feel that from the server. I'm just feeling a bunch of people floating in space and a few in their own cliques. (I'm floating in space, by the way! ) One of these cliques is a GM clique. Now having a circle of friends is fine, but alienating people isn't good. This goes for all circles. In all the guilds that I have been in, the leaders didn't segregate themselves. The leaders were more like 'Big brother/sister' figures, rather than 'Mother/Father' figures. You related with them because you could talk with them, argue with them, you could agree with them. The leaders that were like parents were almost impossible to relate with. They hid on their social towers and castles and their was just no reason to try talking to them. You didn't understand them, they didn't understand you.
I feel the wrong type of vibe from the GMs. I want to feel like you guys are my friends at the same time of being the authority in the setting. I can't really get to talk with any of you. (With a few exclusions.) If any of you think we don't want to relate, that's wrong. I see your GM powers as more of a gift than a burden in many situations. The GMs have social lives outside of here, I know, but so do the players. If you ever have the free time for it, just sign in and show your face! When Grakor logged in the other day and said: "You really shouldn't greet me, half of the time I get on it's to do a not-nice thing" I really felt bad. It really shouldn't be like that.
I think the GMs want to be able to be friendly with us, but just don't have the time, energy, or resources to do it. My second request is for players actually. Be a bit empathetic when it comes to GMs. Try and see things from their perspective. There's only a handful of them and a truckload of us. Actually, this should go both ways. My last request is probably the most important of all, at least in my eyes, because it's not a vibe or a hunch but something real. Although it might not be all of you: Please, Role-play with us. That's got to be the best way to control your server. Thanks for reading, and considering my requests, everybody.
We've said this time and time again, that bans do not come out lightly. With the exception of around a few times, a majority of the people on the ban list have had suspensions way before they were banned.
The two recent bans were from a couple of guys using racist terms in the channels.
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES DO WE TOLERATE RACIAL SLURS OR STERIOTYPES.
In this case, if you think it's okay to throw around racial slurs, then yes, live in fear on the server.
Other than that, you have nothing to worry about if you simply follow our rules.
Edit: Also, the two in question were -not- banned. They were suspended.
NORMALLY, we DO NOT ban straight off the bat. People get warnings. They read the rules. That's a warning. They are asked at least twice if they have read the rules and agree to them. That's two more warnings there. They get kicks or suspensions, which are exactly that, warnings. Usually in-between those are either GMs or OTHER PLAYERS speaking to them, saying, "look, this is a bad idea". Bans and suspensions never come out of the blue.
The two suspensions you are discussing were in regards to racist remarks. Normally, with all the databases functioning properly, these would have been bans. Why? Because there are some things you NEED to be zero-tolerance on. If you are thinking we have no sense of humor, when it comes to comes to racial slurs you are absolutely correct. We used to be more lenient, and the server was a very ugly place.
We DO give more suspensions than bans. People who are banned are the people who either crossed the line and sailed on without slowing down, or people who didn't catch the big hint when they were suspended. The list you are seeing is NOT just recent bans, it covers well over a year of information and incidents. The list was started when we had a certain player that was really awful, but had brought a fan club with them. After they were finally banned, the fan club alternated between not understanding that they the player wasn't coming back (which we felt was cruel to lead them on with), or rumor-mongering why they were banned. The list clears up both parts of this.
I'm not sure where you're getting that the GMs don't like to roleplay with everyone. Myself, I haven't been on much due to outside factors, so I haven't had the chance to roleplay as much as I would like, but when I am on, I am usually seeking RP, and say as much in public channels. We are playing with characters that people may not recognize the names of yet, so it's possible you have RPed with a GM and not known about it. Part of that is also affected by the fact that the server has been going along fairly nicely, and we don't need to announce warnings as much.
We do not want to "rule by fear", and we have never tried to. That's why we get involved in off-topic discussions and joke threads, join in on Barrenschat, and... well, enjoy this server just like everyone else does. Any strictness is not an attempt to make players fear us, it is simply that we have learned from experience that there are certain issues that we must put our collective foot down on.
Rensin, I didn't mean those two last suspensions. I'm actually glad they were suspended, because I myself have had run ins with racism. I've gotten tougher skin because of it, but I really don't like that either. This post has nothing to do with that incident. What Grakor said touched me and really got me thinking even more. I do not personally know anyone who was banned on that list except one, and I was there when those two were suspended. I did not make this post on their behalf. I know them only by their characters. What I'm really hoping is that bans wont need to be issued and that suspensions will work better. Part of what I'm saying is that I'm happy how that whole thing happened. (There was no arguing, and it was clean-cut.) I'm also saying that I prefer it this way and I really don't want to see that ban list get any longer, is all.
To Qaza's post: I'm really glad to hear this. I haven't been here that long so I cannot possibly accuse anybody of anything. I am not all-knowing or all-seeing, but from what I've seen and heard (I've heard some bad things about CotH) Things have happened here. What's been done is over, but I don't want it to happen again. I didn't like the racist remarks one bit. I actually wasn't enjoying the direction that conversation was going, but I was hopeful it wouldn't have had reached that point. It did, and I'm very happy with how Grakor handled it. I haven't been in the process of being banned so I don't know what happens in between, but I truthfully think there are players who are afraid of getting banned, when they really shouldn't be.
Edit: I might not have given credit to what you GM's do. You all have done really good for the server, stuff that I have seen. I didn't make this post to be an angry one. I'm very thankful for the things you do on a daily basis. The work-list you have set up, filling the auction-house with RP friendly items, porting characters, and approving the profiles. I'm not looking to say your not doing enough.
To avoid ever worrying about being banned or suspended:
- Read the rules and policies. Don't skim and nod your head, actually think about them. Then follow them.
- Listen to others. If they ask you to stop something, do so.
- If you don't get along with someone, put them on your ignore list, or just manually avoid getting into conflicts with them instead of sniping at them.
- If someone is harassing you, say something to a GM (screenshots help!) and don't try to "settle the score".
- Do not harass others. This includes being "possessive" of other players or their characters. This behavior is alarming to others and highly uncomfortable for the target of the attentions.
- Don't exploit.
- Respect others.
The number one reason for the bans listed is disobeying the Respect rule. This does not mean they were making "your momma" jokes in Barrenschat, it means they were being absolutely rude to people or treating them very poorly.
If you can follow these, YOU ARE NOT IN DANGER OF BEING BANNED. So calm down, relax.
The items on that list were not randomly chosen. Every single one of those mentioned on the banlist didn't do at least one of the things on there.
I share Touchseed's sentiment of hoping that the ban list does not grow any longer. Nothing would make me happier. And we have given you all the tools to make sure it doesn't. It's up to you to use them.
I'd like to think that the application process is assisting in this. I know that the character profiles I've seen have been nothing short of fantastic, and the general chat (aside from obvious recent issues) has been very friendly. Instead of irate, accusing posts, we get nicely thought-out and worded posts like this one. I think that says a lot.
I feel where you're coming from. The clique lines are kind of hard. That being said, you're gonna have cliques wherever you go.
Let's take an RL example: my parents, who come from large families (my mother with 8 siblings, my father with 6.) even have their own cliques; my dad dodges his gossipy sisters and hangs out with his cousin; my mother spends more time with her sister and they even buy a lot of property together. But they come together when there's a happy occasion, event, death, etc. It's the ability to come together and have fun that makes the server a family; not so much being chums everywhar.
I do think that stronger appreciation towards the playerbase is due, especially with the new intro system added in as an extra step to get to Grunt status. Not in the form of items or gold or levels, and definitely not another user rank, but just words that make people feel good. I'm not a big fan of the vouch system; one could say vouching is a way of appreciation, but I don't get that feeling because I don't believe in the system. I'd derail the thread if I went into detail. The part I do like is that it's a huge compliment to an RPer, and nothing more.
I'd considered doing a peon appreciation day (which, really, would include vouches because that's just how this server works) and a grunt appreciation day (I don't know wtf this would involve but it'd also be cool) to make a more welcome feeling.
Welp, I'll just throw in a few words myself. Personally when I am online (Which seems to cover a fairly broad amount of time zones.) And I do see GMs around. (Nostra, and Sassy mostly, sometimes Qaza and Grak.) They are usually trying to engage in RP in whatever their respective area is. So I think it should be said that when they do get around to being on the server they are usually trying to intermingle with us players. Personally I've found a lot of the GMs to be fun people to talk too, but I can understand where you are coming from with the fear thought. One of the best ways to get to know them is to join one of their guilds. They have a few in differently locations, catering for different people.
I also agree with the new introduction policy. I think it'l do a lot of good when trying to get rid of bad players from ever entering the server in the first place.
I remember reading about a player being expelled for being "too chummy" with GM's. I can see why that is a problem if someone tries to schmooze their way in on GM's in order to befriend them -only- to get special benefits and to have someone on their side in case of drama. That is of course pretty disgusting behaviour, but I admit that I always try to be chummy with everyone, from GM's to players. Simply because I like to have friends. Not the kind of friends that give you stuff or does your laundry, but just the kind of friends you can be happy to see come online. The kind of friends you can chat with about all sorts of things OOC'ly, while keeping up excellent RP IC'ly.
I hope that GM's don't consider people who actually see them as interesting people as suck-ups, especially since that means players might be afraid of roleplaying with GM's. I'm the sort of person who welcomes anyone back ooc'ly, friend or foe. Always ready with a "hey there!" regardless of the status of the player, and having spent time reading through a lot of character profiles, I can say that there's a lot of good characters I am looking forward to meet. Some of those belonging to mods as well.
In short, I'd like us all to be friends. Even if some of you have to keep a certain distance in order to be impartial in the sad cases where someone breaks the rules.
waffenbaum Wrote:I remember reading about a player being expelled for being "too chummy" with GM's.
Just to clear something up, no one has ever been banned for sucking up or getting "too chummy." I may have made it sound like that, and if I did I apologize. When I made mention of this, I was pointing out something that had bothered a lot of the GMs on a personal level, but the player in question was banned for rules regarding respect, maturity, and not knowing when to quit. People can suck up. They will, I know it's fairly inevitable. While I may make a couple snarky comments when it happens, that's not going to get you in trouble in and of itself. What WILL get you in trouble is if you go into creepy-stalker mode and you continue to pester someone even after being asked to stop or an obvious attempt at breaking the conversation, which is what the player in question had gotten on the level of.
Now to address the original post...I'm not exactly sure what we (or at least I) can do that isn't being done already. If someone is "afraid" of me, then I'm inclined to believe they haven't had time to actually watch me work, or they take too much stock into rumors. I have, in the past, let threads directly complaining about myself live on these forums. I might comment and defend myself, but I have never taken action against someone that criticizes how I do things, and if those topics ever got moved it was because Kretol himself believed they went too far. I just do my job, which is to punish those that break the rules. What more can I do? I'm not going to stop issuing punishments, that's my job.
Similarly, ever since the server came back I have only ever directly RPed with a GM once (Kretol, and that was in the presence of other players) and around another GM once more (Sasail, again in the presence of other players.) Every time I've RPed, it's been with or around players who are free to interact with my character, and I've given out several vouches already. Cliques will happen, but I don't think anyone can say that we've only been RPing with each other, because we really haven't (at least I haven't and I can say with some confidence that Sasail hasn't, I don't claim to know Nostra's RP habits as we don't tend to run into each other that often.)
Just a quick comment before getting ready for work - I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned already, but we only place current suspensions under the Suspended Accounts listing.
As far as those banned, perhaps it may be a good idea to split the list of banned accounts from "before WotLK" and "after WotLK". Heh.
To Touchseed: I was a bit confused as to where you were coming from.
I do understand that it can be imposing to have the ban list up, and that there are so many people on it. Being that we've been open for about a year and a half, this list is in my opinion... quite small.
Again, this is -not- the reason that list is up. The reason the list is up so that people cannot have the excuse to rumor mongor over people's bannings. We used to have the list be something discreet, and something only we could see until people started to get snippy with us for banning their friends for what they percieved to be "no reason whatsoever".
Basically, while it may seem like we put it up to scare people, it's just so that people can see we -do- have a standard on which we go by with suspensions and banning.
These standards are the rules, heh.
Hopefully, this puts a bit of perspective on the reasons we do these things.
Rensin Wrote:The reason the list is up so that people cannot have the excuse to rumor mongor over people's bannings. We used to have the list be something discreet, and something only we could see until people started to get snippy with us for banning their friends for what they percieved to be "no reason whatsoever".
It's a "darned if you do, darned if you don't" situation. Have the list down, everyone claims that they're afraid of us because everyone (falsely) tells them that we ban people for no reason. Have it up, now people are saying that it's scary to have a ban list up.
I'm tempted to ask why we even bother anymore. We get painted as the bad guys no matter what we do.
Grakor456 Wrote:Rensin Wrote:The reason the list is up so that people cannot have the excuse to rumor mongor over people's bannings. We used to have the list be something discreet, and something only we could see until people started to get snippy with us for banning their friends for what they percieved to be "no reason whatsoever".
It's a "darned if you do, darned if you don't" situation. Have the list down, everyone claims that they're afraid of us because everyone (falsely) tells them that we ban people for no reason. Have it up, now people are saying that it's scary to have a ban list up.
I'm tempted to ask why we even bother anymore. We get painted as the bad guys no matter what we do.
I dont paint you guys, especially in that color. I personally think you guys do your job very well and I am not scared of you at all. The ban list isnt really all that scary either. Its just a list for people to see why people were banned so they know and/or cant complain about getting banned for no reason.
I think misunderstandings of the GMs are what really make newcomers "afraid" of the GMs. Personally, I really think that these are the ones that have nothing to worry about and that shouldn't feel threatened by their greatness (/endkissassiness) and if it is anyone, it should really be the people who have been here long enough to have caused errors or unintentionally became stereotyped as a bad person.
The only thing I really think should be cleared up with the system, is that if you give someone a warning, at least give examples about what they did wrong. Sometimes the short, cut to the chase answers can be a little unclear and can lead to fear. The exact reason why
I am feeling some sort of fear from doing, well anything that relates to OOC, and sometimes IC.
/shrug
Only my two cents on the matter.
Either way, you GMs do something I dread doing; dealing with large amounts of people.
<33 Cressy
If this post makes no sense at all, I blame me just waking up from my nap.
