Well, first, the Hero system. I didn't really see much point in it, other than the name telling that the person is really excelled at stuff. Meh.
Then, when I saw the part about wiping vouches I sorta went sadfaec. But now, when I think of it, it seems really for the best. Whatever you guys decide it to be, I trust it will be awesome.
Also, just one thing. It's not like anything is keeping anybody from throwing in a "vouch" into the introduction, with no real power, just a way to show people how much did you enjoy playing with them... right? *blink*
This is certainly change that I've fully supported.
This should hopefully help bridge the divide between grunts and peons in a more natural way. Peons won't have to fight to surround themselves with 80's in order to get vouches and the whole process of integrating with the community will become more natural and smooth.
By all means, I'd suggest that you do still post on peoples intro threads and let that player know that you're happy with their performance. That's certainly something I would support because it's nice to be reassured that you're on the right track and that others support what you're doing and it also helps the GM's know that things are going well for that player and whatnot.
I think it's a welcome change that can only bring good things with it!
-Val! <3
Grakor456 Wrote:Grunts are not "cool people." Grunts are not special. Grunts are nothing more than people who have had three other people go "Ehh, they're okay." Nothing more.
My apologies, it seems I've put it wrong. With "cool" I meant "nice". That said, when you see a grunt, you can be pretty sure that he'll always help you. Get the point?
Either way, I'd first like to see this system before I support it. I'm not so sure on it.
Ehh, I probably shouldnt be the one to talk since I havnt been around long enough to really notice elitism at all, but iI certianly noticed the amazing amount of peon flocking to grunts when it came to rp. Which was quite a slice of annoying pie.
I do think its a great Idea if its done correctly. The problems I can forsee have all been mentioned before I got a chance to so I wont even mention them but! I will admit rather solumnly that this is probably the best news Ive heard all month. Reasons being simply that between college, work study, and work, I have maybe a hour between three and four A.M I get at all to be on the server. Not that Im not dedicated to the server but I just had no idea how I was gonna get those vouches. Its really hard to get to know a persons rp flaws and pros in a hour of bar rp.
Of course I just shot myself in the foot with this post but the truth sucks.
I guess I'm going to have to be the one who disagrees, though with the amount of overwhelming support I see in this thread, it really doesn't matter. But I'll have my say anyway.
I'm not going to comment on the Hero system. I didn't really see a point in it, but neither did I see any problems with it. It was just sort of "there". And now it isn't.
The vouching system being eliminated completely is where I disagree. While I do agree that changes have to be made, I believe that eliminating vouches as a whole is a mistake. Seasoned players should have some say in the process of giving Grunt status to newer players. This isn't because I think I'm better than someone who joined a week ago, it's because the seasoned players all (supposedly) know the server well and are here for the top-quality RP that can be found here.
Were there problems with the vouching system? Yes. We all know that. Some people were too loose with their vouches while others refused to vouch at all. These were both serious issues, but I believe they could have been fixed by putting more restrictions on vouches. For one, add a template similar to the Introduction template for writing a vouch, with one of the questions being "How long have you role-played with this person?" The questions and their impact could be hashed out by GMs, but I honestly believe this would have been better than axing vouches entirely.
Furthermore, to me, a vouch was a way to publicly recognize a new player for excellent RP and OOC behavior. I suppose I can and will still write vouches for this reason, until I'm asked to stop. I give vouches to people after having RPd with them for an extended period of time, usually close to a month, and will continue to do so.
As for making the grunt system time-locked, that simply removes the meaning from it. Grunt will simply mean "this person has been around for a while". I've seen peons who've been around for a while, and honestly, there was a reason they didn't have 3 vouches. Though, I suppose this is me being elitist and contributing to the problem.
Lastly, not everyone needs to be a grunt. You don't need to be a grunt to RP. We all know this. I've had some truly amazing RP while I was a peon, both with grunts and with peons. Though, the best RP was with the grunts, because the title did mean something. Or maybe I was just lucky enough to run into the "good" grunts. I don't know. This is probably just me being elitist again. Point is, I've had a lot of fun here as a peon and got addicted to this server quite thoroughly before I got my third vouch.
Anyway, this is just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth - very little at all.
freelight Wrote:For one, add a template similar to the Introduction template for writing a vouch, with one of the questions being "How long have you role-played with this person?" The questions and their impact could be hashed out by GMs, but I honestly believe this would have been better than axing vouches entirely.
This wouldn't do much, because template-ing vouches would mean:
-"Bad grunts" vouch for "their friends" as much, while
-"Good grunts" vouch for the worthy even less, because the amount of worth you need to have in order to become a grunt is not only
-not make mistakes, stand out, get to interact with the grunts, not annoy them while you're at it, but also:
do all that at a high enough level for them to bother filling in a whole form (while "the bad grunts" are throwing out vouches like cookies). The logical thing to do at that point if you want to get grunted is to hunt down the "bad grunts" (Who I'm sure are actually very well intentioned)
freelight Wrote:Furthermore, to me, a vouch was a way to publicly recognize a new player for excellent RP and OOC behavior. I suppose I can and will still write vouches for this reason, until I'm asked to stop. I give vouches to people after having RPd with them for an extended period of time, usually close to a month, and will continue to do so.
As for making the grunt system time-locked, that simply removes the meaning from it. Grunt will simply mean "this person has been around for a while". (...)
Lastly, not everyone needs to be a grunt. You don't need to be a grunt to RP. We all know this. I've had some truly amazing RP while I was a peon, both with grunts and with peons.
It's quite hard to be excellent enough so that the already-formally-recognised-excellent crowd decides that "you're one of us" and it seems that's not exactly what Gruntship was intended for. However,
Because you can indeed RP plenty and fun as a peon.
Because, without vouch-hunting, you weren't going to likely get vouched in two months.
Because the PvE crowd might well stick around for two months with minimal RP.
Because a long RP-time on-server increases your chance of becoming a good RPer even if you weren't to begin with.
I'd strongly support time-locked grunting after a much bigger timeframe of 6 months or more.
Half of a year?
M'boy, that would, quite frankly, silly and maddening to quite a few people. I really doubt I would hang about for that long, just to wait for a little title. Although the levels or the items aren't of much importance, it's the feeling of accomplishment that comes with it. Oh, and the ability to get prestige titles/classes etc.
When you look on down the road, and see '5 more, bucko', most people I know would sigh heavily, and shuffle their feet as they went. With vouches, people would be, or so I would assume, exhilarated. They are a/two third/s of the way there, or have gotten the whole thing! It just makes me feel as if I did something grand when I take a rather noticeable step forwards, rather than hanging around, and doing whatever it is that I do.
Jumping topics slightly; I seem to recall a player here being vouched for three times in quick succession, making an incredible record time-wise.This means, while not being better than the rest of the pack, they are at least a half-decent role player, and a similar person in the OOC realm. I do believe that they should be recognized for it, and the vouches were a great way to do just that. Again, it gives a sense of accomplishment, and may even get the player to do much more for the server in an effort to get the remaining ones.
But, what do I know?
Looking over this post again, I notice that it isn't even close to what I intended to write or make clear, but you'll get what I mean, hopefully.
What happens to those who fail the test to become a grunt?
Excellent changes, it'll add a level of equality to the forums, rather then having ranks depict how 'skilled' you are in certain areas. I have a few questions about it, however, such as what will happen to Prestige classes and those of us still in Peon-Hood?
I support the vouching thing 100%.
It pretty much singled out the good roleplayers from the bad roleplayers, and people who weren't getting vouches would feel bad. If they were trying to get the vouches, that is. Plus, the kiss-assing, for a better word, was more than irritating. Not that anyone's done it to me or anything, but I saw it quite a lot. I've been on the server for a year and two months afterall, heh.
And as for people with doubts about the questionnaire, I have a feeling that it won't be all that simple as just answering a couple of questions like the introduction template. And who knows, it'll probably have the option to be denied if it has to be. But I'm just rambling now, and I'm probably wrong about some points I made. I can't read the GM's mind afterall. That'd be pretty freakin' awesome though.
And davemwow, half a year? That's just crazy. For one there'd be rageposters left right and center, and two I doubt people would wait that long for title, as Blackmage said.
In my eyes, the only surefire way of determining if a player is ready for gruntship or not is by having said player go up for review by the GM staff. By surefire, I mean it's the only way of making sure vouches aren't being thrown around like candy and the only way of making sure the system isn't being abused. A player being gruntified within their first few days on the server is rather ridiculous, and while the player might have deserved it, a few days does not classify them as a veteran. That's just an example of pre-standing grunts being too lenient with vouches.
On the other hand, time on the server does not automatically qualify a player for gruntship. Some people, no matter how much time they spend here, do not improve. And even if they don't, some grunts feel obliged to vouch the player because they've RPed extensively with them and feel that they owe the player, even if the player is not ready for gruntship. All in all, it's good that the vouch system is being eliminated. There were too many flaws as it was.
I said before that the only surefire way to determine if a player is ready for the title is to go up for review by the GM staff. That might seem a little extreme, and could be a bit unnerving for players, but think about it. On a small server like this (I have no doubt the population will start leveling out soon due to the end of summer) being gruntified is a big deal. Someone attaining the title doesn't happen every day, and it should be treated as if it's a special thing. If the GM staff deems a player worthy of the title, that's cause for some celebration - the player is now an established veteran of the server.
With the introduction system as it is now, I'd think the surplus of GMs would be more than capable of handling the task. If it were to happen, it would reestablish the fact that the title of a grunt actually means something, rather than just a little boost to say "Hey, you're an alright RPer. Have a different coloured name and some gear."
Well I suppose it's time for me to come out of the shadows again, and state something completely ununderstandable, anyways, With this system I see flaws and pros, but overall it just depends on the people, like the vouching can become increasingly hard when your on at times when the server is on a low population, and some of the gm's/grunts/people who give vouches have incredibly high standards while we all know many of them don't. I'm just putting in my two cents, but I think we should have a trial run for this. Although i'm a peon I do hve a Healthy brain!
BlackMage Wrote:Jumping topics slightly; I seem to recall a player here being vouched for three times in quick succession, making an incredible record time-wise.This means, while not being better than the rest of the pack, they are at least a half-decent role player, and a similar person in the OOC realm. I do believe that they should be recognized for it, and the vouches were a great way to do just that. Again, it gives a sense of accomplishment, and may even get the player to do much more for the server in an effort to get the remaining ones.
That was me.
Back to the topic at hand, I pretty much agree with how freelight put it. I can understand that the vouch system's flaws, what with some grunts handing out their vouches left and right and others withholding them, but forcing it down to a time frame seems a bit unfair because of the level of skill it seemed to take to get that rank. To me, that's kind of like just sort of taking away from the meaning so people don't get their feelings hurt. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be nice to people, but there's a line between being nice and just being rather ridiculous.
Seeing as I just got my three vouches, I feel rather strongly about the sudden loss of this system, it made sense to me, really. From a peon's perspective it was more of a "coming of age"-ish thing, rather than something that made me rp with only 80's. I just rp'd with whoever and somehow got them all in one night.
But I'm rambling and most likely a lunatic.
MrBubbles Wrote:I said before that the only surefire way to determine if a player is ready for the title is to go up for review by the GM staff. That might seem a little extreme, and could be a bit unnerving for players, but think about it. On a small server like this (I have no doubt the population will start leveling out soon due to the end of summer) being gruntified is a big deal. Someone attaining the title doesn't happen every day, and it should be treated as if it's a special thing. If the GM staff deems a player worthy of the title, that's cause for some celebration - the player is now an established veteran of the server.
With the introduction system as it is now, I'd think the surplus of GMs would be more than capable of handling the task. If it were to happen, it would reestablish the fact that the title of a grunt actually means something, rather than just a little boost to say "Hey, you're an alright RPer. Have a different coloured name and some gear."
I agree with that statement.
Bloodfeud Wrote:Well I suppose it's time for me to come out of the shadows again, and state something completely ununderstandable, anyways, With this system I see flaws and pros, but overall it just depends on the people, like the vouching can become increasingly hard when your on at times when the server is on a low population, and some of the gm's/grunts/people who give vouches have incredibly high standards while we all know many of them don't. I'm just putting in my two cents, but I think we should have a trial run for this. Although i'm a peon I do hve a Healthy brain!
That one too. A dry run of the timed grunting system might help.
Time for my opinion..
Now I actually agree with this, first off it's not as bad as some of you seem to think it is. Someone who has been here for the period of two months and has been active deserves to be one of the veterans, after all grunt is just code name for veteran. Getting rid of the hero thing was a decision that won't have that much effect on the community overall, I can see some of the active hero's becoming trial GM's at some point in time, after all they were the "top gun" so to speak and earned that title fair and square.
My overall rating on the decision - 10/10. I'd like to see someone else come up with a better and more fairer way to do things, which isn't likely.
Agreed just like everyone who has posted so far. I think. Peons RPing with fellow peons or lack thereof has been a constant problem around.
Question though...as for Gruntship being made a time period, 1 or two months....what if that certain player decides to wait out his 'proving' month and be inactive and just go active when he/she becomes grunt? As I am sure the definition of being a grunt is being reviewed, I throw this question anyway, since I and others probably need a cool update.