Conquest of the Horde

A lot of players on CotH, I've noticed, are concerned with the RP quality of both Grunts and Peons. Now, with the new plan that keeps Peons around as Peons for a very long time, we're faced with a lot of new players whose RP may not be up to par with the rest of us. Seeing as introductions aren't screened and anyone can play on the server until they're kicked off, we have a good amount of below-average RPers running around, to put it bluntly. I hear that you can take screenshots of poor RP and turn them in to GMs if it bothers you, but--why ban an otherwise good player, when you can just take the initiative to teach them yourself? Most people are sensible. If you approach them in the right way, they'll listen to you and accept what you say--and they might just change their ways.

But some days, you can just rub people the wrong way--maybe you say something a little too harshly and they take offense, maybe they've just been having a bad day themselves. There's any number of things that can go wrong with correcting people on the fly, just because everyone has something they can improve on. No one needs to start internet fights, but the lack of active correction of lower levels of RP bothers me.

No one will get better if they keep doing the same thing they've been doing.

That goes for every single person on this server, be it me, a Peon, any other Grunt or GM. We are not going to get better if we don't think about what we're doing and what we can improve on--and then try. Unfortunately, not everyone tries--and not everyone knows what they're doing wrong. We don't always see when we're screwing up, and it takes other people to encourage us to work on our skills. So, here's the thing:

GMs deal with "problem RP." Godmoders that have been asked to stop and refuse. Mary Sues that ragequit when you tell them their character is being denied. People who are too lazy to type on a recognizable level. This is fine and dandy, because as a general rule these people are kicked because of OOC behavior rather than what's going on IC. What the GMs don't deal with are the mediocre RPers. These ones probably shined at one point, enough to make it past Gruntship--as I've seen a few around.

Hey, Moose! What gives you the right to call someone else mediocre!? You're hardly a Grunt yourself!

That's exactly the attitude that keeps RP quality from going up and moving forward. I consider myself an above-average RPer, but that doesn't mean I think I know everything there possibly is to know about RP. I always have something to learn. The above is what I've heard from people on live in the past when others gently try to correct them, and what I see on CotH every now and then coming from players that don't appreciate our efforts. This is because we're trying to correct others in the wrong situation.

People will only listen to criticism if it's given in a constructive, helpful manner that clearly outlines what they're doing wrong and what they can do to improve. Unfortunately, most of the criticism I've seen in the past consists of "Hey, man, don't do that. That's stupid" and "Well, you should really add more to your profile . . . add more to everything." But again, this criticism all goes to poor RP. We don't tackle mediocre RP like we should because it's passable. You can get away with proper grammar and a decent character, but your RP may be bland as all of it's in /say. So here's my little mantra.

Writing is part of roleplaying.

Writing is a /huge/ part of roleplaying. You can't RP without writing something out, and writing is what makes your RP shine. If you don't describe your character's actions, you miss out. If your character does the same thing in every post, you miss out. You could do so much if you paid attention to their surroundings and what their mannerisms are like. It gives your character an added layer of personality and realism if you start telling a story rather than acting it out. Pay attention the next time you read a good book--the characters don't just stand around talking. It is /not/ straight dialogue. Your RP shouldn't be, either.

Now, all this rambling and I haven't even gotten to the suggestion part. Well, here goes: we should have a guild devoted to developing characters, offering feedback on RP and providing resources to players that aren't always able to seek them out themselves. I am not suggesting that we form a guild that goes around telling everyone what to do--I think it would be a good idea to have a guild that mixes OOC and IC to help improve the RP quality of /everyone/ on the server.

Because everything on CotH is in character, and having an OOC guild amidst the IC ones would be not only disconcerting but also frustrating for the players in the OOC guild, I suggest we set up a human theater troupe. Veterans* of the server and good RPers in general would run the guild and set up events, workshops, one-on-one RPs with other members--that sort of thing. And everyone else would be there to learn--you join the guild because you want to get better and we help you on your way in a positive, constructive environment.

A guild like this would benefit CotH in a number of ways. It would help to break down barriers between new players and older, more experienced ones. It would introduce new ways of thinking to the community--look, analyze, be critical but fair about what you're doing. And best of all, RP /will/ improve if people take an interest in the guild. Everyone has something to learn, and even the people teaching will find their RP improving over time if they really devote themselves. I guarantee you, it will happen.

And everyone, I know what you're thinking: "I'm not a bad RPer! I don't need this guild!" If you think that, then how about you try helping other RPers out? And you know, if you're not willing to do that, ask yourself why--are they a hopeless cause, or is it you? Are you just not admitting to yourself that you, too, have a long way to go before you reach the top? I point absolutely no fingers here, but everyone can swallow their pride. The first step is acknowledging that your RP is not as good as it could be. This guild is meant to help /you/, and the only way it can do that is if you own up to your faults like everyone else. Please, take a look at what you post the next time you RP and ask yourself--are you really, truly thinking about what you type? Are you playing a fully developed, realistic character with a good mixture of strengths and faults? Is it unique, different and fresh? Do other players enjoy your RP? Do /you/ enjoy your RP? Do you post emotes that other players can act on, or do you make it difficult for the other party to move the RP along? Do you actively participate in the RP regardless of how many people are inside it? If not, then you're not "too good" for this guild. And if you are, you ought to get in here and bring others up to par with your own RP.

You might be wondering why I suggest a theatre troupe for the in-game guild. My theory is simple: if people don't have adequate representations of a scene, they will fill in the details themselves. If we all roll human actors, then we have the opportunity to play a variety of "throw-away" characters. Not only do we have to suspend disbelief and use our imagination instead of relying on the game to do that for us, we can sit down and test out an idea without devoting a whole character to it that we may not like. For example, maybe we all want to play orcs--instead of rolling three or four orcs that get abandoned two days later, we could set up a skeleton skit or improv and have our actors play the part--assuming they're all good actors, we get to experience what it would be like to be an orc. Essentially, a theater company would remove the reliance we have on graphics--there are no graphics in books. In books, everything was typed out. Text RPs had to be typed out; you couldn't just press 'X' and see your character sit down, you had to type it out. You couldn't just walk out the room. You had to pay attention to what you were doing and give your character flavor. You couldn't just see that it was raining. You had to establish beforehand that it's raining outside, and have your character react accordingly. Perhaps, if we put ourselves in an environment that urges us to fill in the details, it will promote doing so in the rest of our RPs as well.

So, would anyone be interested in trying something like this? I don't care if you're a good RPer or a not-so-good RPer; while I'd definitely love for some of the more seasoned RPers to take an interest and help me iron out the details, what really matters is the rest of you giving it a try. Remember: just because you can churn out a few good emotes doesn't mean you have nothing to learn, and even if your RP is passable it can always get better.



*I don't claim to be a veteran by any means, but I'd still love to help coordinate and/or run the guild as I have a good amount of spare time. I really want to see this happen.

I don't consider myself an above averege roleplayer, but I consider myself 'up there'. I would be glad to seek both help and give help in this group. Yes, you just explained all I had on my mind, amplified by nine thousand.


I am 100% for this idea. And I came to this realization today, when I was playing DoTA and everybody was yelling at me. Yes, I was new..I didn't know any better. But neither do they.

Moose, you have my axe.

The Bloodsworn Honorguard and the Ebon Inquisition will work with any new players; but they should try and understand the format of roleplay in their respective factions/guilds' ideals and the like.

I am actually a fan of theater RP, due to it's flexibility, because in a theater RP, you're not actually limited to one character, or type all the time ICly. In a theater there are different roles the actor can partake, even a human, could in a sense, RP an orc ICly. As well as set up situations that don't require on the fly RP choices, restricted by your character ICly, it's scripted. I just think, it offers a good chance to step into many many different types or RP, without making a character, story, and such for each one you feel like trying.

I am a peon, but I would like to join, help and learn I hope


and

'Writing is a /huge/ part of roleplaying. You can't RP without writing something out, and writing is what makes your RP shine. If you don't describe your character's actions, you miss out. If your character does the same thing in every post, you miss out. You could do so much if you paid attention to their surroundings and what their mannerisms are like. It gives your character an added layer of personality and realism if you start telling a story rather than acting it out. Pay attention the next time you read a good book--the characters don't just stand around talking. It is /not/ straight dialogue. Your RP shouldn't be, either.'


I <3 it

I love being chastised as much as the next guy over things people do more often than you must be looking, but let me just pick this apart so I don't write a massive entry over it.

Moose Wrote:A lot of players on CotH, I've noticed, are concerned with the RP quality of both Grunts and Peons. Now, with the new plan that keeps Peons around as Peons for a very long time, we're faced with a lot of new players whose RP may not be up to par with the rest of us. Seeing as introductions aren't screened and anyone can play on the server until they're kicked off, we have a good amount of below-average RPers running around, to put it bluntly. I hear that you can take screenshots of poor RP and turn them in to GMs if it bothers you, but--why ban an otherwise good player, when you can just take the initiative to teach them yourself? Most people are sensible. If you approach them in the right way, they'll listen to you and accept what you say--and they might just change their ways.

But some days, you can just rub people the wrong way--maybe you say something a little too harshly and they take offense, maybe they've just been having a bad day themselves. There's any number of things that can go wrong with correcting people on the fly, just because everyone has something they can improve on. No one needs to start internet fights, but the lack of active correction of lower levels of RP bothers me.

No one will get better if they keep doing the same thing they've been doing.

Primarily, people DO constantly try to help the less literate over mistakes they make. Simply because you are not there to see it happen does not mean it doesn't happen, that's like saying a tree isn't there or a sign switches languages when you don't look at it. I've seen alot, ALOT, of people correct others, and primarily it seems the reason nobody else sees it, is simply because it happens in /1 or a PM to avoid a mass server visual of someone telling another to become better. To reiterate, a tree is still there when you're not looking at it, as corrections happen whether they're in a wide public channel or no.

Moose Wrote:That goes for every single person on this server, be it me, a Peon, any other Grunt or GM. We are not going to get better if we don't think about what we're doing and what we can improve on--and then try. Unfortunately, not everyone tries--and not everyone knows what they're doing wrong. We don't always see when we're screwing up, and it takes other people to encourage us to work on our skills. So, here's the thing:

GMs deal with "problem RP." Godmoders that have been asked to stop and refuse. Mary Sues that ragequit when you tell them their character is being denied. People who are too lazy to type on a recognizable level. This is fine and dandy, because as a general rule these people are kicked because of OOC behavior rather than what's going on IC. What the GMs don't deal with are the mediocre RPers. These ones probably shined at one point, enough to make it past Gruntship--as I've seen a few around.

Hey, Moose! What gives you the right to call someone else mediocre!? You're hardly a Grunt yourself!

That's exactly the attitude that keeps RP quality from going up and moving forward. I consider myself an above-average RPer, but that doesn't mean I think I know everything there possibly is to know about RP. I always have something to learn. The above is what I've heard from people on live in the past when others gently try to correct them, and what I see on CotH every now and then coming from players that don't appreciate our efforts. This is because we're trying to correct others in the wrong situation.

People will only listen to criticism if it's given in a constructive, helpful manner that clearly outlines what they're doing wrong and what they can do to improve. Unfortunately, most of the criticism I've seen in the past consists of "Hey, man, don't do that. That's stupid" and "Well, you should really add more to your profile . . . add more to everything." But again, this criticism all goes to poor RP. We don't tackle mediocre RP like we should because it's passable. You can get away with proper grammar and a decent character, but your RP may be bland as all of it's in /say. So here's my little mantra.

Writing is part of roleplaying.

As vicarious as you may be, that does not mean you are omnipresent throughout the server and every RP that goes on. How do you know that almost no one stops to help a less literate player out? Can you read every pm, every Local chat through the realm? The answer, is no. Correcting someone is best done in PM, and it is usually done in PM in the first place. The GM's shouldn't and specifically won't kick someone for being bland an unexciting RPer, someone who doesn't write in intricate, Shakespearian dramatic passages in /e, but rather stops for a nice chat in /s. There is no reason to go after players that aren't as vivaciously extravagant as you are scouting for. It's unfortunate, yes, but that's not the way it should go down. If I received criticism over how i'm not being overtly exciting, constructive or no, i'm going to flat out ignore it. Sure, not everyone is as abhorrently descriptive, but when i'm sitting down with somone, face to face, I can't sit there and give an emotion for every single time I blink or shift my legs to an inch without it becoming doldrum and bland. Sure, there might be a quick '/e nods, saying "There's no...' However, in the end it boils down to alot of talking, unless your fighting, and even then it doesn't have to be two paragraphs of work.

Moose Wrote:Writing is a /huge/ part of roleplaying. You can't RP without writing something out, and writing is what makes your RP shine. If you don't describe your character's actions, you miss out. If your character does the same thing in every post, you miss out. You could do so much if you paid attention to their surroundings and what their mannerisms are like. It gives your character an added layer of personality and realism if you start telling a story rather than acting it out. Pay attention the next time you read a good book--the characters don't just stand around talking. It is /not/ straight dialogue. Your RP shouldn't be, either.

So what are you going to do about people being bland? Tug on the GM's skirts and tell them to do something about the person who doesn't go into lengthy detail and description about what they are doing? Sure, it's not GREAT RP OH MY GOD BLEW MY MIND INTO THE SKY type, but it does the job. Roleplaying variates from person to person, some find solace in tranquility, others find a happy medium between full, hardcore description with little in /s, others find a rush in momentous action. It's not up to the players to correct them on being bland if they are so inclined to be that way in the first place.

Moose Wrote:Now, all this rambling and I haven't even gotten to the suggestion part. Well, here goes: we should have a guild devoted to developing characters, offering feedback on RP and providing resources to players that aren't always able to seek them out themselves. I am not suggesting that we form a guild that goes around telling everyone what to do--I think it would be a good idea to have a guild that mixes OOC and IC to help improve the RP quality of /everyone/ on the server.

Because everything on CotH is in character, and having an OOC guild amidst the IC ones would be not only disconcerting but also frustrating for the players in the OOC guild, I suggest we set up a human theater troupe. Veterans* of the server and good RPers in general would run the guild and set up events, workshops, one-on-one RPs with other members--that sort of thing. And everyone else would be there to learn--you join the guild because you want to get better and we help you on your way in a positive, constructive environment.

A guild like this would benefit CotH in a number of ways. It would help to break down barriers between new players and older, more experienced ones. It would introduce new ways of thinking to the community--look, analyze, be critical but fair about what you're doing. And best of all, RP /will/ improve if people take an interest in the guild. Everyone has something to learn, and even the people teaching will find their RP improving over time if they really devote themselves. I guarantee you, it will happen.

To continue my iteration of correcting how a player RPs if they are not breaking a rule, why make a guild on enforcing people to be more dramatic and descriptive of everything they do? We make events, and we have in the past, to help new players along with everything they do. That's great if you want to try and help people, but it's fixing what isn't broken, just making it shine a little more. It's difficult whenever something doesn't care enough to shine, because that's perfectly fine. I don't mind RPing with someone simply through /s, it's happened before and it will continue to happen whether you try and organize a guild to help people be more literate than they are now. Some players simply don't speak English as a first language, and can't get into this motif of lengthy, adjective heavy descriptions. We're not here to boss people around into making novels between a group of people, we're here to make sure they're at least being grammatically correct.

Moose Wrote:And everyone, I know what you're thinking: "I'm not a bad RPer! I don't need this guild!" If you think that, then how about you try helping other RPers out? And you know, if you're not willing to do that, ask yourself why--are they a hopeless cause, or is it you? Are you just not admitting to yourself that you, too, have a long way to go before you reach the top? I point absolutely no fingers here, but everyone can swallow their pride. The first step is acknowledging that your RP is not as good as it could be. This guild is meant to help /you/, and the only way it can do that is if you own up to your faults like everyone else. Please, take a look at what you post the next time you RP and ask yourself--are you really, truly thinking about what you type? Are you playing a fully developed, realistic character with a good mixture of strengths and faults? Is it unique, different and fresh? Do other players enjoy your RP? Do /you/ enjoy your RP? Do you post emotes that other players can act on, or do you make it difficult for the other party to move the RP along? Do you actively participate in the RP regardless of how many people are inside it? If not, then you're not "too good" for this guild. And if you are, you ought to get in here and bring others up to par with your own RP.

We DO try and help them out, bit by bit. A person doesn't learn good character skills by being templated and conformed to what someone else thinks, they learn it through experience and time. Shaping and modeling someone to be better with as little time as possible could work for a very small group, but orchestrating such a way to mass conform the players to be thinking at a higher level of general literal execution with their every word would be deathly hard, if nigh impossible. Everyone's first character usually ends up being bad, it's -natural.- Not all of us have 10 years of RPing experience under our apparently high and pompous belts as you seem to make out the people who you think that they think that they're 'too good' for any help. People learn from experience, through trial and fault.

Moose Wrote:You might be wondering why I suggest a theatre troupe for the in-game guild. My theory is simple: if people don't have adequate representations of a scene, they will fill in the details themselves. If we all roll human actors, then we have the opportunity to play a variety of "throw-away" characters. Not only do we have to suspend disbelief and use our imagination instead of relying on the game to do that for us, we can sit down and test out an idea without devoting a whole character to it that we may not like. For example, maybe we all want to play orcs--instead of rolling three or four orcs that get abandoned two days later, we could set up a skeleton skit or improv and have our actors play the part--assuming they're all good actors, we get to experience what it would be like to be an orc. Essentially, a theater company would remove the reliance we have on graphics--there are no graphics in books. In books, everything was typed out. Text RPs had to be typed out; you couldn't just press 'X' and see your character sit down, you had to type it out. You couldn't just walk out the room. You had to pay attention to what you were doing and give your character flavor. You couldn't just see that it was raining. You had to establish beforehand that it's raining outside, and have your character react accordingly. Perhaps, if we put ourselves in an environment that urges us to fill in the details, it will promote doing so in the rest of our RPs as well.

Actors to better themselves? Having people awkwardly stand in front of a group of others who render themselves 'holier-than-thou' and RP out orcs with their Night Elf's? I can't predict characters doing this without the visual setting, the feeling and the all around immersion into the game. This is what changes it all. Player immersion. A skeleton improvisation of a scene would wreck immersion, but still be possible. Why not just have players roll orcs simply for that skeleton skit? Rolling a character doesn't mean you MUST STICK WITH IT NO RETURNS for the rest of your roleplaying career.

Now for the graphical vs text RP.

Text RP is something i've had a lot of experience with, years and years going on, and I understand where you're coming from on this. I've typed out every action, emotion and setting a thousand times over, but this is a new system. Graphical RP such as this was brand new to me with COTH, I hadn't even glanced at the RP servers on Retail. I get COTH and it's ridiculously new, it's a change of concept. Now, if you're walking along with your character visually, would you type out, 'Vakari walks forward at the same speed for the remainder of her walk to the Ratchet Arena.'? The answer, i'm afraid, is no. You sure as hell can if you are so inclined, and i've done this before. Every stand, brush off of pants, head raise, eye contact, turn and face blush, it's happened through text even with graphical enhancements. Does that mean everyone has to do it because you do? No, unfortunately. If you wish to attempt to have people better themselves through any mean you see fit, be my guest. However do I see everyone adhering to it? No. Not everyone wishes to type out what they're tangent-visual avatar is doing, and not everyone has to do it. Mostly where this is coming from is the 'GM's don't deal with mediocre RP' segment. Does this mean that it's the communities uphold? That's debatable, but I personally see it as, well, a personal subjunctive.

Roughly, what i'm trying to say, isn't supposed to just shoot you down and say 'No, you can't do this, you idiot.' It's more of that I honestly don't see this going well, pushing players down, telling them where to stand and how much immersion detail to put in just is beyond human nature. The alternate, as you seemed to shift away from in your speech to the server, is giving them a gentle push in the right direction and making sure they are keeping there eyes open to the players who are immersed in character and playing them well, so that they may better themselves, not us bettering them for them. I'm honestly not trying to shoot you down, and despite what i've had to say i'd honestly 100% like to see this in action, and would willingly help if the end results are actually showing an increase. It is but mere speculation, stranger, that people don't like to be forced, and would much rather learn through experience, time and immersion.

Brutalskars Wrote:The Bloodsworn Honorguard and the Ebon Inquisition will work with any new players; but they should try and understand the format of roleplay in their respective factions/guilds' ideals and the like.

I know what you mean about getting experience with the real she-bang, but this post isn't just about players new to the server. If it came off like that, I'm sorry, but this is about people like you and me as well--we are not the best RPers out there, just like not every Peon is that great. Everyone can and should try to improve; just because you can pass your test doesn't mean you have nothing more to learn.

Ideally, the guild would introduce players old and new alike to different styles of RP in a setting where they could discover what they like or want to learn more about, while still upholding the basics of character creation. No one here is above learning more. No one has RPed every single thing out there. /No one/ is perfect just because they're a Grunt. If you want to work with new players that's perfectly fine, but I'd like to see everyone benefit from a little community work.

On the subject of immersion, Anski's post has caused me to reconsider my opinions about how the guild would handle the RP itself, as you can see below. In short, I'm open to any and all suggestions for what could/should go on in the guild, how it should be organized and any alternatives whatsoever--the theater is just a placeholder.

---

Now then, to Anski (who I'll avoid quoting for the sake of size).

I totally see what you're saying about my not having been there, and appreciate you for bringing this to my attention. I haven't been on the server that long and am only speaking from what I have seen. This isn't that much, and while I didn't consider it at first now that you mention it--my opinion remains the same. While we may be kindly correcting people via PMs and whispers, how in-depth do we really go? I think that it could benefit a lot of people if there were some sort of mentoring going on. And what is this, but a thinly veiled suggestion that we start teaching each other what we've learned so that we can help to develop a more knowledgable community?

As for the detail in RP, it's definitely personal preference for who likes what. I'll admit that I was definitely thinking of how I like to RP when writing this, and didn't consider that not everyone wants to RP in that manner. For me, an ideal graphic setting differs from everyone else's--that's why I want this to be a group project. There have been a lot of people, I've noticed, complaining on the forums about how the server's not what it used to be--even the GMs have acknowledged it, what with the new system and all. I don't know what the server used to be like, but there are those out there who have. I ask for their help in this, so it's not just me deciding what's right and what's wrong in RP. Give players new ideas to mull around in their head and decide for themselves. We all have experts on one subject or another; if they came together, we could easily come out with fuller, more developed and interesting characters with a little guidance from said experts.

I'd like to think that the guild would be completely voluntary and up to everyone who would like to participate to do so. I also don't expect that many people to be interested in learning, merely as a matter of pride--maybe it will open up to more people later. Who knows? If you want to keep your RP the way it is, that's perfectly fine--go ahead and do something else with your time. No one's stopping you. I just speak out because I have standards of RP that entertains me, and it's a bit higher than, say, what you describe. For one thing, I'm a voracious alt-tabber: I /need/ people to type out what they're doing physically in-game or else I get confused ("Where'd you go?" "Oh, I walked away.").

As for the matter of what the guild itself is actually composed of, it doesn't /matter./ A guild would be useful to help identify who wants help and who can be openly approached and asked, that sort of thing--but really, it doesn't need to happen. I just suggest that they roll an extra character to keep in there and communicate with the guild so that their main characters stick around in the more IC-oriented guilds that they should be in; there's nothing saying the guild couldn't hop off and roll temporary orcs to get a feel for how they're played. It's a placeholder solution and I'd gladly take anyone else's ideas into consideration.

I would love to see a community effort here to have us all try different styles of RP. Over the years we've each developed our own preferences--why not share them with others? It never hurts to do something you're not used to; I could go for a few sessions of less detailed RP than what I've been doing lately myself. You bring a valid point when you mention that people don't want to be pushed around or told what to do, as that really would drive people away--but there is a difference between telling someone "there's only one way to do this and it's not the way you're doing it." Honestly, people can RP any way they like--it's their server too. But I know that some people out there want to get better. Here's a way we can help them directly, rather than let them flounder for the years it took us to get to where we are now.

---

Regardless, thanks to all of you for the input and I'll look into this more tomorrow. The more people who would like to try this, the better, and the ideas behind this are all OOC--what's in character could be changed with ease. What's important is that we focus on communicating with each other and reaching a hand out to those who openly want to improve.

I thought this was nice, until you said

Quote:I just speak out because I have standards of RP that entertains me, and it's a bit higher than, say, what you describe. For one thing, I'm a voracious alt-tabber: I /need/ people to type out what they're doing physically in-game or else I get confused ("Where'd you go?" "Oh, I walked away.").

This kills the whole thing, in my opinion. These two lines successfully shifted my view on this whole thread from "We'll help better the rp quality for all" to "I need this, I want this, I'm doing this."

You had me for a while, but I now see this as shaping people into what you want, and not shaping yourself into what fits for the whole.

This is just how I see it, and you are free to ignore it.

"TLR"
Yep, that's the attitude of the poor RPers. Although I read a little part myself, for I am in a hurry. Otherwise, most things you say make sense, but how many times you keep repeating it, these "noobs" won't listen nor read. Yet, like Nubstra said, you can't shape people, you can only help people to shape themselves correctly.

And believe me, there are people that don't want to change, and in my opinion, are not fit for the server and should be /kick'd. Then there are the people that do it all wrong but are willing to change, these should be extended a helping hand. I have helped several of these people, and it was actually fun to do. Be it helping with grammar and spelling, be it helping people with racial lore, anything.

My few cents, although they may not have made sense and are quite repetitive.

edit: Did I say Nubstra? I meant Ickey Mickey.

You can help people out as much as you want, but the fact of the matter is, if they continually refuse to use punctuation, grammar, spelling, anything, I can and will refuse to RP with them. These things generally cannot be taught to people who don't care enough to do it. Believe me, I've tried; to be quite honest, I don't want to have to waste all of -my- time trying to teach kids things they should have learned in elementary/middle/junior/high school. I really don't come on here to play teacher (though I totally have a character who is one), when I choose to log on, I want to RP. I know, this is exactly what you are trying to prove we do, but I seriously do not want to waste the (little) amount of time I am on the server to help kids who do not want to be helped. And creativity cannot be taught. You can try all you want, but it is something you have or you don't.

Now..!

Moose Wrote:Writing is a /huge/ part of roleplaying. You can't RP without writing something out, and writing is what makes your RP shine. If you don't describe your character's actions, you miss out. If your character does the same thing in every post, you miss out. You could do so much if you paid attention to their surroundings and what their mannerisms are like. It gives your character an added layer of personality and realism if you start telling a story rather than acting it out. Pay attention the next time you read a good book--the characters don't just stand around talking. It is /not/ straight dialogue. Your RP shouldn't be, either.

Anksi Wrote:So what are you going to do about people being bland? Tug on the GM's skirts and tell them to do something about the person who doesn't go into lengthy detail and description about what they are doing? Sure, it's not GREAT RP OH MY GOD BLEW MY MIND INTO THE SKY type, but it does the job. Roleplaying variates from person to person, some find solace in tranquility, others find a happy medium between full, hardcore description with little in /s, others find a rush in momentous action. It's not up to the players to correct them on being bland if they are so inclined to be that way in the first place.

This is the truth. If I have to wait five minutes for someone to type out a complete thought in slashe...I won't wait for you. Believe me, I have the attention span of a frickin' squirrel, and I think that overly written emotes are unneeded. I understand if something epic happened...

Cressy bends over, a large phoenix shoots out of her arse ripping her body to shreds as it ascends out into the beautiful cloudless sky. Her body falls over lifeless; bloody and unable to be fixed, the crowd looks on in utter shock, not knowing what to do. After a few moments the phoenix descends, Cressy riding upon it's back. "Yeah, told you I could do it."

...I lawled as I tried to write that, but you get my point. If you have to read something lengthy just to understand that I had a sip of my wine, then seriously...I won't mind if you walk away. Hell, if you start writing multiple paragraphs in RP with me, I probably will leave -you-.

Yeah. But back on to the topic.


Things to remember:
1. You teach people to be creative and spell correctly, while I have fun RPing.
2. I do know I am an ass and that I come off as one.
3. Don't assume that people haven't tried; but when people have tried and nothing happens, then obviously they don't give a shit.
4. Don't write long emotes with Cressy. I probably will get bored and walk away (from you or the computer).
5. Don't take a bajillion minutes to write two sentences.
6. Yeah. Ta-da.

Off-Topic.

Cressy- That is the single most awesome thing I have ever read in my entire life.

On-Topic.

I agree with Cressy, I can't stand people who can't help themselves first before other people help them... I mean, I can understand the typo that's fixed right away like.

Alex: Oh Hey, What's up? I'm just chilsalkds here in goldshire..
Alex: I mean Chillin** my bad

I'm no strictler for grammar or spelling, since I suck the big one at both ,even though english is my first language.

But when its like.

Alex: Oh Hai! I'm leik new her lol ani ruleplays?

And no fixes to the typos I'm automatically put that person on ignore at all costs. It's not that I think that person is a bad person, just not anyone I would want to roleplay with, of course, if the person typed like that, they wouldn't be on this server... period.

I've got the time, so I figured I'll try my hand at this one.

I've been involved with something called a MUD for several years now. Multi-User Dungeons are without a doubt the precursor to contemporary graphical MMO's- a completely text-based online environment.

Now, the particular MUD I partake in stands out among other MUD's in the same way this one does, namely, it is fully and totally focused on Roleplaying. In fact, it is MORE focused than even CotH- there is, for instance, only one way of in-game OOC, and it is rarely used.

Likewise, this MUD holds itself to a very high standard of play. People are expected to be competent roleplayers; creatively, grammatically, etc.

It is relevant here because it is a text-based medium, and from what I see, that's what's on the table right now. We are a graphical medium, here, yet much of our RPing is conducted in /say and /emote.

The MUD I play is undoubtedly good at what it does. And the trick is this- there is no newbie guild. There is no railroading of new people to this or that in order to get them to learn. EVERYONE in the MUD pitches in, on meeting a new player. It is that simple. If you meet a new player, you RP with that player. That player learns.

Monkey see, monkey do.

This is not a bad idea. For a guild. But I cannot endorse it as a way to teach people how to RP.

Sidenote: The MUD is called Shadows of Isildur. Tolkien faithful, to the nth degree. We always like new people.

While I am very new and by all mean not seeing myself as a -good- writer , how end i liked it to change it just a little better. Then i can agree to a few thing i read here and then again disagree. Without meaning this to step on toes then it this topic kinda give the feeling "I want every person to be able to write Shakespeare like"

To be able to write well make it easier for everyone to read and follow through what happen , it can make a story far more catching and enjoyable to follow but i also feel by reading this that a single thing is forgotten here .That very good writing do in some way not really mean it equal good roleplaying.

We all likely have a small different idea what good Roleplaying actualy is but i think we can agree if we say in the base of it ; It to stay In Character and act and react as the character. What help would it be if a person write in a beautiful way if the character basic ignore what going on around it ?

Most people who like to roleplay do tend to try and write in acceptable and more important a readable level , even if it short or long sentence.

Ob3y Wrote:Alex: Oh Hey, What's up? I'm just chilsalkds here in goldshire..
Alex: I mean Chillin** my bad

This is most normal thing to see , someone editing a typo/mistake if their notice it (people can get distracted)

Ob3y Wrote:Alex: Oh Hai! I'm leik new her lol ani ruleplays?

Okay that one make it extreme hard to understand and read , atlest i can say it extreme rare i see such case as this although ofcourse i cant say what other people had experienced there .

Hehe. I rarely see people talk like that here, Star. I think this is more towards the quality of everything else, then just grammar.

Though I can agree with some parts here, perhaps such things could and should be held off until a later date. I'm not saying this doesn't deserve to be here now, but I am sure it'll be adressed eventually, as CotH is making some changes for the better. It'll hopefully fix that problem.

Quote:There have been a lot of people, I've noticed, complaining on the forums about how the server's not what it used to be--even the GMs have acknowledged it, what with the new system and all.

I've heard this a few times too, said it myself a few times too. But something to keep in mind is that people tend to only remember the best parts, I remember a lot of cool, awesome stuff from before WotLK and way back. Infiltrating lovey-dovey guilds, intrigues and schemes against old nemesi and the fun at the Duskwood crypt with old Avidus. But I also remember all the random nubs who found themselves in a graveyard filled with undead and, for some unkown reason, decided to take hike into one of the Crypts. That this happened literally every day, some times more than that, didn't make it any more enjoyable. Then there were Blood Elves in Ironforge, Undead in Goldshire, telepatic Night Elves running around in Elwynn and... a whole lot of other `great stuff´.

Sure, there was a lot of coolio things that happened, experiences that we've had and friends gained in ages past- but we shouldn't be like those old guys sittin' around saying that it was better back in the days, because for the most part it wasn't.

Just thought I should add that, even though it's a bit off topic.