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Argus Wash-Up
#16
Quote:Not to seem rude or contradictory (and with all due respect, ect.) but yes, they are. A flat character is a bad thing by its very nature, unless meant as simply a background piece to emphasize the depth of more important ones--and even then, I'd argue that it's a clumsy tool.

Um, no, they're not? Flat characters can fulfill a myriad of roles that three dimensional characters can not. A flat character simply means they do not have hidden depths, and what you see is what you get. This is not bad, so long as you know how to use it. Flat characters bring about the more fun side of doing things, were focus is on the events they bring about rather than why they did it in the first place. You don't have to worry about the DEEP HIDDEN LEVELS of their psyche, you just have fun with them. Not every character can afford some deep meaningful reasoning behind why they do what they do. And honestly? In real life, most people are shallow, vapid, and lack depth as well. There are people out there who are just big fat jerks for little reason other than it makes them feel good, or they feel obligated to such "authority" over others.

Anyway, on the subject of Fel VS Arcane, do remember that the Fel is the most powerful form of arcane. Yeah it's evil and gives you horns and wings, but it has much more potential than standard arcane. Heck, fel practically lets you do whatever you want, as long as you bow to the Legion while doing it. Perhaps what the post-restart Marianna needs is a STORY ARC that will detail what brings her to the fel.

I'm giving a lot of input for a character/guild I never RPed with.
Your stories will always remain...
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... as will your valiant hearts.
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#17
It really doesn't, though. Arcane lets you teleport, cast illusions, conjure materials, blink, abjurate, slowfall, and many other unique utility spells of a subtle nature. Fel allows you to blow things up. It's the tool of the violent, of the impatient, of the tactless. It also tends to drive one mad.

CotH already has generic one-dimensional villains who do things for the evulz; Marianna was this before and the time her character truly shone was when she...wasn't.
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#18
I like the idea of the Bisen Family or House Bisen or Action 1 if you will, the Argus Wake was rather interesting and created a good deal of RP, I personally enjoyed how it funded a dead girl to walk around and sell narcotics and the sort to everyone, but it didn't seem to go along with the whole dismantling world governments or the typical demon thing of "We're demons and we want to kill all of you painfully and slowly now listen to us maniacally laugh" thing, which is a generalization but you get the gist of what I'm saying.
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#19
The more I think about it the more I am drawn to the idea of combining the two into a third option: A family that's striving to protect themselves and, in the process, does some of the most wretched and horrible things.

It'll combine strong, plot-driven interactions with the villainy and madness that people seem to be so fond of.

Also, on the topic of 'What I want': People are probably reading too much into this, but I like -both- aspects. So long as I get to do evil my way (Which I always do) then I'm happy with whatever medium we eventually decide to do.
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#20
I'll do my best to help by being obnoxious.
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#21
(11-01-2011, 05:08 PM)hiddengecko Wrote: It really doesn't, though. Arcane lets you teleport, cast illusions, conjure materials, blink, abjurate, slowfall, and many other unique utility spells of a subtle nature. Fel allows you to blow things up. It's the tool of the violent, of the impatient, of the tactless. It also tends to drive one mad.

CotH already has generic one-dimensional villains who do things for the evulz; Marianna was this before and the time her character truly shone was when she...wasn't.

CotH also has three dimensional villains, so what's your point? :V

Fel isn't JUST about blowing stuff up. It's not JUST violent, but it tends to be that way because most people who use it go crazy-violent. By its nature as arcane magic, it should in theory do whatever arcane can do.
Your stories will always remain...
[Image: nIapRMV.png?1]
... as will your valiant hearts.
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#22
Not at all.

That's like saying fire and ice arcane should do the same things because they're both essentially arcane. Warlocks give up many abilities held by mages to gain whatever tricks fel provides for them. Or, they think fel provides for them. It is the magic of entropy and chaos, that is inescapable. Fel has been played as having portals, but these portals are highly unstable and dangerous, compared to a mage's. You may be able to force similar spells out of fel, but it isn't "natural" for it.

Also, insert conjured fel muffin joke here.

Marianna should do what is fun for her, but she should also not just become a cardboard background character for us heroes to look fancy next to when we (maybe) slaughter her. That is what one-dimensional characters end up being in writing, that is their purpose. The reason Gecko strives for three-dimensional characters is because they will develop and change with the story. One dimension? Stagnation, which leads to boredom.

My opinion, anyhow.
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#23
(11-01-2011, 08:53 PM)c0rzilla Wrote: Not at all.

That's like saying fire and ice arcane should do the same things because they're both essentially arcane. Warlocks give up many abilities held by mages to gain whatever tricks fel provides for them. Or, they think fel provides for them. It is the magic of entropy and chaos, that is inescapable.

Marianna should do what is fun for her, but she should also not just become a cardboard background character for us heroes to look fancy next to when we (maybe) slaughter her. That is what one-dimensional characters end up being in writing, that is their purpose. The reason Gecko strives for three-dimensional characters is because they will develop and change with the story. One dimension? Stagnation, which leads to boredom.

My opinion, anyhow.

I don't believe I could have set it better. I don't want Marianna as a pure antagonist; I'd like her as a foil and a character who develops in ways that add depth rather than subvert it.
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#24
I will say this quickly before we veer too drastically off topic:

Discussion of the strength of Fel and the value of two dimensional versus three dimensional characters, while good, is not really the point of this thread. I want to see what people want out of the guild, not which style or abilities are inherently 'better.'

Also, to the point of purpose: Players must sacrifice a degree of dimensionality with their characters if they wish to host a guild and do so well. If they don't then it will simply devolve into an organization all about them.
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#25
(11-01-2011, 09:01 PM)Rosencrat Wrote: Also, to the point of purpose: Players must sacrifice a degree of dimensionality with their characters if they wish to host a guild and do so well. If they don't then it will simply devolve into an organization all about them.

I'm afraid I must disagree strongly. The failing of Argus Wake (In my opine, naturally, and as I mentioned to you earlier) is that it was lead by Marianna-turned-cardboard-cutout. It served as an RP catalyst, and a venue to essentially 'make a mark' rather than facilitate creativity. It was a backdrop, and little more; they were just 'those generic evil guys doing their evil thing.' It's a role better filled by NPCs of existing Always Evil organizations such as Old God cultists and the Burning Legion.

Never sacrifice dimensionality with a character you intend to stick with. Set an example for those beneath you OOC as well as IC; give them interaction and intrigue rather than thoughtless motive.

One reason I argue for this so strongly is that it is such complex and ever-changing RP that I crave myself (even if I don't get it as often as I'd like) but...another is (to put it quite frankly) that one-dimensional characters and groups inevitably attract bad RPers. It's quite possible to get good RP out of them, of course; but one must strive against the flow channeled by the group, or play a role at its edge or outside it without truly immersing themselves.

What so often happens with this is that, rather than uncertainty, ambiguity, and intrigue, a large number of simple "Kill all uf teh guud guyz" villains and "Kill all dem bad guyz" heroes will emerge. Everyone is channeled into conquest and open war without having to truly think or explore themselves or their characters. "I dare say that the woman with devil horns is standing atop a pile of skulls is evil," one decides. "Allow me to gather a posse and roll my internet dice to attempt to kill her."

To do this is to glorify quantity of RP over quality; it is not a terribly prestigious goal to 'make a mark' if the mark made is merely a quick and haphazard coat of off-white base applied by a roller brush as opposed to a series of careful strokes with oils. Does it serve a purpose? Yes, as background for the complex characters. However, Warcraft's lore has already done that for us. There is no further need of such backdrops; they are superfluous and pander to those who treat roleplay as a video game rather than a collaborative writing project.
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and my favorite food is crikkits
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#26
(11-01-2011, 09:20 PM)hiddengecko Wrote: ...such as Old God cultists and the Burning Legion.

...Gecko, one of the founding stones of the Argus Wake was how it was a Legion guild.

I do not exaggerate when I tell you that the lore organization this group is named for and meant to be a cell thereof is, indeed, a sect of some Always Evil Shadow Council conspiracy people.

To be honest, there are some that genuinely enjoy and live by the black and white. Especially for a lot of roleplayers new to CotH, as much can really be a lot of fun.

I've heard time and time again of good experiences with Marianna the demoness, right along with denigration from those that would claim her antics gaudy garbage.

Why is it wrong, I would ask you? Why is this specific corridor of roleplaying taboo?

It can be and has been done both beautifully as well as in respect to the rules and principles by which this server operates.

I don't know why people are claiming one of countless hollow villains.

The trends of server evil have changed, most everyone's gray. There is in fact a distinct lack of the sorts carved from solid sin.

CotH is known for its elitism, and I'm an elitist sort of prick myself, but I find it uncomfortable to know we're condemning a variety of roleplaying because it's the province those less skilled/experienced tend to tread.

Literature geared toward children is often deceptively simple stuff, but they have never gone out of style.

I am, right now, being exactly what I'm criticizing.

I may not be encouraging their avoidance, but I'm still looking down on an imaginary demographic of roleplayers from on haughtily high.

Masterpieces are great, but people love canvases too.

Introspection is something I adore, but soul-searching is not for everyone.

Every roleplayer already walks onto the stage with a sincere amount of "depth".

From the poorest to the most inspiring, each writer channels themselves and their own personality and unique life experiences into their craft... often whether they like it or not, one way or another.

I've seen infinite amounts of mentions of how the background coming to life has delighted.

I feel that no matter what one intends to do as a guild concept, two general questions summarize:
  • Do I earnestly enjoy this sort of roleplaying?

  • Will those I intend to roleplay with enjoy this?

I do not disagree that a charismatic guild leader is likely to become the main character of a guild's plot.

I do not believe that this is a bad thing, though this opinion is doubtless affected by my remarkable bias toward me.

The only concern about that I yet recognize is how much more important this character and their player is as part of the lives of those involved.

People rally around and identify with brilliant individuals all the time. Many and most of the server population is composed of followers, or at least those that prefer to follow.

I can't confidently claim to not be one of those people.


I like ego. I think it's a good thing. I read Atlas Shrugged. Ayn Rand is cool.

I do believe you intend to toss forward Marianna as an altruistic being.

Not altruistic in the defend the innocent way, no, but in the defend and empower those I care for sense.

...I view the idea as a means of giving Marianna a soul while still ensuring the guild stars its membership at large as she plans to better their place.

Though, if they're gathering around her as rock of support, that's simply the "good" version of egotistical leadership.

...I imagine that you intend to focus on foster the growth of your flock, however.

...

F**k. I'm terrible at this "not about the leader" leadership thing. I'm sorry.

I'm very much of the patterns of thought that they who lead the way is they that define how those that follow walk it.

It's you that yours have banded around. Your drive that will get your group going.

An organization typically has a focus that it organizes around. That can be idea or goal, but I'm fairly sure it's a person in this case.

You're important.

I don't see why it can't be a solar system, with you its sun.

I'm probably blind in this sense.

Staring too long into bright lights, am I right?

Marianna, and moreover the you behind her, define(s) your guild.

What I mean to say is that I look from my place some miles away and presume Rosencrat the strongest personality amongst her people by far.

...However, as something of fringe relevance...

For all my chafe with the absolute attitude to hiddengecko's post, I've more than just sipped that sin in my above writings.

That I've been infinitely more long-winded and scattered sees that all the more aggravated.








Postscript. I'm not sure what we're (I'm) arguing about, if anything, as Rosencrat has long since already decided her course of action.
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#27
I guess this may be a little off topic, but the attitude that Marianna can't be as equally imposing or have the same level of influence or intimidation because she's just a "plain old woman" or what have you is a little disappointing.

It may just be my feelings about how female characters are treated in general. I don't get why a woman can't make her move or do something significant without some gimmick like fel to back it up. She doesn't need to be a crazy monster or a demon to be as good of a villain. I remember doing quite a bit on Skipper as an example and all she did was lead a band of pirates. She didn't need some crazy super power to be a good villain, and she was just a little 19-year-old.

That's my thoughts, anyways. I do have a fear that female villains aren't taken as seriously (more people were trying to protect/save my character when she was capable of protecting herself), but perhaps a good, 3-dimensional figure can change people's perceptions about what roles females can fill.
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#28
(11-01-2011, 09:01 PM)Rosencrat Wrote: Also, to the point of purpose: Players must sacrifice a degree of dimensionality with their characters if they wish to host a guild and do so well. If they don't then it will simply devolve into an organization all about them.

I think it's been said already but I have to strongly disagree with this sentiment. While a one-dimensional character may indeed be a 'means to an end' in terms of ease of use, a fully fleshed out character is just more enjoyable. And to me... well, easier to take seriously.

Again, this will likely boil down to a split on villainy and how to swing it, but I just can't take an undeveloped villain seriously. Lots of them invoke a Saturday morning cartoon vibe to them, and to me that just isn't a good thing. It kills my immersion, it cuts down the drama of a situation, and in general I have a problem feeling the imposing capability of this character.

There's just something more believable when your villain has characterization outside of leaping about in an evil plot and making monologues when the heroes catch up (though I could debate that a bit as well, too :u).

Eh. But I think that's just a difference in taste. Some people like a less developed villain, and some like the ones that are basically just sharks. /shrug.

EDIT: To clarify a bit more on my idea of guilds and the developed characters, you can easily do this. It just depends on what kind of personality your head has-- the schemer is probably the best for a guild, as the work through their minions and are somewhat personified them to the heroes. In that way the minions and the big bad themselves get a spotlight.
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#29
(11-02-2011, 05:13 AM)Wuvvums Wrote: I guess this may be a little off topic, but the attitude that Marianna can't be as equally imposing or have the same level of influence or intimidation because she's just a "plain old woman" or what have you is a little disappointing.

It may just be my feelings about how female characters are treated in general. I don't get why a woman can't make her move or do something significant without some gimmick like fel to back it up. She doesn't need to be a crazy monster or a demon to be as good of a villain. I remember doing quite a bit on Skipper as an example and all she did was lead a band of pirates. She didn't need some crazy super power to be a good villain, and she was just a little 19-year-old.

That's my thoughts, anyways. I do have a fear that female villains aren't taken as seriously (more people were trying to protect/save my character when she was capable of protecting herself), but perhaps a good, 3-dimensional figure can change people's perceptions about what roles females can fill.

Well, no matter how you slice it, its sort of hard for a middle age queen of the hill to add up to a flying demon with laser eyes.
Your stories will always remain...
[Image: nIapRMV.png?1]
... as will your valiant hearts.
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#30
And we're still getting off topic! Though I love talking about myself and the nature of evil, there are better places for it.

The closest thing we've got to 'on message' has been the discussion of Marianna as a leader.

Personally I have never had much trouble with people not taking Marianna seriously. Neither have I had a problem with people respecting her. Now, however, I am having trouble slotting her and her current personality (I think I need to stress it again: Pre and post restart Marianna are completely different animals in both personality and strengths) into the guild structure of Argus Wake.

That's one of the points I'm rolling over: Do we change the leader to fit the guild or the guild to fit the leader?
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