Poll: Would you like to see Custom Lore on CoTH?
Yes
No
Mixed feelings (I will post)
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CoTH Presents: Custom Lore (Maybe)
#16
(08-06-2014, 06:52 AM)Alliicce Wrote: Heavily mixed feelings.

While writing, I feel that Custom Lore is just something that people want to have because they feel that RP is stale. We have how many zones? There's a lot to do, but no one comes up with an interesting story to make an event with the zone they pick. I'm not saying there hasn't been interesting stories already, but there should be more of that instead of discussing Custom Lore right now at this point in time. If we literally did everything we could RP wise on the server and knew we couldn't have access to MoP? I would probably consider it, but that's not the case at all.

I most likely didn't touch everything I wanted to say and probably had a terrible time explaining it. It's really hard to gather my thoughts.

Spoiler:
I am not fond of the idea of having people tampering around with Lore. It makes me feel like we're going to end up writing a bad fanfiction. We all have opinions and I feel that it's just going to end up bitter if not everyone agrees with it. If this does happen, for the love of all that's holy, do NOT touch Lore Figures or the big storylines. I always hear the complaining of Garrosh, but no, don't even try with him. You can complain about how much you hate him, but I would be greatly upset, going back to the bad fanfiction idea I mentioned. I'm pretty much not for the whole Custom Lore on that aspect of trying to change/tweak the story or character because PEOPLE feel that it should. It's not your call to do so in my opinion. This is probably because I enjoy what Blizzard has for has without much complaint. I trust in what they're doing, so I don't trust anyone to even attempt their own take on such things.

WHAT I AM FOR?

Custom made factions
Custom made towns
Events in Stagnant Areas like Outland and Northrend
Retroactive Events

With Custom made factions and towns, I feel like a group of people can found such things and give it history. For places, I feel that it shouldn't break the lore in the area where it's located in. For example, you can't have a town in Westfall that's prosperous and bandit free. As for factions, it would be basically like how noble houses work. You can make active storylines and progression with these things.

I would really like to go back to Outland and Northrend, but we'll have to look over what happened and what was end game for each zone perhaps. I feel there would still be conflict of the major enemies in the area, but at a lesser extent to what it was before. Not so much changing it, but to know what's there and what has happened.

We know generally what happened the past, especially in the wars and what not. The events would be a small part of what could of happened. I would really like to RP out the Fall of Dalaran or Quel'thalas. Of course, if anyone has some interesting backstory at that time, they can talk to the DM about what their character did and have it implemented into the event.

Overall, I'm generally for creating things that would have little serious or to no impact on the main storylines of Lore and Lore Figures.

Quoted because a good portion of my mixed feelings are echoed in here. (And lots of spoilers, because I ramble when I can't link my ideas cohesively, I apologize).

I'm new. Really new, maybe not even two weeks old. I spent the first few days going through old posts and threads to see where my limits were on things, because when I start creating, I can go from creating a character, to creating a character, a background, an entire town, an entire civilization complete with languages and religions and battles. It's what I like to do, and I like to believe I do it well enough. I enjoy writing fanfiction, but the one thing I honestly never, ever do is mess with known lore characters. In one of my most recent fics, I write an AU where the Legion comes back and thoroughly buttholes Azeroth, Draenor/Outlands explodes, and the survivors are forced to tear open a portal and end up on a totally different world. I killed off pretty much every lore character in one manner or another, because the whole reason I started the AU was a "what if" scenario and Blizzard has written so many lore characters into the ground that they'd be useless anyway.

Spoiler:
My biggest complaint with the lore behind Warcraft is that we don't get to experience all of it if we hold purely to the game. As someone in school for what is essentially developing video games (because apparently I'm an incredible masochist) and who routinely seeks to become part of the Blizzard team, I recognize that one of their biggest failings is that they have left a good part of what made Warcraft so magical out of the game completely. I hate Garrosh. In my AU, he dies. That's mostly because I thought he was going to die anyway, but then WoD was announced and I saw Blizz's troll face. I kept it anyway. Unless you read the books, the comics, and play the game... you don't get even a little bit of the story you should.

Going back to the above quote, there is so much that can be played upon without ever touching the lore as it is, which is one of the first things that made me doubt joining this server in the first place. Custom lore was shot down pretty hard in older threads because the general feel was that you wanted to stick to Blizz's lore, and you really didn't want to turn into one of the other servers who had warped the lore so much that it was barely able to be called Warcraft at all. So why mess with the main lore at all when you can touch so much lore that is potentially in the game already, but will never be touched by Blizzard in the foreseeable future?

Going back to Rigley's post, there's one line that actually pretty much underscores exactly why I have the mixed feelings, though I am aware these are Rigley's words and they aren't speaking for the whole of the team:

Quote:This is less the product of 'rp feels stale' and more the product of 'we don't like where Blizzard is taking us', and its been produced more out of seeing the plot develop in Mists of Pandaria and Warlords of Draenor more than anything.

After seeing how staunchly GM's defended their reasons for not wishing to bring in custom lore (or at least extensive custom lore) previously, I would honestly be more okay with, "we feel that loosening the restrictions of custom lore under careful supervision will help meet a middle ground that continues the quality the GM's want, while extending the possibility of server impact that players want" rather than something that comes across a little too much like, "Well, now that we want it, it'll happen, and here's how it'll go down."

Why I'm For It:

A collaborative effort that brings a little bit of a living world feeling to one that tends to stagnate unless Blizzard throws it a bone? Heck yeah. I'm all for that.

Why I'm Not For It:

Spoiler:
Looking at the logs and the reason for why you'd wish to potentially fiddle with Garrosh and the whole MoP ending, I have to say... you're either missing big pieces of the puzzle, or you are glossing over certain defining moments (most of which are, again, in the other media that isn't the game). Not all orcs are evil - if you weren't for Garrosh, you were kicked out or killed. The "True Horde" was primarily made up of orcs because that was the point, as Garrosh wanted orc supremacy. But he treated the other races like poop on his boot... which is why the rebellion was so large. The Belves nearly became Alliance - because Garrosh had no concern for their welfare, and those elves who were loyal enough to Garrosh to risk their neutrality in Dalaran got every last Sunreaver expelled from Dalaran, killed or jailed.

You could not find me a character that would replace Garrosh and have the same ending effect on the world. There is no one. MoP is truly less about the Pandaren (which is a shame, as they are quite enjoyable even in their faults), and more about the fall of a promising character. This is not new to Warcraft lore. See... just about every villain we've encountered in game save a few. Redeeming Garrosh isn't satisfying. He's never going to be redeemed. Blizzard may have goofed by putting a good amount of his development in other media than the game, but in the end, he became what his character dictated he could possibly become. He's a tiny man with a whole lot to prove.

He was willing to wipe out entire races to get what he wants - not counting the whole willing to kill his own people bit. He wanted world domination, and he wanted to sit on that throne as king. I feel that people who try to redeem such characters are the type who truly want to believe that everyone can be saved, which is a noble ideal but isn't particularly true. He had several people guiding him, hoping that he would take the right path at the fork... and he chose left. On his own. He could have been good. Arthas could have not picked up Frostmourne. Gul'dan could have not betrayed Ner'zhul. Illidan could have allied permanently with the Legion. Sargeras could have not gotten to Archimonde or Kil'jaeden. Change any of these things, and the entire story changes.

People were not okay with things Garrosh did. Which is why the Horde and the "True Horde" are not the same beast. Theramore horrified Baine. Sylvanas was sure that Theramore's wiping would bring the Alliance down on the Forsaken and Blood Elves. Vol'jin lost all hope for Garrosh. That was his moral event horizon (and trust me, he's all over that trope page). He obliterated a city of people without care to how it would come back on his own forces, because in his head the other forces didn't matter. They were fodder. Bait. The only True Horde were the orcs loyal to him. Everyone else could burn. In his quest for power, he dropped the heart of a dead Old God into a pure place, obliterating those there and dooming them to a lifetime of eternal agony for their failure.

But at the end of all of it, Jaina states that Garrosh cannot be used to represent orcs, as they have tried desperately to amend for what has happened. Jaina, the one who spent pretty much all of the expansion wanting to redecorate with Orc hides, basically outright says that not all orcs are evil.

TL;DR on above spoiler: I don't support messing with lore characters or canon events, basically. I pretty much hate every lore character currently active in the canon lore, but I could never look Metzen in the face and say, "I can write your OCs better than you can."

Please Note: I am a budding developer with my focus on art and writing in the game design field, and I spend quite a bit of time researching the lore of Warcraft and breaking it down piece by piece for my classes, routinely. This is a subject I'm passionate about, but at no point do I ever mean to hit the point where anyone feels attacked. If I ever come on too strong, it's okay to whap my nose with a newspaper.
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#17
While I want to say that this isn't the thread to debate the finer points of what should or should not be changed, I'll answer this to better elaborate why this proposal even became a thing in the first place.

(08-07-2014, 03:48 AM)Lireesa Wrote: Looking at the logs and the reason for why you'd wish to potentially fiddle with Garrosh and the whole MoP ending, I have to say... you're either missing big pieces of the puzzle, or you are glossing over certain defining moments (most of which are, again, in the other media that isn't the game).

Where I talk about Garrosh and Orcs:

Spoiler:
Trust me when I say we haven't missed a thing. I have read countless debates, on this forum and official forums. I've read conversations about this on various Skype groups. I've read several novels, including The Shattering and Garrosh's leader short story. I've read several of the articles that perform extreme acts of mental contortionism in order to make Garrosh's character "flow." There is literally nothing that you can bring to this particular table that I haven't read a hundred times before.

Here's the real problem with Garrosh: he isn't a consistent character. Like, at all. If he was just an evil guy on a throne for a while, no one would really care. The problem is that Garrosh isn't even really a character, but he's a tool for Blizzard. He existed to spark more antagonism between the factions and to put the Horde where they wanted them. To that end he...sort of worked, but on the writing end he was a complete disaster. To see that, you need only take a look at what he was for every expansion that he was present for:

Burning Crusade - Garrosh starts as a despondent young man, in a dark depression due to the belief that his father was a villain that damned his people. He makes no effort to lead his people. He's given new hope when Thrall comes and shows him his father is now seen as a hero. Garrosh in BC is a depressed man who is aroused from his depression and given hope by the end.

Wrath of the Lich King - Garrosh suddenly becomes a raging toolbag, scorning the player character who helped him in Nagrand. He develops an extreme hatred for the Alliance from...somewhere, and takes up a leadership position with the Warsong Offensive. However, from quests and conversations within Warsong Hold, it's pointed out several times that Garrosh is an inept strategist and the real brains of the outfit is Saurfang. Garrosh clashes with Thrall several times, showing no real concern for either his or Saurfang's opinions. Garrosh in WotLK is a raging brute, angry at everything but also possessing only his brute strength as his sole asset.

Cataclysm - Garrosh is now Warchief. He's apparently racist towards trolls and tauren now. This is apparently due to his strategic brilliance during WotLK (I would chalk this up to Garrosh riding on Saurfang's coat-tails, but it's referenced more than once as a current virtue, so it's just inconsistent writing.) Garrosh is still a raging toolbag, but his hot-headedness comes with personal lessons. He shows signs of actual growth during the events of Stonetalon, and expresses an adamant hate of fel and corruption during Ashenvale. During this, he expresses respect for Saurfang that he didn't previously. Garrosh in Cata is a young warchief in over his head, but slowly learning the positive lessons of what it takes to be a ruler. He is still hot-headed, but is learning to temper that part of him.

Mists of Pandaria - Garrosh tosses out all of those lessons he learned before, and whatever respect he had for other characters, and just goes full on into villainy. He twirls his mustache a while. Despite fel corruption apparently being beneath him, corrupting other orcs with the sha is apparently okay. He performs acts of slaughter on innocents that he found abhorrent just a year before. It's stressed that this is all Garrosh, he was in no way corrupted by anything. He's just crazy now for reasons. Shut up. Garrosh in MoP is a mustache-twirling villain. That's really about it.

Warlords of Draenor - The great and mighty warrior that took an entire raid to bring down is now one-shotted by Thrall. Trollololololol!

These four versions of Garrosh are all different and incompatible with one another. This isn't character development, and it's not growth: it's a series of rewrites. They rewrote Garrosh's character between every expansion, and then novels were added to (unsuccessfully) justify the changes after the fact. The Shattering was probably the best Garrosh was ever written, and even that was contradictory to a lot of what we'd seen in Wrath and would see in Cataclysm.

The orcs suffered a problem that also related to inconsistent characterization, but also Blizzard's rather odd tendency to paint races uniformly in broad strokes. Are all orcs evil? Of course not! You know that and I know that...but man, the average player of WoW most certainly does not. Go take a look at the official story forums and that becomes very clear. This is, of course, due to the writing and the presentation of the story.

First of all, there is no reason why the orcs needed to be the target of this particular story, because it's a rehash. "Orc boss man does bad things, corrupts his followers, and leads them to their doom" was done not once before, but twice...and by Garrosh's father no less! MoP's storyline may have been intended as a throwback to the days of yore, but it ends up painting the orcs as being ridiculously stupid for doing the same thing again and again when they are supposed to be, by lore, effectively repentant sinners.

Secondly, the opposition is never shown in any visible manner. The conflict in MoP is painted as "trolls good, orcs bad", with the Darkspear Rebellion being an entirely troll-oriented endeavor. This gets taken to ridiculous levels when the rebellion takes over Razor Hill, and not a single orc in the entire town lifts a finger to assist. Had the rebellion been shown in a more balanced manner, this problem might not even exist.

Now, this is just the tip of the iceburg. Garrosh and the orcs are by far not the only victims of Blizzard's inconsistent writing: Jaina, Varian, and Sylvanas are among the list of characters that seem to get jerked back and forth for no reasons I can detect. Garrosh came up specifically because he's the most obviously flawed and he's the most damaging.

Quote:TL;DR on above spoiler: I don't support messing with lore characters or canon events, basically. I pretty much hate every lore character currently active in the canon lore, but I could never look Metzen in the face and say, "I can write your OCs better than you can."

While I can't claim to have piercing insight into how Blizzard manages its own game, from hearing how things work in similar games and from comments from Metzen himself, I highly doubt Metzen writes everything related to his own characters. Part of the problem, and what leads to the above inconsistencies, is that Metzen isn't writing for his own characters.

Quest text, for example, would generally be written by the quest designer, not a professional writer, and that text would later get punched up by someone else (this process as described is basically how Guild Wars 2 was written.) At some point, you have lots of people having to write for different zones and parts of the game, so you have lots of voices, sometimes multiple voices having to write for the same character. This leads to the above problems, where characters are inconsistent.

Someone mentioned to me before that Metzen wasn't entirely happy with the writing for Thrall or somesuch. Someone else can chime in on that since I don't have a link.

So, I wouldn't tell Metzen that we could write better than he could...but I would be perfectly fine teling him we could write better than his current staff could. Call that arrogance if you please, but I personally think it's just that Blizzard set the bar really, really low, and not entirely due to their own fault. They're making a game and not a novel, so their focus will always be gameplay and not story. That's their job, I don't blame them for that. But I also think it's a bit silly to treat the story of a bunch of game designers as sacrosanct.

Quote:After seeing how staunchly GM's defended their reasons for not wishing to bring in custom lore (or at least extensive custom lore) previously, I would honestly be more okay with, "we feel that loosening the restrictions of custom lore under careful supervision will help meet a middle ground that continues the quality the GM's want, while extending the possibility of server impact that players want" rather than something that comes across a little too much like, "Well, now that we want it, it'll happen, and here's how it'll go down."

Which brings me to this. So, yes, I was one of those people that, in the past, helped make the decision to keep CotH's lore "Blizz-like." This is for a few reasons, but I want to point out something: this rule was made back during Wrath, when I think many of us agree was the highest point WoW reached with regards to its writing and lore. While not perfect by any means, Wrath of the Lich King was fine as far as its writing went. We didn't have major complaints, and we didn't have piercing insight into how the next several expansions would shape up.

Now that we know how the future will be shaped, I think it's a little unfair to say that we are now not allowed to change our minds.
Have you hugged an orc today?
- I am not tech support. Please do not contact me regarding technical issues. -
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#18
//Rigley's Opinion: Rigley's Opinion is not Necessarily Indicative of Overall GM Thoughts or Incoming Policies.//

(08-07-2014, 03:48 AM)Lireesa Wrote:
Quote:This is less the product of 'rp feels stale' and more the product of 'we don't like where Blizzard is taking us', and its been produced more out of seeing the plot develop in Mists of Pandaria and Warlords of Draenor more than anything.

After seeing how staunchly GM's defended their reasons for not wishing to bring in custom lore (or at least extensive custom lore) previously, I would honestly be more okay with, "we feel that loosening the restrictions of custom lore under careful supervision will help meet a middle ground that continues the quality the GM's want, while extending the possibility of server impact that players want" rather than something that comes across a little too much like, "Well, now that we want it, it'll happen, and here's how it'll go down."

As I tried to make clear in my post I was trying not to speak from the perspectives of the other members of the team. I was more phrasing it as how I'm viewing this topic; so I'd still say my original phrasing is more earnest. I'd still be saying it if I wasn't a GM. If you want an alternate then I'd say 'I don't like where Blizzard is taking us, and I think all of us can make it better'.

Now, regarding your concerns:
The (My, let me stress that- my) proposal isn't to remove Garrosh, its to rewrite his story and his progression. We're not talking about redeeming him, we're not talking about making him a good guy or changing his fate. There are ways you can reach the culmination of his story that I think would work better.

And while I would never tell someone that I can write their character better than they can, Garrosh isn't really Metzen's character. Nor is Thrall. They may have been created by him originally but people have since looked at them and said 'I can do this better, my way'. They didn't say it outright, but I doubt Metzen orchestrated the entirety of Garrosh's plotline. These characters are the product of many people, not just one. Lots of people have written for the lore characters of WoW, and honestly it feels like a lot of them wanted to make changes. Not particularly ones I enjoy (Patience, Tyrande), but it seems like they tried to change course a few times.

Now- that being said, we're not looking to completely redo anything. If I were to take Sylvanas and play her off as a lover of nature and the light and pretty flowers then I might as well not even be using Sylvanas. Ideally we're staying true to the character while changing the events around them, and I think there's a big difference there.


...Also, I similarly want to note that I have no desire to squash anyone who doesn't like these ideas. By all means speak up; I feel pretty strongly about this topic though and I want to make sure my thoughts are put out on the table to be considered. I would urge anyone who isn't in agreement with me to do the same, because at the moment the favor is greatly in the side of custom lore and I think your opinions need to be heard as well.

//Rigley's Opinion: Rigley's Opinion is not Necessarily Indicative of Overall GM Thoughts or Incoming Policies.//
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#19
I don't support messing with lore characters or canon events.
No rewrites. No touch ups. No matter how much you say it's "beneficial" to do so.
Custom Lore that would not mess with lore characters and canon events? Go for it.
I'm heavily against messing with what's already canon, no matter how badly people may view it, that is all.
Quote:"Your faction is the underdog right?
You always lose and suck at everything.
You lose towns, people and your second in command is a 14-year old who uses dark magic on his protectors and runs away alone the the wilderness."
- Panoss from the WoW retail forums
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#20
You're in the vast minority, Alice, so, unless you start trying to convince others via posts similar to today above, then you'll probably just be trampled by the minority.
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#21
I already mentioned my feelings in a jumbled post above. Lireesa went further with my post and I completely agree with what was said in that post.
My second post was to be more of a simplified stated opinion of how I feel on the topic.
I'm not going to persuade anyone that my opinion is right. Honestly, if Custom Lore happens and it does what I heavily disagree with, I'll most likely leave the server completely and move on.
Quote:"Your faction is the underdog right?
You always lose and suck at everything.
You lose towns, people and your second in command is a 14-year old who uses dark magic on his protectors and runs away alone the the wilderness."
- Panoss from the WoW retail forums
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#22
After reading through the posts, I'm in favor of leaving the lore figure stories as is, with the custom lore being elements we introduce rather than change. My primary reason for this is that justifying or rectifying their paths doesn't seem to have as much bearing on us, the player character. In the Orc example, while Blizzard has portrayed Orcs in a much negative light, I highly doubt that coth players will strictly emulate this. I'd even go as far as to say most current characters are more center leaning, even if they identify with their faction. So combined with the fact that our characters by coth rules have no personal contact or relationship with lore figures, the little nuances/story edits being suggested would have no effect on how roleplay is conducted. The idea of new factions and maybe small towns/forts, however, are custom lore items that would have a direct effect.

So in short, yay to custom lore additions, nay to changes that won't have any real effect on the server population other than to satisfy how we believe a lore event should have reached its conclusion. It opens up a can of worms where many might nitpick at all the lore, to make things fit their perspective, and if refused, might claim bias over what changes were okay and what changes were not.
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#23
Y'know, if I could change my vote around I'd do so by now but the silly poll won't let me. Nevermind, I looked in the wrong place! Changing earlier vote~

I'll switch over to mixed feelings and side with the above. Not sure what else to add to it; I'd like to see it in the sense of custom towns, factions; Things to strive for and all those things, but indeed, it may open up such a festering pit of nitpicking that I'd rather bash my head on the desk and get it over with the moment it starts. I wouldn't be too surprised if it would spark never-ending discussions up which eventually leads to a perceived bias; Such things can't really be stopped but if we keep the established scenarios endings as is, and touch up on the ones that have been ignored, it may be more limited.

I'd love to see additions to BC/WotLK zones; Expand towns into Northrend, clear things up; Fix the scar as mentioned above, reclaim the other half of Silvermoon.. Fix the Exodar, clear the crash sites and the NPC's laying there. In case of towns/factions; Don't make it "BAM; HERE IS A FULL TOWN" as has been done so far, every single time -- Get people involved, let it have an open outcome. The town can stand or fall with people's input, allow for people to create hostile factions, start wars; Allow good doers to raid bandit lairs to defend the town.

Get factions to start out with a few members, get them involved in the cities much akin to the NPC's; Spread propaganda, spread their cause. Try to convert people from other pre-established factions and all that conflict-stirring stuff! It'd make for nice RP.

If people work for the town, keep it safe, roll craftsmen and soldiers? Let it thrive. If people grow bored of the town? Lack of security? Lack of resource gathering? Let it fall into poverty again, let it get raided and what not. Make the world breathe, and enhance the town bit by bit before the people's eyes. (Maybe stick to 1 or 2 of such projects at a time while the rest of the world goes on, as to allow people to still do their own RPs. Don't give the feeling of "There is so much going on, we can't be everywhere at once." )

Heck, maybe even get to rebuilding the park in Stormwind. It still ain't fixed in WoD.

Clean / spruce up areas that make sense but don't impact the overall storyline that goes on. Don't turn villains into heroes or the other way around, feel free to show more events in which they actually descend into villain or hero-hood however. Best example I can give to that; WoD, Garrosh being stomped by Thrall? Keep it, just make him put up an actual fight. (I know we ain't into WoD, not by a longshot, but it was the first thing that came to mind.)
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#24
I suggest changing the lore so that Garrosh wins.

No joke, I do believe roleplaying 'what if Garrosh won' (and didn't just genocide the other races) would be hilarious. Grovel before your orcish overlords. It would stop being the Horde and now be the Empire, and there would be the Rebel Alliance, and Garrosh would build a death star but wouldn't want to use it but sylvannaswoulddoitanyway just to prove a point to princess jaina about how the empire works so anduin is trained in the way of the light -- a now lost art by one of the last living draenei who is tragically killed by garrosh's apprentice, varian (but who now wears a black mask) in a one on one duel to the death but the draenei (who is velen) becomes a space goa-ghost and it turns out that swords have been banned because they are a representative of the old alliance ways so now everyone uses axes but a few are secretly trained in the sword these people are known as

Everything would be better if you just let me roleplay Garrosh freely I would save him.

LET ME HAVE MY GARR-BEAR

That aside, custom lore would be cool. Just try not to deviate from the main path of the Warcraft story, as much as some don't like it. It is very easy to have Garrosh do the same actions and be a tragic hero who fails in running the modern Horde and living up to what he believes his father's expectations would be instead of just a douchebag.
Quote:[8:53AM] Cassius: Xigo is the best guy ever. he doesn't afraid of anything.
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#25
(08-07-2014, 11:55 AM)FlyingSquirrel Wrote: You're in the vast minority, Alice, so, unless you start trying to convince others via posts similar to today above, then you'll probably just be trampled by the minority.

As a note, it's probably not the best idea to encourage silence over disagreeing with the majority. CotH is a creative place full of different, vibrant characters with separate opinions and ideas. It would be a disservice to the server and everyone on it to discourage someone in that way.

With that said, I voted yes. I left CotH previously for a few reasons, none of them because I was angry at anyone or something so silly. Really, I left for two main points. The first was time, because I'm doing school with a full-time job. Second is because it felt to me as if the RP was stagnating here. That's not the worst thing, but it didn't quite mesh well with me because I've always been a big fan of epic fantasy and a grand plotline. I want to see stories that matter, stories that create a reason to continue down that path. That's how so many books draw you in. "Will Joe Shmoe get his sword back from the necromancer?" is interesting because you don't know exactly where everything will be at the end of the conflict. CotH, to me, had the issue of many cartoons and sitcoms and the like: things would change in the middle, but you knew in the back of your head that the end would mirror the beginning. The pieces would be reset until the next story arc comes in, switches them around, and then be reset once more in a cycle.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, either. It just depends on personal preferences. Many are perfectly happy with that setup. Others like the thrill of not knowing the next event, the next consequence. Neither group is better than the other. I, however, fall into the second group. I don't mind the first option, but it won't keep me there forever. I'll eventually grow bored with it, sadly. I know I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

All that said, I will totally be back here role-playing my eyes out if we get custom lore. Love that stuff.
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#26
(08-07-2014, 05:28 PM)Mezrin Wrote:
(08-07-2014, 11:55 AM)FlyingSquirrel Wrote: You're in the vast minority, Alice, so, unless you start trying to convince others via posts similar to today above, then you'll probably just be trampled by the minority.

As a note, it's probably not the best idea to encourage silence over disagreeing with the majority. CotH is a creative place full of different, vibrant characters with separate opinions and ideas. It would be a disservice to the server and everyone on it to discourage someone in that way.

I didn't mean to discourage, and I'm sorry if it seems like that. I was just pointing out, perhaps a bit brutishly, that stating your own opinion without really any reason why isn't really the best way to convince someone else. I haven't been paying much attention to the thread, so I wasn't aware that she'd already made a post.

Again, sorry if I offended/dissuaded anyone from posting.
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#27
This vastly interests me. You have yes, for what it is worth.
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#28
(08-07-2014, 08:44 AM)Grakor456 Wrote: While I want to say that this isn't the thread to debate the finer points of what should or should not be changed, I'll answer this to better elaborate why this proposal even became a thing in the first place.

... snip...

Which brings me to this. So, yes, I was one of those people that, in the past, helped make the decision to keep CotH's lore "Blizz-like." This is for a few reasons, but I want to point out something: this rule was made back during Wrath, when I think many of us agree was the highest point WoW reached with regards to its writing and lore. While not perfect by any means, Wrath of the Lich King was fine as far as its writing went. We didn't have major complaints, and we didn't have piercing insight into how the next several expansions would shape up.

Now that we know how the future will be shaped, I think it's a little unfair to say that we are now not allowed to change our minds.

I'm not trying to imply that you can't change your mind. Good things come out of changing minds, and it's always good to see all sides. I'm not even trying to say that it's wrong you're changing your mind, and why you're changing your mind at all... because I can understand it. I honestly can, because I'll be blunt - I would tell the Blizzard writing team I could do better than what they've been doing. So I'll jump right on that potential arrogance with you, no problem.

... I suppose the point I'm trying to make is, if the story is going to end up the exact same way, if the same path is going to be played out, if the same enemies are going to be right there doing something wrong and the heroes still have to kill them for whatever reason? I don't see a reason to change it. As Jonoth points out in his post, our limited contact with lore figures as it is pretty much means that any edits you do to those lore characters, no matter who they are, are simply personal and not for the benefit of the server as a whole. It doesn't matter if Garrosh remains as he is or goes mad with Sha influence, because the outcome and the only part my character sees/hears remains exactly the same. To my characters, it makes no difference if Garrosh had Sha influence or someone ate the last Ho Ho - he still did morally reprehensible things and it's up to the character to decide how this impacts them, not the player.

Which is why I continue to have my mixed feelings. "Yes" for character-driven custom lore that still adheres to the essence of Warcraft and improves what Blizzard has so far abandoned, "No" to player-driven edits to lore characters/stories for reasons that have no impact at all on the vast majority of characters who play.

If the poll had been "Yes, with canon character modification" "Yes, with no canon modifications" "No" and "Mixed Feelings," I would have answered the second Yes, and I'm honestly curious on how many of the current "Yes" votes would have split between the two. But I'm a curious person.
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#29
Honestly, I'd just tweak Garrosh lore by saying that he'd somehow been influenced by the Sha/Old Gods for a long time, and it's finally catching up with him.

Yeah, it's a copout, but it makes the schizophrenic (in the art sense) characterization work.

As for some other comments above, treating new lore like we've been doing with Lore events sounds great, but I'm a bit concerned about the idea of things failing without character interaction. CotH has always been more a snapshot of the lives of a handful of characters in amuck bigger world. Having more than, say, a very small town's success be based on our own characters will be more of a negative reminder of our small playerbase and discourage people exploring more settings and themes.

General progress should be had at the players pace though, for sure. Fixing the Scar? Show progress in-world after each event.
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#30
I haven't RP'd seriously in forever and a half. Every now and then I'll get on an unknown lvl 60 toon to just chat around with people, but I've never gotten really involved in anything for like...I dunno, two years? And that's mostly because I feel like my character's can't really do or change anything. It's all insignificant; there aren't any plots to immerse myself in.

I think custom lore could change that, and I like what the proponents of that have said. Plus, I've been saying for years that I stopped paying attention to what Blizzard does as far as writing goes because they've been messing it up for awhile now.

Grakor touched on how Garrosh's character isn't so much a character, as it is a tool. I agree, and also think that it isn't just Garrosh that's become a narrative tool--a lot of things have. A lot of this is due to the fact that WoW is an MMO with PvP and raiding focuses. Ergo, the entire narrative has to drive at having two giant factions of player-characters solving world-threatening problems via raids while simultaneously constantly fighting each other because reasons. Everything in WoW's storyline has to service those needs, and because of it, various characters, factions, and events get hijacked to serve the mechanics of the MMO--whether it makes sense or not (which, as we've seen, it often does not).

Part of me blames Blizzard but the other part of me understands. They're a company that has the most successful MMO out there, which continually generates them piles of cash. I certainly understand why they would prioritize keeping the roller-coaster going for as long as they can. But, WoW has gone on for so long that it's clear that the writers are already way past the end of their rope.

And, y'know, there's only so many times Chris Metzen can repeat the same "plot twists" before people just get irritated with it. I've been irritated with Metzen's writing for awhile now, and I can't even imagine how he's able to just literally use the same "twist" (SEE THIS HERO HERE?! GUESS WHAT! THEY'RE A VILLAIN NOW! AND CORRUPTED! BECAUSE REAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNSSSSS! OH BUT WAIT! SEE THIS EVIL FACTION/PERSON HERE?! THEY WERE REALLY GOOD ALL ALONG! BECAUSE REAAAAAAAAAASSSSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNS).

Eh, probably isn't Metzen's fault. I just like using him as a convenient punching-bag and scapegoat because I am a petty person who needs to feel superior by overly criticizing established industry titans who have the job I wish I did.

Anyway, back on topic.

I think custom lore would be a great opportunity to shake things up in the RP world. For certain, it would fix a lot of the glaring plot holes and inconsistencies Blizzard has left lying around.

What I'm hoping for, however, is for things to be focused on more small-scale stuff that sets up a series of larger events. I, personally speaking, do not want to be Frodo Baggins; I don't want to be the sole hero that swoops in to single-handedly save the whole world from the Big Bad by going on a Hero's Journey. What I'd rather be, is be a small dude somewhere who gets sucked into a small event somewhere, that shapes another event somewhere else, that sets a whole bunch of other small things in motion that all add up to something much larger than anything anyone could conceive of.

That, to me, is what makes RP fun and interesting. Small pieces that add up to a larger whole.

Also, one of the major problems I've seen on COTH--and RP servers in general--is the lack of what I call intersectional plots. As in, too often clusters of players remain in their own separate bubbles, completely isolated from other players. I see it everywhere in the general RP world, and I think it's the reason why so many guilds die out.

For example, let's take three hypothetical guild archetypes. One is an old-Horde military guild, the other is a Blood Elf Noble House, and another is a Dwarven expedition company. We've seen these types of guilds many, many times before. And we've seen them all go through the motions of starting up, going on for awhile, and then eventually deflating away into nothing. They're RP Bubbles.

The three guilds may simultaneously exist at the same time, and definitely exist in the same world. However, very rarely do any of these guilds or even individual characters ever cross paths. The Orc Grunts never so much as learn of the existence of the Blood Elf noblemen, let alone get wind of what the Dwarves have dug up. And because of that, not much of a plot--outside of the guild's individual events--gets developed. The players never interact with one another.

There's no rivalry, friendships, or conflicts that get forged. No grudges, no secret unexpected romances, no political intrigue--nothing. As a result, the server population--which is already on the low side--feels isolated, insignificant, and small. Fragmented, into little pockets. And once a few certain key players become inactive due to real life obligations, the RP stagnates and dies altogether.

If the guilds were all forced to interact with each other, then maybe the cycle of RP Bubbles would stop. And the best way to do that, I think, is through having custom lore that kinda knocks everyone together.

What I'd hope for custom lore is to have it be the vehicle which brings multiple factions and players together. Get the guilds knocking into each other, get the unguilded mixed up in all of it. Have a series of small events that snowball into something big and unexpected. That, I think, would be the best possible outcome. And I think we could do it, yeah.
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