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Cross faction RP.
#16
Well, the Battlegrounds are also another thing that were thrown in rather illogically to make PvP easier to find and more organized. Alterac Valley in particular doesn't have a serious Frostwolf presence if War3 and the D20 books are to be believed.

It's another one of those things that you have to realize were put in to make it a GAME, and not a WORLD, per se.
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#17
Right... the age old debate of Lore vs. Mechanics surfaces once again. I guess I'll throw in my two cents...

First of, I believe this server was created with the purpose of allowing RPers to have a much more conducive environment in which they can do what they do best i.e. RP.

With that as a basis, we can work on explaining my own personal standpoint in this issue. Though the game mechanics are available in this realm, I think they should be taken with a grain of salt. Everything from our homes to our uber legendary weapons kind of blow game mechanics out the water. Since this world was created for us to have a better chance at more customizable RP that didn't require us to bend and buckle to the rules of a live gaming server, it only seems logical that we would be allowed more liberties with regards to role playing.

These liberties could be anything from having factions like Drel/Joshiro emerge, who obviously are not part of the Horde, to things like cross factional RP. From what I know, the forsaken knowing common and the cross faction emotes on the live server were changed because most gamers abused that ability. I think on this server, the likelihood of people abusing those mechanics would be slim to none.

If people are able to create a character that is working towards bringing the two factions together, perhaps say... a diplomat of some sort. I see no reason whatsoever that they should be restricted from doing so if they can justify it in the context of the lore. Likewise for complete opposite characters who want to bring down their "own faction", if they can justify their actions as being consistent with the lore and the personality of their characters, then so be it.

The only restrictions I would apply to any character are those of the general rules of RP. I.e no Mary Sues and no god moding unless it is the express wish of all RPers involved for something to happen to their characters. Let's not get caught up in balance of classes or game mechanics or anything of that sort. Live servers have plenty of that. We cannot possibly change this server so much as to be able to have the mechanics perfectly suit our every whim, it is also unrealistic for us to expect Kretol and Grakor to reshape the world as such. Unless you plan on paying them millions of dollars for the time they would have to invest in re-writing ridiculous amount of coding that is.

Viridis, I still do not understand why you cannot accept Joshiro/Drel trying to make pacts with those he sees as being other "factions". Isn't it logical that his character would try to either rally others to his cause or try and wipe them out? Key word.. "try", after all he is who he is, and most tyrants have the skewed view of everyone being either "with them or against them", I suppose this isn't the time or place, so that is for another discussion.

Anyway, so that the wall of text does not crit anyone in the face... basically I am all for more freedom in RP, i.e cross factional RP if it is justifiable within the lore of WoW. If you want my reasoning, feel free to be crit in the face by the wall of text.... errr... I mean, read through my points >.> yes.... *coughcough*

(edited: for speellingz lulz)
"Love's not a mystery... It's everything"
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#18
Well, firstly.
AIRS /agree, Drelgar /agree,
A couple things that I find particularly obnoxious on the concept;
All of the work that the GM's have gone through for this private server to make it a flexible , fun, RP focused environment for everyone. Somehow it seems like people are still nit-picking at some things. I hope we're not taking Kretol's work for granted? Everytime I log on I see him bustin' his tail on the server doing something for someone, or fixing something.
And then again, why is Drelgar's example being dug back up and exploited to prove a point? That's slightly uncalled for. That topic was covered, discussed and put to a close. That's asking to stir up drama by remaking an example of it. – Though I reinforce Drelgar's statement that his character was enacting a neutral faction tyrant role purely for the attempt to corrupt BOTH factions. I think this is the “gray area” earlier mentioned. But I digress.

I second Grakor's statement on “neutral” characters. I know there are some of us that have such characters with those sort of backgrounds. (Mine for example though she ended up more Horde affiliated) Never the less, having an alliance character myself. I haven't thought it to be an excessive problem simply for the fact that the only times my draenei mage visits Orgrimmar is typically purely OOC just to buy items because they are not available elsewhere. – Viridis seemed to agree with Grakor's statement that I just reinforced as well, however.
Nevertheless, I'm not about to complain that she has to travel to Orgrimmar just to get the items she needs, because everything is provided for her. I don't feel I have the right to complain. I'm not the one running this server, or maintaining it. Frankly, I wouldn't want to, either.
But again, if game mechanics, and black-and-white lore is that horribly important. This is what we have our live server for. CotH was meant to break that mold, not recreate it.
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#19
Of the things unnecessarily said, I don't believe using Drelgar's SL as an exmple is one of them. There have been moody retorts that have left me confounded - I was bringing this up as a concern of mine, and it's fine if you don't agree, but don't go waving lore in my face like I'm some idiot that needs to be schooled. I prefer the line of separation because it provides a clear enemy, rather than vilifying a PC the same degree. I never said I had a problem with Dreglar having his own faction - hell, I've created two factions myself. My problem was the fact that it felt like it'd be a force impossible to overcome because he's a strong PC. I'd much rather have the focus of my character's ire be firmly secured on an NPC - they cause far less drama.

Another problem that I have with this thread is the constant feel that I require absolute black and white lore, that I have "pretty black and white token characters" and other such nonsense. Yes, that's entirely true - just don't pay attention to the fact that I've made other races, created other storylines, and I've been working my butt off to think up fun events to create.

One problem that everyone (except Grakor) seems to be having is that they are misunderstanding what it is my original post was saying. Have all the grey characters you want, make your elf fart around with goblins - I don't care. I just think that strutting into any of the opposing capitals should be a bigger deal. Maybe keep a low profile because, like I said, not every orc is Thrall - there's going to be a few that want to remove your face and I'd like to think that's being reflected in the RP.

I've seen so many arguments for breaking the WoW mold with this server and we are - we have homes, don't we? Armies? Pirates? I came here because I enjoy RPing inside of WoW and I guess, most of all, I don't want to log on one day and not recognize the game it's supposed to be based on.
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#20
All I know is that I've tried to entertain everyone by having a villainous character that could trigger the community to band together, or react in any way they so choose. If anyone doesn't want to be a part of the arc, just say so, I'll strike anything we've done from memory and pretend like it never happened. For the record, I am not trying to make the Bloodgrin arc uberly powerful to the point that he will be guaranteed to defeat anyone that goes up against him. Hell... with the amount of enemies he's made, the clan will most likely be stretched so thin that he could only afford to send a very very minor group of Fel Orcs to any one area at a time. Honestly I'm not going to go over this in any other posts again so I'll just say this now... The Bloodgrin Clan is NOT supposed to win at everything... it is meant to have those people that wish to participate in it, be able to join it or work to destroy it, much like the sorrow plague storyline on the live server. Ok? Done...? Good...

Anyway, the point of this thread was the concern over cross faction RP. Like I said, we should have the freedom to have those grey characters. I don't see how having a member of a "non-horde" race in the capital city would be seen as absolute taboo. I do agree however that you have to be prepared for some less then welcoming reaction by certain players or npcs.

There really are no clear lines if you support neutral-ish characters. To your characters personally, you can obviously make out that you have clear distinctions and prejudices, but in reality that is just one point of view. Of course there has to be an enemy to keep things interesting, but that enemy could be anyone or anything depending on your perspective. It is up to all of us to take part in certain lines or just not participate in them. Don't force everyone to any single way of thinking.

As yet, I have yet to come to know of any arcs that can potentially destroy the game and turn it on its head. I definitely agree that there is a huge difference between WoW lore and Warcraft lore since WoW lore attempts to include blizzards trivialization of the story to make for a more "gamer" friendly world.

Basically... I really don't think that there is anything to be concerned about with storylines as yet. I havn't seen an excessive amount of Alliance folk in capital cities myself nor have heard of any such thing occurring. Most that I see in the cities are just there on OOC basis anyway.
"Love's not a mystery... It's everything"
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#21
I said moody retorts, Drel, towards me and regarding my opinion on the x-faction RP. The only way your storyline fits in this whole thing was as an example - I am not reopening that subject.
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#22
Yes and I edited my post accordingly after re-reading your post and seeing you type retorts not reports.

That's fine... don't reopen the subject, I don't really know why you had to make an example of my arc anyway. Anytime that my villain was in a horde city, it was for purely OOC purposes. Sure it has cross faction ramifications, but surely you realize that his main aim is to rework the Horde, not the Alliance?

So far I have not seen one post that is moody by anyone else regarding this topic. AIRs as I saw was merely responding logically. I admit that I however am a little sore and tired about this whole thing about my storyline. If people are honestly so unhappy with it, then tell me and I will stop playing it out.
"Love's not a mystery... It's everything"
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#23
Alright, here we go...

First off, talk of Drelgar's RP really does not belong here. This thread talks about cross-factional RP as it deals with the Horde and Alliance. Speaking about a specific story arc should be kept to its own thread. (Edit: And please avoid finger-pointing. If you re-read the thread, the person who initially brought up Drelgar's line at all was not who you think it was.)

On that note, on a few topics that I've talked about before:

Game mechanics are here to stay. This is still World of Warcraft for better or worse. If Kretol and I did not care at all about the mechanics, we would not instate rules such as the disallowance of Gift/Wrath/Custom Weapons in PvP situations or in duels. If all we wanted is RP within Warcraft's setting, we could do that on a forum or a text-based mud. The "legendary weapons" are there to make PvE easier, and Kretol and I do intend to make at least some things to have to be worked toward (trade skills have to have some effort put into them at least, and we're discussing whether there will have to be some sort of work done to get reputation with other factions, though certainly not the grind required on Live.)

As for D20, not everyone who plays WoW has the D20 books. While they are good sources of information on lore and the history/personality of the races, they should not (IMO) necessarily contradict what is put in place by the game itself. This is simply because, again, not everyone has the books, while everyone has the game and likely played it on Live. It's far easier to go with the explanation that there is indeed fighting still going on in WSG/AB/AV/EotS than to wave it off because some book says different.

Regardless, if someone wants to create a new topic to discuss another RP line, feel free to do so. For now, let's keep this thread on topic about Horde vs. Alliance, and let's keep it civil.
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#24
“ but don't go waving lore in my face like I'm some idiot that needs to be schooled. “
First of all, I'm not. So, there isn't a necessity to jump down my throat on the defensive about it. No one is questioning your lore knowledge – or at least, I'm not.
However your initial comment incorporated lore therefore lore was addressed, end. Further more, you don't see it unnecessary to use Drelgar's SL as an example. Hmm, well you're right. I do view it as unnecessary simply because he's dealt with enough criticism, and drama regarding the topic. And to bring it back up again, however directly or indirectly on forums, no less. Is throwing it back up in his face. So here it's not an issue of being right; but an issue of taking a friend's feelings into consideration over beating a dead horse. I'm sure everyone would expect the same courtesy. There are better examples that can be used, or fabricated if need be.
And addressing the next mentioning of his character being “impossible to overcome” no one ever claimed he was “impossible to over come”. Strong does not equal impossible to defeat. This is why his redemption was in the works on the storyline because no one *initially* had any plans of any characters dying. Including Drelgar. This does not however speak for the events that took place in the end. But I digress on the idea that Drelgar earlier stated this is not the time or place to discuss that storyline, it's done it's over. Let it lie.
No one's changing the face of the game. No one's attempting to. If they are, I have not personally witnessed it, myself. I reiterate my earlier statement(in concern to “Alliance poking around Horde major cities”) that the only occasions I have (as my alliance) or witnessed another Alliance poking around Horde major cities was generally Orgrimmar (OOCly) obtaining the items they needed that were supplied there. Or simply, to attack some of the NPCs (ICly). What? Alliance and Horde working together for like causes? If this was part of the debate. That's feasible as well, it's happened in the course of WoW history. Why wouldn't it again, if a big enough threat arose?
Seeing as no one's really changed the face of things. I don't really see grounds for any real debate or argument. So why is this topic still rolling? I think all points have been cleared and covered well enough.
Unless there was some sort of dire mistake made somewhere, I think I'm more or less done.
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#25
Quote:Grakor456 wrote:
Alright, here we go...

First off, talk of Drelgar's RP really does not belong here. This thread talks about cross-factional RP as it deals with the Horde and Alliance. Speaking about a specific story arc should be kept to its own thread. (Edit: And please avoid finger-pointing. If you re-read the thread, the person who initially brought up Drelgar's line at all was not who you think it was.)

On that note, on a few topics that I've talked about before:

Game mechanics are here to stay. This is still World of Warcraft for better or worse. If Kretol and I did not care at all about the mechanics, we would not instate rules such as the disallowance of Gift/Wrath/Custom Weapons in PvP situations or in duels. If all we wanted is RP within Warcraft's setting, we could do that on a forum or a text-based mud. The "legendary weapons" are there to make PvE easier, and Kretol and I do intend to make at least some things to have to be worked toward (trade skills have to have some effort put into them at least, and we're discussing whether there will have to be some sort of work done to get reputation with other factions, though certainly not the grind required on Live.)

As for D20, not everyone who plays WoW has the D20 books. While they are good sources of information on lore and the history/personality of the races, they should not (IMO) necessarily contradict what is put in place by the game itself. This is simply because, again, not everyone has the books, while everyone has the game and likely played it on Live. It's far easier to go with the explanation that there is indeed fighting still going on in WSG/AB/AV/EotS than to wave it off because some book says different.

Regardless, if someone wants to create a new topic to discuss another RP line, feel free to do so. For now, let's keep this thread on topic about Horde vs. Alliance, and let's keep it civil.

Agreed. I apologize the topic carried this far. I'm finished.
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#26
Read the whole thread before you respond to me with these jumpy defenses - I am defending myself from snarky comments made in regards to me by, specifically, AIRs. If you read what I say and it doesn't apply to your post, then it's obviously not meant for you. I'm becoming very frustrated with this idea that I am drama mongering - I didn't bring up the other thread, AIRs did, and I defended myself from the "weren't you complaining over here" nonsense.

This thread has gone above the mark of heated discussion and straight into the seventh armpit of hell. I apologize - I won't be bringing up any concerns I have in a public form again. Instead, I'll just take things directly to the GMs instead of expecting people to respond rationally and with maturity.

If this thread could be locked, I would appreciate it. Thanks, Kretol, you're the best darn demi-God around. ;)
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#27
I want to tell you that I love each and every one of you. I didn't mean for anything I said to sound harsh, if I did. I only meant it to spark conversation! =x

Anyhow, I plan on having more stuff up with Xeruel and Kenji later (I'm at work right now, so maybe sometime tonight whilest my class is doing boring stuff.)

So I hope that I can RP with you guys through one of them if not Kendei =D
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#28
I was just pointing out the obvious, not being snarky.
#29
While I have my opinions on this, and words, I have never been one to get my point across very well and as such I just dont take part in these discussions much at all. But there has been quite alot of missuderstanding here... Yes llet this thread be locked, the deal is through. :|
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."
-Take nothing for granted. -
[Image: tumblr_m3fonvvR601qktztio3_250.gif]
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#30
I do not find "This thread fails" to be "just pointing out the obvious." You may disagree with what she says, but that does not make this thread a waste of space.

Logical debate is fine. Some of the comments made in this thread are not.

Edited since AIRS edited hers.
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