Poll: How do you think custom lore should be done, with regards to the canon storyline?
Go full out and change the canon story line, both in the minor details and the major outcomes.
Only touch up canon lore, changing details to improve the writing but not changing outcomes.
Do not touch canon story lines at all.
I have another opinion and will post below!
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Custom Lore Poll, Part 2!
#16
It occured to me that we should probably address other ideas on "custom lore," as "lore" isn't just a matter of what happens when. For example:

Coming up with a "CotH Official" canon for the Troll loa- essentially borrowing from IRL parallels, RPG sources and other canon, coming up with profiles for at least the Darkspear pantheon with as much depth as we have for other dieties, like Cenarius or the Titans. Being able to operate on certain ideas as though they were canon would give troll roleplayers a lot more to go on than just "I worship a bat who... does bat things??"
Other races and cultures also have major holes in lore that we could fill for the sake of enriching roleplay.

Borrowing from ideas that haven't happened yet but are proven possible in later canon- such as half-humanoid druid forms. Considering that CotH tends to want to develop ideas instead of having them just exist, if this were to happen, there would probably be RP leading to such a development.

Also, new classes/ "power" sources? Many of you may know I've been working on a proposed revamp for the Sisters of Steel and/or Dwarven avatars. One of the big features here is that this would be a faction/path/class variant that would be available to all Titan races, including what are ultimately human variants: worgen and Forsaken.
I'm still hammering out the details and awaiting more official details from the mods in general on custom lore, but feel it is still worth addressing. These questions apply not just to what I've proposed above, but to any future ideas for new classes.

1. How do you feel about making certain RPG classes canon? This would presumably involve tweaks to work better with WoW and CotH's policies as well as possible story retcons and/or RP events that make it actually happen.

2. How do you feel about races that don't have previously canon compatibility with certain "patron powers" receiving them through roleplay? This wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with RPG lore. Examples include the above Forsaken getting powers based on the Titans, but would also include an Orc worshipping Loa or Draenei calling upon the spirits of their ancestors like orcs do.
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#17
@Dae , I think I'm in love with your post right now. This is basically the stuff I want to see because if you do it properly, it won't effect the main Canon Lore and etc. Why can't I have this?


Loas are powerful spirits who have been a part of the world predating even the titans. Countless Loa exist, most weak, but some very powerful. Most are shapeless, whereas others have animal or creature forms. Loas can grant wondrous boons or inflict terrible punishments to trolls, and all trolls are blessed with some regeneration by them. Zandalari families often worship their own family loas, cities usually have their own civic deities, and the greatest loa are worshiped by the nation as a whole. Powerful, enlightened Zandalari can become loas upon their death - or so it is believed. While they grant extraordinary powers, they are not as powerful as full-blown gods. Different troll tribes may call upon different sets of loa.
- http://wowpedia.org/Loa

There is sooooooo much you can do with this when it comes to Custom Lore. I'm for that idea, like a lot. This will allow a player to make up a Loa and we can add it onto a page on COTH Canon Lore. It will allow players to also make connections by worshiping the same Loa and even probably making rivalries if a Loa is an enemy of another Loa. And you don't really force anyone to choose what they want to worship since Loa are on an endless scale technically.

Make me a new religion~

Research and development on new spells would be great!

I'm also for new classes and putting in some of the RPG classes in, since there's a lot of possibilities in Azeroth.

#scatterbrained reply
Quote:"Your faction is the underdog right?
You always lose and suck at everything.
You lose towns, people and your second in command is a 14-year old who uses dark magic on his protectors and runs away alone the the wilderness."
- Panoss from the WoW retail forums
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#18
So, I'm going to chime in with a reply of my own, since we're talking about the pros and cons of the options we're discussing. I had a talk with a couple of the GMs about this not long ago, so I kind of wanted to put forth my own opinion and sort of organize my own thoughts here.

When it comes to going without touching canon lore at all, I see this route as self-defeating. In the end, we already allow for a good range of additions to lore so long as it doesn't mess with the canon stuff. Sure, we could open up a few more possibilities, but to me it seems like not touching canon lore makes the entire exercise a bit pointless. Adding things like custom spell research, etc. could at least partially already be done, and the rest could have been enabled without this much fanfare.

This leads to the second option, which is simply touching up the lore without changing the ultimate outcomes. To me, this is also self-defeating, though in a different way. To use the Garrosh comparison again because it's a pet peeve and it's the problem most people are familiar with: what is the practical difference between Garrosh just randomly flipping out for no reason as in canon lore, or the touched up version of him being a generally good, if flawed, man that is corrupted and undone by the Sha due to his pride? Sure, the latter makes a better and more coherent story, but to our characters the difference may as well not exist, as most won't even know the difference. To this end, it feels like we'd only be making changes for our own personal peace of mind, rather than to enrich roleplay.

This leads to going to full blown custom lore. This provides the most freedom to allow folks to tell the stories they want to tell. It gives the most freedom for PCs to help shape and decide how the overall story plays out. To me, this is what I assume when most people say they want "custom lore", so that this is even a debate is actually surprising to me.

Now, that said, I am not ignorant to the possible pit-falls of this option. I know that a lot of our initial motivation for this desire for custom lore is a desire to see certain bits of lore that we find personally offensive "corrected." I know that some of us might want to see this because we have grown tired of Warcraft as a setting in general. I also know that there is the danger of, in our hubris of thinking we can do significantly better, we end up doing something just as bad. However, I think these personal failings can be overlooked when we instead look to the potential benefits. Yes, it -would- be nice if players and events had more say in how Warcraft's story shapes up. Yes, it -would- be nice if the story was fresh and surprising again. Yes, it -would- be nice to actually put the lore figures to use again, and have them actually doing things and interacting with player characters in some way. So on and so forth.

I think that so long as we reign ourselves in, this is the best option. That is just my opinion, don't take that as me mandating that is where we will go. I am merely expressing my confusion as to where this hesitation came from, when it didn't seem to be here for the past five years when everyone was asking for conquest RP, custom lore, etc.

RE: Sin'sholai. I know someone mentioned it, and I know that there was apparently some grumbling when I said we wouldn't be doing things on that scale again. To clarify: my position is that I really don't want to put forth lore that -hinders- RP rather than promoting it. One of the downfalls of the Sin'sholai story arc is that it -killed- RP for the old Horde races during its duration (hence why about half-way through we did an about-face and brought the elves back into the Horde.) We won't be splitting factions again, that much I can promise, because I don't want that aspect to ever return. Beyond that? I don't know, we'll have to see.

This is all my opinion, I am not speaking for the rest of the GM team, etc. etc. Normal disclaimer.

Edit: With regards to comments about this being a knee-jerk to MoP and WoD: I think there's a lot more wrong with Cataclysm lore than just Garrosh, so I don't think that's a proper response. Aggra being a non-character, orc characterization in general, the beginning of Varian's "I can do no wrong" streak, "AND NEW LIFE", etc. There's more to hate here. Cataclysm was, to me at least, the first real sign of a massive downturn in WoW lore, whereas BC was a small dip.
Have you hugged an orc today?
- I am not tech support. Please do not contact me regarding technical issues. -
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#19
@Grakor456, for saying BC was a dip in lore I demand u fite me IRL m8 (because that was quite possibly my favorite expansion, if only because Outland is beautiful).

Otherwise, that outlines exactly the kind of argument that I think can sway my position in favor of custom lore. My major reservations came from working on the Sin'sholai and other events during my tenure as a GM that were too starry-eyed and waaaaay overreached our ability to successfully manage and conclude them. From your post and @Reigen's it's clear that the admins/GMs have some sense of the fact that things can get out of hand, but also that the server has always had some level of player involvement. If anything, knowing that you guys absolutely understand why certain things haven't worked in the past, I'm even more excited to see what we can do with the future of the game-world when all of the stories we've put so much time into can have an impact.

My one major suggestion is to keep much better records on the wiki. I've thought about doing this a few times for OOC info, since there are some things (like special profile/CMC info) that aren't easy to get to on the wiki, but haven't gotten around to it. If or when things start to become server-canon we should really have them all easily accessible to newbies so there's no learning curve.

Also I had a question as to what you meant by spell research in the second paragraph. I only skimmed the thread, but is that something that was posted about in here or is researching and teaching spells to your class an example of player-motivated lore changes? I don't want to derail the thread, so I guess PM me if you want to answer that.
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#20
Quote:since there are some things (like special profile/CMC info) that aren't easy to get to on the wiki

FIGHT ME 1V1 @Kaghuros

http://wiki.conquestofthehorde.com/Category:Special

http://wiki.conquestofthehorde.com/Categ...stom_model

(On the wiki, go to character profiles - special (or custom model) and it brings that page.)

(We plan on being better with the wiki should this go though. I personally love updating the wiki.)
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#21
Quote:It feels like we'd only be making changes for our own personal peace of mind, rather than to enrich roleplay.
- @Grakor456

That statement is basically how it feels about this whole Custom Lore topic.

"We should touch up and rewrite things to enrich roleplay for our own personal peace of mind!"

I feel like people don't realize that there's so much you can do without touching Lore Figures and Main Storylines. Blizzard does eventually go back to touch up things once in awhile, especially with the expansions to come. They're even updating player models finally. Blizzard has a lot to do and they can do so much, some things get the axe if they don't make the deadlines. Maybe we should stop being so impatient and play with what we already have. Blizzard will eventually explain things to us. If we really want to start rewriting things and changing the game, it best not be the World of Warcraft universe anymore, to Fanfiction Land we go.

The World of Warcraft universe is vast compared to what's in-game. I really think the focus on the Custom Lore topic should be, what specifically will be okay to add into the game. May I emphasis "add", because that would mean no changes or rewrites, only additions.

There's so much you can do. We may rely too much on the storylines in-game to make events to pop up interest on the server. And it's a possibility some players don't seem pumped up for them because they've played the game and are bored of what they've already been through OOCly. What events are people pumped up for? Events that can happen in the World of Warcraft universe, but have nothing to really do with Canon Lore usually. Something they haven't experienced within the World of Warcraft universe before and could only be obtained through imagined situations via RP.

So, honestly we're wanting to change the story to gain interest again? I'm not for that, might as well be RPing in an alternate universe. I don't see a point in it when there's so many things to RP already and custom lore additions to be made to the server to make it more exciting.

Perhaps we're talking about this now because we want to jump into the fray, but are too scared to take it? People not wanting their ideas crushed by the GMs, keeping it to themselves. Maybe people have an idea, but can't seem to go in depth with it or don't think it's worth the effort or believe no one will join. Like myself, I don't propose my ideas of RP events and the alike because I feel they're too big, fitting under heavy Custom Lore. I want to make things, but I'm reluctant to try when they might as well get shot down, especially after being so excited about the idea.

I want to have cities and towns rise up! I want factions that are strong as the in-game canon factions! I want spells to be discovered and invented! I want custom made deities, religions, and philosophies to be followed! I want a legendary item questlines! I want to experience adventure!

I want to know how much freedom I have with Custom Lore when it comes to that and see where things cross the line.

Again, I don't wish to interfere with Custom Lore that would poke at Lore Figures or the Main Storylines and the alike. I just want additions that would be possible in the World of Warcraft universe.
Quote:"Your faction is the underdog right?
You always lose and suck at everything.
You lose towns, people and your second in command is a 14-year old who uses dark magic on his protectors and runs away alone the the wilderness."
- Panoss from the WoW retail forums
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#22
Quote:Aggra being a non-character

Got to admit, this was I believe one of the first things I saw on retail while questing that made me go "WTF IS DIS". Never finished the storyline, Thrall is still stuck in some crystal for me. Wouldn't mind erasing her. Next up was probably Jaina going full-blown racist and ruining the diplomacy with the blood elves.. They may have returned to the Alliance. .. The purging in Dalaran.. The mana bomb that didn't kill her.. I mean, I wouldn't mind seeing that all go; Just not sure if we should start there.

Anyway, I am not sure what else to add beyond that. I can accept option 1 easily as well. Changed my vote to the 4th option because of that.

Edit; Still also thinking of custom lore as in towns, factions, cities and all that stuff.
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#23
Quote:Next up was probably Jaina going full-blown racist and ruining the diplomacy with the blood elves.. They may have returned to the Alliance. .. The purging in Dalaran.. The mana bomb that didn't kill her.. I mean, I wouldn't mind seeing that all go; Just not sure if we should start there.
- @Psychyn

Jaina was forced to leave Theramore through a portal by Rhonin, who sacrificed himself as a shield when the mana bomb dropped. Though Jaina survived, the blast of the mana bomb even hit where she was teleported to, causing her to radiate with arcane energy. Kalec tried to stop her from returning to Theramore, but she went anyway. She was horrified to see the loss of Theramore and the deaths of her friend and people. Then she saw the corpse of her apprentice, the young gnome's body crumbling to dust at Jaina's touch. That was the moment when Jaina snapped and wanted revenge on the Horde.

After planning, she ventures out to destroy Orgrimmar. Then Thrall comes into the picture, trying stop Jaina from drowning Orgrimmar. They fight because Jaina believes that her plan is doing what's right. Kalec comes to the rescue and Jaina comes to her senses when she's told she's being an Arthas. She finds it hard to call Thrall a friend since he was the one who put Garrosh in charge. Then she gets a blue dragon boyfriend and becomes the leader of the Kirin Tor.

So then, Varian wants to Jaina to shoo the blood elves from Dalaran since the Sunreavers are apart of the Horde. She refused because she wished to maintain the city's neutrality. Despite her efforts, Garrosh obtained the Divine Bell. She found evidence that someone familiar with the Kirin Tor and the Dalaran portal network had helped aid in the theft, a Blood Elf within the Sunreavers that followed under Garrosh's orders. Then.. THE PURGE!!!

So, she's been stabbed in the back twice, but that's putting it in light terms. I think her character is pretty reasonable, if not very. I like to joke about her ruining the Alliance reunion with the Blood Elves, but she really has a good reason to be how she is right now..
Quote:"Your faction is the underdog right?
You always lose and suck at everything.
You lose towns, people and your second in command is a 14-year old who uses dark magic on his protectors and runs away alone the the wilderness."
- Panoss from the WoW retail forums
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#24
I voted for option one but I feel that we should focus on more expanding and explaining the current lore before adding on and re-writing. For example, we all have our own views on Shamanism but it isn't quite clear and cut what it is, if we could add a description it would make much more sense. What I am basically saying is that we should flesh out the things that Blizzard have just left and characters that have been forgotten making them all relevant again. Then we can move on to adding custom lore. To put what I want into a metaphor, I feel we should fill the cracks in the road before adding more too it, add more details and side stories that may be affected by the story. To give an example how is the war of Ashenvale being affected by Death wing?
Those that run from their past are engulfed by it.
Those that fight their heritage, are beaten back down.
Those who accept themselves and use their past as a strength...
These are the ones that are truly strong.
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#25
(08-13-2014, 10:32 PM)Kaghuros Wrote: @Grakor456, for saying BC was a dip in lore I demand u fite me IRL m8 (because that was quite possibly my favorite expansion, if only because Outland is beautiful).

---

Also I had a question as to what you meant by spell research in the second paragraph. I only skimmed the thread, but is that something that was posted about in here or is researching and teaching spells to your class an example of player-motivated lore changes? I don't want to derail the thread, so I guess PM me if you want to answer that.

My problem with BC was mostly due to what I considered unnecessary retcons. The draenei are a walking plot-hole whose complete revamp added very little to the race, other than needlessly complicating things.

And yeah, the spell research thing was mentioned above, if you want to read other people's posts.

(08-14-2014, 02:55 AM)Alliicce Wrote: I feel like people don't realize that there's so much you can do without touching Lore Figures and Main Storylines. Blizzard does eventually go back to touch up things once in awhile, especially with the expansions to come. They're even updating player models finally. Blizzard has a lot to do and they can do so much, some things get the axe if they don't make the deadlines. Maybe we should stop being so impatient and play with what we already have. Blizzard will eventually explain things to us. If we really want to start rewriting things and changing the game, it best not be the World of Warcraft universe anymore, to Fanfiction Land we go.

The World of Warcraft universe is vast compared to what's in-game. I really think the focus on the Custom Lore topic should be, what specifically will be okay to add into the game. May I emphasis "add", because that would mean no changes or rewrites, only additions.

So, here's the thing: we already pretty much allow additions. Here's the catch, though...a lot of the hesitation we have when it comes to adding certain things is due to our concern about altering canon lore. If we move ahead with the cleansing of Eversong, the rebuilding of the Exodar, the institution of a new, massive faction within the game...what happens when lore comes on down the line that contradicts these possibilities? If we are free from the constraints of canon lore, then we don't have to deal with these worries.

At the same time, there's good reason we want to alter some of these events. The fact that Garrosh flip-flopped between personalities, goes crazy for no provoked reason, and gets one-shotted by Thrall is canon lore. It's staying. Forever. It's never going away from Warcraft canon. No amount of time in the future will change that. Blizzard may touch up models and it may add things, but outside of a few major retcons from past games, they don't make a habit of retconning major plot points within WoW itself (Varian hijacking the Onyxia kill aside.) To this end, this isn't about being impatient, it's more about being dissatisfied with what Blizzard has given us. With waiting being a non-option given that what we are waiting for will never arrive (that being a rewrite to the lore to make it make sense,) the only options available to us are just ignore it, leave, or take matters into our own hands.

Changing canon events can have an impact on our characters. This isn't just about peace of mind, after all, although I will concede that this has been a prime motivator. This is also about enriching roleplay by allowing more for characters to do.

And honestly, I find the accusation of this possibility being "fan-fiction" a little ironic, given that Warlords of Draenor is the most ambitious piece of fan-fiction I've ever seen. That said, just because our efforts are fan-fiction, doesn't mean that they're bad.

(08-14-2014, 04:43 AM)Alliicce Wrote: So, she's been stabbed in the back twice, but that's putting it in light terms. I think her character is pretty reasonable, if not very. I like to joke about her ruining the Alliance reunion with the Blood Elves, but she really has a good reason to be how she is right now..

I think the main issue with Jaina is how her reaction to events was rather disproportionate to what provoked it. You want Jaina to undergo a heel-turn, that's fine. What's not really fine is how a character that was once characterized by being one of the most sympathetic and open characters in the franchise, who knew and trusted Thrall for a long time, suddenly turns into some weird mash-up between Grima Wormtongue and Cruella DeVille. Sure, be angry at Garrosh, at his faction of orcs, at the blood elves, whatever. But good god, what the heck provoked that outburst in the MoP Alliance ending cinematic?

That's just my opinion, though. At least they tried to justify Jaina's sudden shift of character, which is more than what Garrosh and Varian ever got.
Have you hugged an orc today?
- I am not tech support. Please do not contact me regarding technical issues. -
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#26
@Alliicce

Quote:Though Jaina survived, the blast of the mana bomb even hit where she was teleported to

Should have killed her in my book. But that is my own personal opinion.

Quote: Despite her efforts, Garrosh obtained the Divine Bell. She found evidence that someone familiar with the Kirin Tor and the Dalaran portal network had helped aid in the theft, a Blood Elf within the Sunreavers that followed under Garrosh's orders.

So she ignores all the other Blood Elves there and decides to go on a rampage. Not quite as reasonable in my head; Garrosh had a spy/ally/companion in the Sunreavers, let's purge the entire faction for the deeds of one.

Honestly, as much as you may believe it to be appropriate and right -- I don't. Such is a difference in opinions, and It is lore I'd like to see that changed over time; But that is me personally. I still do not believe we should start there, but I do believe it'd be something that can be looked at after some other lore snippets and regions are done. Expanded upon, altered in ways that may either make her character more sense or just kills her off from the mana bomb.
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#27
Quote: If we move ahead with the cleansing of Eversong, the rebuilding of the Exodar, the institution of a new, massive faction within the game...what happens when lore comes on down the line that contradicts these possibilities?

A server restart whenever we get to that particular patch/expansion. If ever. Retcons and restarts are nothing new to CotH.
Your stories will always remain...
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... as will your valiant hearts.
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#28
(08-14-2014, 11:47 AM)CappnRob Wrote: A server restart whenever we get to that particular patch/expansion. If ever. Retcons and restarts are nothing new to CotH.

While true, we don't make a habit of provoking hard restarts unless they are necessary.
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#29
That's why I said when/if we reach the expansion wherein such lore becomes relevant :P We're still in Cata right now, if WoD does something to mess up Eversong or change it, we'd have to wait till we got there to even worry about a retcon or a hard restart.
Your stories will always remain...
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... as will your valiant hearts.
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#30
The greatest problem with custom lore is how it can stymie new players, I think, not the potential for gamemasters going out of control with their decisions or making poor ones in the heat of the moment.

A mess made can be cleaned up at any time. It can even be subjected to retroactive continuity the next day.

A new player who finds it difficult to get involved or enjoy the server's rich, wonderful history might be a great contributor to the community that the community will never get back.

If you do this, I unprofessionally recommend the following:
  • A strict and well-organized forum, with threads related to every lore character puppeted by the gamemasters. Gamemasters will record what they did as these NPCs, preferably in the form of logs, to ensure consistency between them and other or future members of staff.
    • This coordinating forum may also benefit from a secondary board for story arc notes.



  • An accessible, delighting way for new or returning players to catch up with the divergent story. Scattered testaments of lore, for example, books written by players and gamemasters that can be found throughout the world. Secrets and intrigues that are meant to be unraveled by the tenacious scholar. A permanent announcement declaring when, exactly, the course of server history deviated from Blizzard Entertainment's interpretation. Et cetera.
I'm sure veteran players will be glad to see their names sprout up, here and there, or explore these caches themselves. I also encourage you to lighten the prejudice against truly world-shaking leaps of prominence, if a player proves clever, lucky, and skilled enough for the task...

...and willing to brave a very real risk for a very permanent death.
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