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Gender. Is it offensive?
#16
half the people I run into don't bother to read TRP,
the other half don't have it
What's the point
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#17
Jungle trolls don't have that much difference, Xigo! God!

If I saw a character with a female avatar, I'm going to assume "woman". Not "Maybe that's a guy, and he just has nice curves, and breasts, and a badonk-a-donk". So either you're saying "Is a guy!" in emotes or saying OOC "Is a guy!"

So same amount of work, really.
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#18
[Image: GnZym8m.gif]

Alright, alright. Reading of all this, I can see where people are coming from... sort of.

So far, I see a handful of points:

You've got your 'It's the same amount of work to describe your character not having breasts and child-baring hips, right?' talking points here.

You've got your 'Someone ruined it for everyone, and over-sexualized their characters' here.

And of course you've got the 'We don't want to offend anyone by mix-and-matching/confusing the genders' there.

~

Well, here's the thing. We're trying to support and up-hold tolerance, you know? I read the rules, and I see line after line of encouragement towards expression (within reason) and overall being a friendly, accepting and kind community.

So why is this such a profound issue?

Well, as it turns out-- now that I've delved into the history of what I assumed to be a most arbitrary rule. Someone ruined it for everybody. As to who this 'somebody' was, I don't really care to say. But what they did, was take a concept, and make it offensive in the eyes of some/most. This was done through the process of over-sexualizing certain aspects and means of depiction.

For this, a particularly... odd, and rather intolerant-sounding rule was put in place: No matter what, you must use the model of your character's biological gender.

Now I don't agree with this. Rather heavy-handedly at that, as I've had a most *terrible* history paved behind me.

A history, full of hurtful compromises. Having to save face in the eyes of intolerant once-friends (A handful of them I knew in RL) that put me in a most terrible state of being. I had to hide who I was, at heart from them. I could not play my characters in a way in which I felt comfortable with. If I attempted to do things my way, I often ended up getting scolded. Chastised, mocked and worse.

It got to the point to where roleplay became burdensome. A very somber and unhappy task for me to take part in, when those particular people were around.

Now, I'm a lover of aesthetics. And there are particular things that I'm willing to overlook in in-game models, and some things I cannot so easily.

When I choose a female model for my male character, it is for accuracy to his concept and ease of explanation. It is much easier for me to simply use male/masculine pronouns, and occasionally (and politely no less) correct someone who is confused about my usage of such for that character. Aside from the bust, things are-- for the most part, pretty damned accurate. Because of this, it's less work on me. And it's less work on others to understand what I'm trying to depict.

~

Now, when I use a male model~ several issues (for me) come up. First and foremost, the additional work. I have to add layers upon layers of additional purple prose just to achieve the same effect I otherwise would've been able to get in a couple lines when describing what my character is doing. How he appears. Etc, etc. This is because the hyper-masculine, Conan/He-Man tier male model expresses... well. Strength. And profound masculinity in nearly every regard. Unless of course, you make him look old. Then expressions of brittleness and the like become a little more easy to grasp.

Secondly, it brings back those... old, horrible feelings of the past for me. Having to feel like I have to hide. That I have to compromise because of an intolerant few. I know that it's not the case for the most part, here. What I roleplay and how my character behaves would hardly be a problem, I'm sure. But that doesn't stop the shivers of just... regret and loathing. I've been ushered into it before, and I just *don't like it*. In every game I've been in since I finally shirked off those who were hurting me, I've switched into using female models. And I've been *happier* for it. And my characters and no less rich in development as they were before.

Finally, the argument of 'Just use TRP' comes up. And that's valid... to a point. It doesn't eradicate my second problem of course. But even to the first, there are issues. I've used it before. Namely on Prologue, which is largely a much less tolerant place (You come out as being non-hetero amongst them, expect to get ganked by Bandits 'for some reason'.) I had to use a male model. This was... excruciating and demoralizing for me, but I tried upon the insistence of a friend. Filled out my TRP with utmost detail. Put links to artwork, and the like.

And how did people see him?

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRa-3gdUqvkQ87rSeCH1XO...OoJ-ndvJ-A]

It didn't work as intended. And aside from that, in about a week I stopped logging on. Couldn't get over the shivers, you know?

~

So needless to say, I'm at a loss. I'm demoralized all over again, and it's because one insensitive bad egg ruined the whole ordeal.

So I propose something simple. If it's a matter of such characters being handled in a respectable and acceptable manner, I suggest we open a miscellaneous application section. For matters such as these. That way, we can be sure. We can get feedback, and ensure that nothing offensive comes out of allowing such a thing to happen again.

If that can't be done... I don't know what to say.

I don't think I could play. I don't want to deal with that anxiety again. I really want to give this server a shot, but it really is a big issue to me. And it really doesn't speak of the tolerance that this server wants to share.

That's all I can really say on the matter. That's my argument. My point. My plea. All I can do now is hope.
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#19
I'm kinda glad this was brought up.

This is soley my opinion on the matter, and is no way an attack on anyone who feels different or any specific character... though, Sachi, Doran will be mentioned.

I do get offended by the idea of a male character that is indeed male... but is the female character model. Granted, in real life you don't always know who's a man, woman, or otherwise, but when getting to know someone eventually that identity does come into play. It can be misleading here to have someone play a male with a female model... well, for obvious reasons.

Another issue is that in real life... if you were to get in a relationship with a trans person--- you'd -have- to be upfront with your SO about sex, and your sex. If you looked like a female, acted as a female, but were actually a male... that'd cause some issues in a relationship.

How does that come into play here? Let me be honest... a lot of people here on CoTh like their romance RP. They like to flirt with whoever, and I feel that having a different gender model upfront sets up for two things... one---a potential failure of communication. Two, hurt feelings... on either side.

It's a can of worms I do not think CoTH should have to deal with, really. Gender identity, while being a harsh real world thing... should probably stay that way for now.





It... also sort of irks me in a way to see male characters sexualized in some manners. In the same way it irks women to see women sexualized. When I see a character... in this case (And I mean no offense!) like Doran, who for a long while refused to wear pants... it kinda... miffed me that he came off more as a fantasy rather than a legitimate male character. It was something that led me to think "Why is this allowed, when people raise a stink about battlethongs or chain bikinis?".

But, all in all... I think for now it's best we represent our characters with the model close to the char's real gender. There's not enough in between to say "Well, they could be either", or otherwise. Unfortunately wow allows only for "Male" or "Female".
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#20
(10-01-2014, 02:43 PM)Harmonic Wrote: Another issue is that in real life... if you were to get in a relationship with a trans person--- you'd -have- to be upfront with your SO about sex, and your sex. If you looked like a female, acted as a female, but were actually a male... that'd cause some issues in a relationship.

How does that come into play here? Let me be honest... a lot of people here on CoTh like their romance RP. They like to flirt with whoever, and I feel that having a different gender model upfront sets up for two things... one---a potential failure of communication. Two, hurt feelings... on either side.



... That's an example of doing the whole 'swapped gender model' matter poorly. To OOCly deceive people would be cold-hearted and troublesome in any situation.

When it comes to a matter like that, I'd like to think that the person roleplaying that character in question, regardless of their choice of pronouns would be up-front if their character is trans, or aesthetically divergent from their biological gender in any manner. Especially if things reached a romantic, and/or intimate level.

As for Sachi's character, Doran. The way I see it, Doran isn't just random flamboyance and offensive depictions of debauchery. He's a multi-layered, developed character that just so happens to dress in a less-than-masculine manner, and has an appearance highly close to that of a female's.

And that's his choice. Sure, some might be made uncomfortable about it. But no one's getting restricted on matters in contrast, like the opposing argument may work to suggest (As you said, "It's a can of worms I do not think CoTH should have to deal with, really. Gender identity, while being a harsh real world thing... should probably stay that way for now.").
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#21
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. When I first read it, yeah, I was peeved. But I took the high road. Went and got me some food and thought it over. Gotta cool down, yeah? Plus, the kitten picture helped on the first page. I knew I'd need it.


I shall do my little preachy bit.

I changed Doran a lot over my time away from CotH. When I left and prior to my absence I felt attacked over him repeatedly. Sometimes I'd laugh a bit with everyone, but it really, really did hurt me. People see him as a joke without so much as thinking about how I viewed my own characters. I put a lot of love, effort, and consideration into making each and every one of my characters. To have one with a design I've grown to love and find so adorable, it really did hurt me to have him berated because of my choices with him. Aendron? Nothing wrong with being physically handicapped. Leron? Butchered face. Who cares. I'm only known for Doran. I'm always having to justify Doran. I'm getting a little teary-eyed having to do it all again.

I did change him. I changed him a lot in an effort to "please" others.
"PUT ON PANTS LOL". He's in full plate.
"HE LOOKS LIKE A GIRL LOL". Hidden in full plate and he hardly shows his face.
"HE'S SUCH A BABY LOL". Now he's rude and angry. Happy?

Now I ask. Why must this always be turned on this character? I made this thread for others who have characters that they want to represent they feel most accurate. I'm not the only one out there with effeminate characters. We shouldn't be afraid to declare if we have an effeminate male or a masculine female. So now I'm gonna wave Doran with pride. I'm not gonna hide and cry anymore over constantly being judged over my character designs.

And now I shall wait before this starts coming off on a rant. I'm pretty darn sure I'm never gonna get a female model for Doran. I've been fighting this battle for too long. If it really and honestly peeves people that bad, then oh well.
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[4:16:27 PM] Cristovao di Silvio ( @CappnRob): theres the bar. then theres the bottom of the barrel, then theres you sachi
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#22
(10-01-2014, 02:43 PM)Harmonic Wrote: Another issue is that in real life... if you were to get in a relationship with a trans person--- you'd -have- to be upfront with your SO about sex, and your sex. If you looked like a female, acted as a female, but were actually a male... that'd cause some issues in a relationship.

Going to note something here for clarity, and so that this is cleared up for both players and GMs: the rule that was made, as it stands now, has nothing to do with trans* characters. It was put into place specifically for the instances where we have characters that are

1. Biologically completely male.
2. Identify as completely male.
3. Are only an issue because they supposedly look feminine.
(Note from the above: this issue is always males using female models. There's never been, to my knowledge, a case of the opposite.)

This has nothing to do with trans*/intersex/whatevs characters. No official and detailed conversation on how this policy deals with trans* characters has ever been conducted, as the situation has not come up to my knowledge. This is pretty much why I don't see this as a tolerance or discrimination issue. The reasons for the policy being in place were explained well enough earlier in the thread: trading one extreme for another and some very poor past representations.

Let's not post names, though. There is no reason to make this thread derail into mud-slinging.

I don't really have much more to add at this time beyond that clarification. I am watching this thread, though, so please play nice.
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#23
I only brought it up because he's one of the only characters I can relate this to. I'm sorry that you feel like it's an attack on you, but it really isn't. At all. The thing is, it was something that used to make me shake my head again in a way a lot of women would shake their head at how some men play female characters. After you made the changes, and developed him... there's not really much I can say about it.

I apologize if you feel "bullied" by me or anyone else over this. This isn't the intention. As someone who's been the butt of ridicule for playing women poorly, I can empathize. I'm not saying you play men poorly, or your own character... but what I am saying is that people formulate opinions based on what they know... or what they've seen. Whether they are right or wrong is immaterial in the end, because honestly if you enjoy playing someone how you play them... then how can I really criticize you?

The only thing I will say is what I said above. It does irk me a little bit. While he may not be intented to be a character for sex or overly sexualized... it did appear that way when he didn't wear pants and acted fairly girly. I feel again I have to say it's not an attack---just my perception---and that I'm not trying to make you mad. More that I'm trying to understand where you are coming from, and tell you why I feel the way I do.

I guess in a way it felt demeaning. Like, a person's opinion of "This is what's sexy, this is what I want my males to be". It might be seen as a personal issue with me, but it did leave a bit of a bitter taste when I'd see the character brought up. I used to be of the opinion "Why do they complain? The character brings on hate, for obvious reasons..." But honestly? After reading your posts I can see why you get angry or unhappy when he's brought up.

I would too. I have too.

Maybe then it should be said that we need to all quit rolling our eyes at characters that go against our grain and just... accept them as we'd have to accept this in real life?






Though, I still think the player model thing just overall would be a little too confusing. Without that grey area or actual human touch we are left with models with wide hips or boobs or a model with a thick barrel chest.

It doesn't leave room for the customization that could let you say "This is my transgen char, this is actually how they look" instead of just "Female" or "Male."

...I also remember my transgendered character getting denied. He was a dwarf... I was pretty unhappy by it because he had a hell of a fun background and story, and was tough as shit... but loved to think of himself as a woman. He used to torture poor Rofupi too.

But... I don't know.

This is a hard topic to discuss. :\
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#24
To my understanding the only times this has come up have involved characters of one gender and identity wanting to use the appearance of another for the sake of appearance.

I have not seen any transgender characters (at all really, but that's another matter) trying to do this; to my recollection it has always been a matter of 'I am a male and identify as male, but I wish to use the female model because of reasons'. Reasons generally being for aesthetic purposes. I want to state that clear, because with that in mind the notion of trans characters really has no place in this discussion unless we want to actually dip into that portion.

Because these are not equatable, simply put. Play out the following scenario: You approach a female character. You do not look at TRP, and approach and greet them. "Hello, miss."

If this character is a male using the female model they will say "I'm not a girl."

If this character is male to female and thus identifies as female, they will simply greet you back.

The first causes the roleplay to stutter because you did not read a TRP; it causes the character to react in a way they might not if you had, and it caused your character to say something they might not have said if they were using the other model. When I approach a male character I don't expect that they're muscled beasts like all WoW models are- I expect they are male. And if that character identifies as male there's nothing lost in that immediate visual communication. The only way there's friction is if the character is male and they are purposefully using another model.

Transgendered characters are a completely different matter and they would be handled differently, but to my knowledge that is -not- what we are discussing in these cases. The arguements for why a character should use a different model for appearance's sake can be argued on both sides with "Just read the TRP". By using a male model you have to say "Hey this is a femme character". By using a female model you have to say "Hey this is a male character. But femme."
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#25
(10-01-2014, 03:40 PM)Rigley Wrote: To my understanding the only times this has come up have involved characters of one gender and identity wanting to use the appearance of another for the sake of appearance.

I have not seen any transgender characters (at all really, but that's another matter) trying to do this; to my recollection it has always been a matter of 'I am a male and identify as male, but I wish to use the female model because of reasons'. Reasons generally being for aesthetic purposes. I want to state that clear, because with that in mind the notion of trans characters really has no place in this discussion unless we want to actually dip into that portion.

Because these are not equatable, simply put. Play out the following scenario: You approach a female character. You do not look at TRP, and approach and greet them. "Hello, miss."

If this character is a male using the female model they will say "I'm not a girl."

If this character is male to female and thus identifies as female, they will simply greet you back.

The first causes the roleplay to stutter because you did not read a TRP; it causes the character to react in a way they might not if you had, and it caused your character to say something they might not have said if they were using the other model. When I approach a male character I don't expect that they're muscled beasts like all WoW models are- I expect they are male. And if that character identifies as male there's nothing lost in that immediate visual communication. The only way there's friction is if the character is male and they are purposefully using another model.

Transgendered characters are a completely different matter and they would be handled differently, but to my knowledge that is -not- what we are discussing in these cases. The arguements for why a character should use a different model for appearance's sake can be argued on both sides with "Just read the TRP". By using a male model you have to say "Hey this is a femme character". By using a female model you have to say "Hey this is a male character. But femme."

With the exception of Jean... QQ y u furgot hur?


EDIT so it doesn't seem like I am trolling...

For a while Jean was identifying herself as a man. People treated her as one even though I had the female model. Yes, it took effort into explaining ooc that she was identifying as a dude but once it was over with, people got that she was female to male.

Edit x 2 because my signature hypnotized me...

My personal experience is my own. It was fine the way it was. Will that reflect success for everyone? Not in the slightest.

Seriously hypnotizing.
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#26
I do get where you're coming from, Rigley. It's a fine and fair point that the rule would be alleviated for those who actually are playing transgendered characters. And it's also a good point that there would potentially be a stutter if a character who is male, but uses a female model is approached and addressed in a manner that doesn't suit the character's self-identity.

However, there are certain circumstances that also have to be addressed.

Let's say... the male character in question looks extremely feminine, physically. And they also have a penchant for dressing in a feminine manner. I don't think it's exactly fair to them, to make their character end up looking anything remotely like this if they don't want them to look as such:

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTefVEid81SxpL3ijRjXMG...eEqGgs2JIw]

I mean, really.

Now, my character is a particularly complicated case. He's male. Physically doesn't look it... at all. Feminine figure. Face. Voice. Proportions. Etc, etc. He identifies as male, though he has a feminine side that he represses in order to seek acceptance from his peers. So he can be respected, you know? But he *does* have a feminine side, regardless. Does that make him trans? No. But I feel *better* having his feminine attributes represented by the model in question.

How do I avoid confusion on his gender? Not only is he upfront about correcting people on it, but I use masculine pronouns when describing him. But he still, significantly so looks like a woman. It *is* easy to mistake him as a flat-chested woman. That's a part of his character! The chance of 'slipping up' is a very IC thing!

It just pains me that this is an issue, though. I don't know. I'm hoping there's a bright outcome to this.
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#27
(10-01-2014, 03:30 PM)Harmonic Wrote: ...I also remember my transgendered character getting denied. He was a dwarf... I was pretty unhappy by it because he had a hell of a fun background and story, and was tough as shit... but loved to think of himself as a woman. He used to torture poor Rofupi too.

(10-01-2014, 03:58 PM)Cressy Wrote: For a while Jean was identifying herself as a man. People treated her as one even though I had the female model. Yes, it took effort into explaining ooc that she was identifying as a dude but once it was over with, people got that she was female to male.

Why I stressed "to my knowledge." There may have been exceptions and confusion regarding policy regarding such characters due to miscommunication.

I think that it's something to discuss and see how we can deal with such characters maturely and without it becoming offensive, but that doesn't appear to be this discussion. Unless, of course, I am misunderstanding why this subject was brought up in the first place?
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#28
Bringing in trans was not of the original intention, but I suppose it could play part if one wanted a trans character.

Simply put it's how we express the character's gender and secondary traits. It's my personal opinion that we select models that accurately describe how they appear and how they present/dress themselves. Gotta love how Blizzard changed so many equips on male and female models.
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#29
(10-01-2014, 04:15 PM)Grakor456 Wrote:
(10-01-2014, 03:30 PM)Harmonic Wrote: ...I also remember my transgendered character getting denied. He was a dwarf... I was pretty unhappy by it because he had a hell of a fun background and story, and was tough as shit... but loved to think of himself as a woman. He used to torture poor Rofupi too.

(10-01-2014, 03:58 PM)Cressy Wrote: For a while Jean was identifying herself as a man. People treated her as one even though I had the female model. Yes, it took effort into explaining ooc that she was identifying as a dude but once it was over with, people got that she was female to male.

Why I stressed "to my knowledge." There may have been exceptions and confusion regarding policy regarding such characters due to miscommunication.

I think that it's something to discuss and see how we can deal with such characters maturely and without it becoming offensive, but that doesn't appear to be this discussion. Unless, of course, I am misunderstanding why this subject was brought up in the first place?

I think that is this discussion. Unless I'm misunderstanding as well, I do that a lot.
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#30
TRP2 is optional, by the way.
The true test of his choice lies forward.
— The story of the Silithian.


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