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Gender. Is it offensive?
#31
I would like people to correct me if I'm wrong. I see two sides to this.

There is the side that says that characters should reflect their IC gender expression OOC, because that way people who see them IC will see the representation that most closely matches their actual gender, regardless of their individual masculinity or femininity.

Then, there is the side that says that characters should reflect their OOC gender based on how masculine or feminine their character looks, because that's going to be how they come across to most characters upon first impression, regardless of gender identity.

As I pondered a way that I could meaningfully contribute to this discussion, especially since I myself am transgender and therefore a representative of the LGBTQ community, a thought occurred to me. What would the GM team think of a character that is genderfluid?

For those who aren't familiar, genderfluidity is when one's gender identity shifts constantly. I'm not sure entirely how best to put it, but given my own experiences with internally identifying as genderfluid for a short while, it's more of an instinctual or gut feeling. You don't decide which gender you're going to be. You just end up representing as a man, a woman, or neither, or something in between, depending on what feels most right to you at the time.

How would one be expected to choose a gender for such a character? Obviously, one would not reroll their character every time their gender felt different. But, the current stance on gender for characters seems to dictate that would be the case. I hope that the stance would not be that such characters are not permitted. That would step into ugly territory, in my opinion.
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#32
To be blunt, I don't think I've seen anyone wishing to roleplay such a character, and until someone seriously wishes to I'm not entirely certain that should be an issue. Bringing up genderfluidity and even transgendered characters is complicating a subject that... doesn't really mesh with them at all.

The topic began on 'one gender and matching identity that wishes to use an opposite model'. This is not equatable to gender fluidity or transgendered characters.

On my own personal answer to genderfluidity, I would likely say we give them the choice for the model and leave it at that.
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#33
(10-01-2014, 06:01 PM)Scout Wrote: What would the GM team think of a character that is genderfluid?

I was actually hoping no one would bring that up, mostly because it would yield an unsatisfactory answer no matter how it was responded to.

Honestly, this and the rest of the conversation exposes the inherent problems with portraying people in such binary terms, especially to the extremes that WoW does. There is no method to change character build, just you are either VERY MUCH 100%, WITHOUT A DOUBT A BLOCKY MAN, or you're VERY MUCH 100%, WITHOUT A DOUBT A CURVY WOMAN. There's no area in between, which is really the culprit behind why these discussions even exist.

The problem is, those are our only options, so one way or another we have to categorize our characters using one model or the other. This is going to require some unfortunate forcing no matter where the ruling lies, and that's going to seem arbitrary to some people.

To answer the question...I don't know, though I wouldn't disallow such characters. My initial, tentative answer is that with a gender fluid character the model should probably be whatever sex the character is closest to biologically. Not a clean answer in this case, but yeah.
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#34
I brought it up because I'm trying to sort out my feelings regarding this subject. I do feel as though characters should be able to choose their OOC gender based on which their IC biology appears closest to...but I also feel as though there are valid points being made on the opposite side of the equation.

I think the next question I would like to pose is as follows: is there any harm in allowing people to select OOC gender based on which best matches their mental image of their appearance? It's been mentioned that it would be a lot of work either way, but I think that there's an issue which is being overlooked, in that it can be very dissonant to a player to be forced to play a character that drastically looks different than the way that they picture them.

I know I've had difficulty with characters in the past whose models didn't look the way I wanted them to, and in such cases I've more often than not felt as though I needed to scrap the character. People would have to explain it either way, yes...but one of these ways is more comfortable for the player than the other. In the past, it's been proven that most people don't really care, as long as they're made aware of what's going on.

Addendum: I'm going to drop a link to a previous thread on this topic, for the sake of food for thought.
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#35
I think a lot of the problem again is that... no matter what it's going to be hard to make the perfect character. Genderfluid, feminine male, muscular female... it's very restricting in that regards.

The problem is like... with a female model for a male character is that no matter what it's going to be an... odd representation. Unless your male char has dem hips and huge pulsating boobs (Seriously, the models look like it's on a piston) it's not going to be a great representation. Right now it's just... I think the mindset is "If you have a male char, it should have the male model. If female, it should have the female."

A lot of people have cited dimorphism, others have said because of confusion, and honestly I agree with both points. If the engine allowed for better customization... I'd say have at it.

Honestly... Saint's Row 3 and 4, despite being crazy as hell and often used to make fun of things... honestly has a wonderful character creation system. Want to be that dude in a dress that looks like a good looking woman? Yes. You can. Feminine dude? Go for it. Hairy barrel chested lady? Have at it.

No matter what it's not going to work like that here, so for simplicity's sake it likely would be best to have male for male, female to female.
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#36
Again, this is why I ask if there's any harm in allowing a player to simply choose which OOC model fits their character best.
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#37
Other than what I've cited? Nope. But, there's a lot of things that wouldn't cause much harm that we haven't gotten on CoTH due to the work involved, or the fact that's not how things have been done.

Personally? I'm against it, but overall would not be so bothered by it. Just all the work should be on the player of these characters to represent themselves fairly... but I doubt that'll be much of a problem.
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#38
(10-01-2014, 06:55 PM)Scout Wrote: Again, this is why I ask if there's any harm in allowing a player to simply choose which OOC model fits their character best.



That's why the rule is being so vigorously questioned at this point. The rule seems to be doing a lot more harm than help. Sure, it makes it so everyone's more easily categorized...-- but what are we? Some sort of archive?

We're roleplayers. About as colorful and different as our plethora of colorful, wild and expression-filled characters. The only time they've ever done any harm, is when they're being evil lil' son-of-a-guns to each other.

And Harmonic, I'm sorry to say. But your argument so far has been "Men are men, women are women. I don't like being confused and the whole situation makes me squeamish so I'm against it."

Well, in a lot of corners, that would be considered intolerant. Even worse, you're trying to restrict someone based on your intolerance. What if someone said, "I'm offended by masculine males! No one should be able to use the more ugly of the male models because of it!"

It's restrictive, and hostile to others. --I know you don't mean to be hostile, and I truly do appreciate it, man. But the restriction does bother people and prevents them from being as engaged as they could be.

I mean, look at my case. My ability to enjoy CotH is tethered to this topic. I can't enjoy my Main (and only) character if things keep the way they are due to past experiences that really tore me apart. It sounds messed up, that such a trivial thing could bother me *that* badly. But... that's what history has done to me. :c
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#39
That is not at all what I've said, and that's quite the unfair sumerization considering I said nothing at all about being squeamish. I've even stated that I've played trans characters before, and that I don't really see a harm in this other than what I've said...

Which isn't anything close to about me being squeamish. What I said, specifically, is that the -character- models are not changeable. Saying that the female character is close to your model is fine, but unless it's almost exactly like it I don't honestly see why you'd have a problem with using the model that is your character's actual gender representation.

I want to be clear here. Very, very clear. This isn't some bull about me being against this because I'm against girly men or manly women. I'm -not-. Not even slightly. To insinuate I am is pretty offensive, honestly.
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#40
Edit: That sounded really trolly, I'm just going to step out of this conversation.

If my post could be deleted that would be wonderful, as i cannot delete it myself.
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#41
(10-01-2014, 06:55 PM)Scout Wrote: Again, this is why I ask if there's any harm in allowing a player to simply choose which OOC model fits their character best.

Bringing this back up.
And I don't see how this would be a GM chore. Approved character? Reroll like a class change.
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#42
@Harmonic

Very well, my apologies on that matter then. I was moreso referencing your mention of Trans people who choose to not reveal their biological gender, and how miscommunication in the community can cause friction. I truly do apologize on that front.

@cartoonkarl

... We're not changing models. And you're not really contributing to the topic save for throwing in a, "Ehn, no plz". So thanks for that bit of input.
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#43
(10-01-2014, 07:20 PM)Laersect Wrote: @Harmonic

Very well, my apologies on that matter then. I was moreso referencing your mention of Trans people who choose to not reveal their biological gender, and how miscommunication in the community can cause friction. I truly do apologize on that front.

@cartoonkarl

... We're not changing models. And you're not really contributing to the topic save for throwing in a, "Ehn, no plz". So thanks for that bit of input.

That was more a case in the relationship sort of thing. My point is discuss it OOC and IC...

Sorry if it touches a nerve, but it is important especially if there's an IC (Or honestly, OOC relationship) involved.

Like, I know people have these issues in real life, and it's hard... but to be fair it's hard on everyone involved too.

The burden lies on the player how they handle it, and gender identities are a real, real touchy issue for obvious reasons. I honestly kind of dread topics like this... because no matter what you have to tip-toe with anything you say.

I disagree... but if it's -really- harming people that badly, well... again, who am I to say it's "Wrong" based on what I've cited? My reason's aren't as substantial... I'll definitely agree.
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#44
I do actually find it offensive to use a model that does not present the character's gender accurately. I am fine with the idea of someone societally presenting as their accurate gender, but not using the models to distinguish body types. Unfortunately WoW is limiting when it comes to character creation, but that is something we have to work with.

Using the incorrect gender representation for a model does 2 things:

1: Opens your character up to constant misgendering for no reason at all (this can be triggering for certain players)
2: Risks the creation of gag characters being made. I just find it harmful to try and make someone appear as the opposite gender for purely comedic value. Then you run the risk of reinforcing certain stereotypes such as being a "trap" or a "deceiver."

So those are my problems. The model should best represent the character's gender, not their body type. I know what it's like for WoW to not accurately represent your character, but this isn't the solution.
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#45
If someone has chosen to make a character that would involve them being misgendered, then they're obviously not being triggered by that. If someone else is being triggered because someone is voluntarily being misgendered, then I would...first of all, be incredibly surprised, and second of all, feel that they're overreacting, speaking as a transwoman who does feel incredibly uncomfortable when misgendered.

As far as gag characters go, there are always going to be gag characters, and they all lose their novelty over time, and it's not a good reason to limit the people who do wish to play serious characters. It would be like saying you can't play forsaken or gnomes because they're gag characters so often.
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