Poll: What do you think of half-breed NPCs?
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No; keep them out!
27.16%
22 27.16%
Yes, but restraint is needed! (Confirmed lore examples)
18.52%
15 18.52%
Yes, and leniency is a positive thing! (Confirmed pairings+reasonable extras)
45.68%
37 45.68%
Yes, with no limits!
6.17%
5 6.17%
Bananas! [OTHER OPINION+POST BELOW!]
2.47%
2 2.47%
Total 81 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

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Half-Breed NPCs
#31
I'll point out that half breeds are not uncommon in lore, there's thousands of half-elves in Stormwind alone, and like Kage said, Dragonsworn are most likely more rare and more special/snow flakey(not hating, but serving immortal demigods is pretty up there) IMO than someone who's parents were from different races. I really don't see how it's so horrifying that half the server will roll some sort of half breed, 3/4 will go inactive after a few weeks or months, and then there's just a handful still active and floating around. If we're really this scared of letting players play this, then why not remove all the special stuff that makes our characters different? Wait a second...

I mean, come on now. A person who has blue/green glowing eyes with pointed ears and has ties with human and elven culture is ground shattering into Mary Sue kingdom? We already have elves and humans that do that already and they have approved profiles.
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#32
The discussion for NPCs and PCs has to be different as the PCs would be more immediate whereas NPC children? They've got to be conceived, carried and borne just like any other NPC child. Nine+ months down the line, anything could happen: The player(s) could leave the server, a storyline gets retconned, you name it.

As for inconsistency, I trust the players to make the logical leaps that there may be Drae-troll children now whereas they previously had no contact (to have the full-fledged adults playable by CotH age rules).
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#33
(04-12-2013, 01:36 PM)Caravan Wrote: The discussion for NPCs and PCs has to be different as the PCs would be more immediate whereas NPC children? They've got to be conceived, carried and borne just like any other NPC child. Nine+ months down the line, anything could happen: The player(s) could leave the server, a storyline gets retconned, you name it.

There is nothing about what you just said that in any way implies the policies should or has to be different. Just because one is played and the other is not does not mean that they should have different rulings. The discussions, at the end of the day, boil down to essentially the same thing: do we want half-breeds running around in RP, and do we want to be forced to make logical leaps as to what is possible and what isn't? That children have to be conceived has absolutely nothing to do with this.

Quote:As for inconsistency, I trust the players to make the logical leaps that there may be Drae-troll children now whereas they previously had no contact (to have the full-fledged adults playable by CotH age rules).

Besides a very poor example (frankly, it's bad enough that draenei, orcs, and humans are all shown as being compatible when they are all completely alien to one another...draenei breeding with everything is the last thing I want to see, personally) I don't see how this makes any difference. Obviously there is a difference due to the durations that certain races have met one another, but that obvious limitation doesn't change the core of the issue. Particularly since there ARE races that have known each other for a very long time, yet we don't have canon half-breed examples of (dwarf/gnome, dwarf/elf for example.)
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#34
(04-12-2013, 02:10 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: There is nothing about what you just said that in any way implies the policies should or has to be different.

I was just offering a musing as to why the results seem to be so varied between PCs and NPCs :)
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#35
Grakor456 Wrote:Just because one is played and the other is not does not mean that they should have different rulings.


Why would that matter if they did? One goes to player characters, the other goes to characters that noone has direct control over. Also, this would imply that GM's would have control over NPC's of this type, and in that case it is a perfect example of NPC's doing things that PC's can't.

Basically, what I'm trying say is... why is it suddenly determined that NPC's and PC's have to follow the same rules? That's never been that way.
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#36
(04-12-2013, 02:16 PM)Rensin Wrote: Why would that matter if they did? One goes to player characters, the other goes to characters that noone has direct control over. Also, this would imply that GM's would have control over NPC's of this type, and in that case it is a perfect example of NPC's doing things that PC's can't.

Basically, what I'm trying say is... why is it suddenly determined that NPC's and PC's have to follow the same rules? That's never been that way.

Because we're not talking about lore figures. We're talking about NPCs that, in fact, ARE under the direct control of players, since parents will be RPing the kids.
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#37
(04-12-2013, 02:19 PM)Grakor456 Wrote:
(04-12-2013, 02:16 PM)Rensin Wrote: Why would that matter if they did? One goes to player characters, the other goes to characters that noone has direct control over. Also, this would imply that GM's would have control over NPC's of this type, and in that case it is a perfect example of NPC's doing things that PC's can't.

Basically, what I'm trying say is... why is it suddenly determined that NPC's and PC's have to follow the same rules? That's never been that way.

Because we're not talking about lore figures. We're talking about NPCs that, in fact, ARE under the direct control of players, since parents will be RPing the kids.

But.. it's been allowed. Not recently, that I've heard of, but it's always been something that's been talked about before.

I agree, though, you are right, those are NPC's that people will have direct control over, however again that's only merely to add to the history/in progress roleplay details of a character. I mean, let me put it this way.

It happens in lore. There are figures it's happened with, Garona, Rexxar, countless others. So, say there is the issue, of someone having a relationship between a Draenei and an Orc.

It's happened. This was a rare case, but it has happened between PC's. What doesn't make sense to me, is how it's on debate whether or not it'll be allowed, despite it being part of WoW's lore, as much as people would love to rewrite it from the ground up.

Basically, it isn't about us telling people to not be special, it's denying that it could happen in the first place.

To me, it seems like a retroactive way to discourage these types or relationship, and to be honest: It's gonna happen. People will do as they like in the RP, so I don't see a reason to NOT allow crossbreed characters as NPC's, other than for just the sake of disallowing them while trying to say it could ruin the quality of the server.

We all know there are multiple ways that CoTH can preserve this quality, and make sure things don't get too out of hand. *Shrugs*
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#38
There's no motive to discourage interracial romance or anything of the sort. Some folks seem to forget, but I have a human that's married to an orc. Believe me, I have no desire to discourage that type of RP entirely.

Rather, I value consistency in terms of what we let players do, to ensure a minimum of confusion. Similarly, I value keeping to CotH's mission and primary goal, which hasn't changed: staying as loyal to WoW's canon lore. Having a "split verdict" creates a number of problems in the long-term for both of these goals.

1. As pointed out before, races that have known each other for a long time. Let's say human/dwarf. There's been plenty of time where they could have interbred, if it was possible. We allow kids to be made, but then someone wants to play an actual halfbreed of this combination. What do we say without looking hypocritical?

2. As pointed out before, we're taking guesses as to what is possible and what is not. While I don't terribly mind if we make some extrapolations, I do mind if we're making them solely for what equates to props.

Also, half-breed kids were always disallowed. S'nothing new. Just there was confusion because of a joke I made a while ago, so I apologize for that, but it's always been against policy. These discussions are about if that policy should change.
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#39
(04-12-2013, 02:37 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: There's no motive to discourage interracial romance or anything of the sort. Some folks seem to forget, but I have a human that's married to an orc. Believe me, I have no desire to discourage that type of RP entirely.

Rather, I value consistency in terms of what we let players do, to ensure a minimum of confusion. Similarly, I value keeping to CotH's mission and primary goal, which hasn't changed: staying as loyal to WoW's canon lore. Having a "split verdict" creates a number of problems in the long-term for both of these goals.

1. As pointed out before, races that have known each other for a long time. Let's say human/dwarf. There's been plenty of time where they could have interbred, if it was possible. We allow kids to be made, but then someone wants to play an actual halfbreed of this combination. What do we say without looking hypocritical?

2. As pointed out before, we're taking guesses as to what is possible and what is not. While I don't terribly mind if we make some extrapolations, I do mind if we're making them solely for what equates to props.

Also, half-breed kids were always disallowed. S'nothing new. Just there was confusion because of a joke I made a while ago, so I apologize for that, but it's always been against policy. These discussions are about if that policy should change.

I'll answer these in the order that you put 'em in. Sorry for suggesting that you were discouraging that, it just is honestly how it comes off as, since a majority of the complaining I hear from people is how it doesn't make sense that x race is with that other race, so it's why I jumped to there. But!

1. If it's determined you don't allow people to play these characters--- just say no. I mean, make it a rule. Make it clear, write what's okay with it and what's not. I don't understand why making this differentiation would make anyone hypocritical, as I think a clear and stated line is more healthy than retroactive to any solution.

2. I can understand that. And I'm glad it's being discussed, because we really badly need some fresh ideas to perk the server up. These things are a forward thinking and progressive way of taking action, rather than the GM's discussing it alone and deciding to do it---as the poll shows, despite the GM's disliking the idea, the players do themselves wish they could do this. Doesn't speak for everyone, I know, but hey!


And they weren't always disallowed. Sersay is the first example to come to mind----but that's so old it's irrelevant. If I could recall more offhand I would state 'em, but that was a case that's in my immediate memory.



SO! In short. Yes, I suppose the policy should change. The reasons are, because it's established in lore that's it's happened, although I think like with custom classes we could re-tool that how we see fit; people have interracial interactions that have happened that would be made more tense if adding in the element of a love-child, and it'd be a good way to establish us a little bit differently than what we have been doing.

I'm sure there are better reasons people could come up with, but... right now it's pretty obvious by both of the polls in both threads that a majority of people like this idea either with a certain amount of control or complete freedom.
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#40
(04-12-2013, 02:37 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: There's no motive to discourage interracial romance or anything of the sort. Some folks seem to forget, but I have a human that's married to an orc. Believe me, I have no desire to discourage that type of RP entirely.

Rather, I value consistency in terms of what we let players do, to ensure a minimum of confusion. Similarly, I value keeping to CotH's mission and primary goal, which hasn't changed: staying as loyal to WoW's canon lore. Having a "split verdict" creates a number of problems in the long-term for both of these goals.

Your human traitor will be dealt with when the time comes, don't you worry one bit, Grakor.

Oh, I understand your concern. We allow the split, we get some enjoyment for awhile, people are happy, then some people want a halfbreed child or halfbreed character that we don't allow, and suddenly we're having another of these conversations. It will annoy you, it will annoy the GM team, and that slope, she be slippy. I understand where you come from, but I'm still sitting on the other side of the table with all the halfbreed babies.

Quote:1. As pointed out before, races that have known each other for a long time. Let's say human/dwarf. There's been plenty of time where they could have interbred, if it was possible. We allow kids to be made, but then someone wants to play an actual halfbreed of this combination. What do we say without looking hypocritical?

Well, you could say "rules are rules", but then someone gets upset, you get the image of a tyrannical dictator, and nobody is happy. You're a cool guy, I understand where you're coming from, and I don't consider you a dictator. Have the image of someone that wants to follow the lore to the letter at times, but you're open to trying new things, as shown by threads in the past where the community changed your mind. Gives you a plus.

So, how do we explain the freedom with NPC babies but limited PC half-breeds? Well, we can use the lack of a lore answer as an answer. If it happened, it was so rare that there was no point in writing it down. It was so rare, that it is very unlikely that you will be, say, a half-dwarf/half-gnome. What do I mean by rare? I don't mean it took one hundred tries for a gnome man to finally have a child with his dwarf wife, I mean that the gnome man was 99.99% more likely to go for his own race than a dwarf woman (they have beards, you know).

Quote:2. As pointed out before, we're taking guesses as to what is possible and what is not. While I don't terribly mind if we make some extrapolations, I do mind if we're making them solely for what equates to props.

Props that can be used to advance RP, bring a change to both the parents and the people they meet and the people that know the child, make enemies out of friends, and maybe getting a stone thrown at you by anyone that wants to be a jerk. I like props when they help advance a story or a character.

Quote:Also, half-breed kids were always disallowed. S'nothing new. Just there was confusion because of a joke I made a while ago, so I apologize for that, but it's always been against policy. These discussions are about if that policy should change.

When I joined the server, I thought the lore-recognized half-breeds were allowed since the RPG books were also used to answer most questions.

Not sure what joke you're talking about.

I would be a broken record if I parroted "I'm for NPC halfbreeds, not PC halfbreeds" once again, so there is no point to that, and you already know that I think the policy should change.
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#41
If I remember correctly, we consider the rpg books to be no longer a valid lore citation.
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#42
(04-12-2013, 05:29 PM)Anski Wrote: If I remember correctly, we consider the rpg books to be no longer a valid lore citation.

Inspiration is still drawn from them, such is the case with the custom class system. However, the idea of Half-breeds doesn't solely exist in the RPG books, the comics that had been made into cannon as well as some actual stuff in WoW has been introduced.

There's even a half orc/draenei NPC in Nagrand that gives out quests. He's also a blademaster.
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#43
(04-12-2013, 03:40 PM)Mathias Wrote: So, how do we explain the freedom with NPC babies but limited PC half-breeds? Well, we can use the lack of a lore answer as an answer. If it happened, it was so rare that there was no point in writing it down. It was so rare, that it is very unlikely that you will be, say, a half-dwarf/half-gnome. What do I mean by rare? I don't mean it took one hundred tries for a gnome man to finally have a child with his dwarf wife, I mean that the gnome man was 99.99% more likely to go for his own race than a dwarf woman (they have beards, you know).

The only problem with that is that it still comes too close to "because we say so." We're not saying it's impossible, we're saying that we subjectively don't want it to happen so we're just saying no. That does not strike me as firm ground to be standing on, or a good way to hold positive relations with the playerbase.

Quote:Not sure what joke you're talking about.

I believe the confusion, including from the GM side of things, came about because of something I jokingly told Wuvvums a while prior. Or I'm simply misremembering how that conversation went and I really did give permission at the time for her character. At this point, I don't even know. But it was something to the effect of "Oh yeah, if a kid reaches 18 you could totally have someone play them as a character." Either way.

Ultimately, I'm going to wash my hands of this discussion. I don't even especially care if half-breeds are allowed, I simply don't like inconsistency. However, I think a lot of my issues with the current proposal are stemming from a personal distaste over how this entire suggestion started. There's nothing to be done about that now, however, so I'm simply going to stand aside. I promised I'd not direct CotH's creative direction and I meant it. I've said my opinion and that's all that needs to be done.

Ultimately, the decision is not mine. We will see what Kretol says when he looks back here.
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#44
I don't like the concept of Dragonsworn but I still RP with them.

So there's that...

I personally don't see why trying is such a painful thing. If we all agree on "yeah, that was a bad idea and we messed up", it can always be changed.
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#45
I think most players here are mature enough to give it a try. I'm always for being lenient if it's appropriate, as long as we don't make everyone a Game Master. :3


If you really are concerned, you could maybe limit how many are allowed at the same time. Say, every account only one Half-breed PC or for every two active accounts one half-breed PC.

Just tossing some ideas out here.
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