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Highs and Lows
#46
(12-09-2012, 03:43 PM)Zhaei Wrote: I can see the problem entirely. I do have a couple of suggestions but I'll refrain from posting them unless you think otherwise because you've heard them before, it's off-topic and it's not my place to throw suggestions at the staff without being asked to. What are your personal opinions on the system?

I'd be happy to discuss the subject, but I feel that it may get this particular thread even more off-topic. I think the CW and Rez systems should get their own thread. If you want to start one with your suggestions, I'd be happy to reply to it and post my thoughts there.
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#47
I completely agree, Rentreality, but it's just not applicable to what tends to occur here. People like the long, epic battles and they always turn out completely implausible. I've never really enjoyed them, but the server as a whole seems to favour them. I've been studying medieval war in school, and it has really opened my eyes to what combat is really like (the era I focus on being probably the closest to WoW); I'd like to see some semblance of realism in combat and have actually been planning some of my next events to feature something along those lines.

Will do, Grakor!
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#48
I've always felt oh-so-torn between the two tendencies - I love both mainstream-comic-book "We're all mini-demigods" adventure as well as theatre-like grimdark struggle stories. I think both can and should be a part of CotH, but I also believe they're both slightly ruined when happening in the same immediate reality.

I've always felt the following:

To me, CotH should ideally have two realms.

A. - The high-fantasy high-power superheroic one

B. - The grimdark-ish low-power just-above-commoner one


I can hear the objections in my head now, but I honestly believe all three groups would be satisfied by such: Those that like A, those that like B and the many-many that like A sometimes and B at other times.

I've given the specifics a lot of though - what would acceptable on one or the other, what would make for a special profile on one or the other, death policy differences, but those are just my thoughts - you get the gist.

In terms of staffing, I think GM staff could (be extended with worthy folks enough to) handle all that needs doing for such.

The parallels I think would be delicious, too. Parallel comparable realities rule.

People hate the idea of separation of any sort in itself, and tend to see any separation as failiure. I'd see it as success - It's wouldn't be like the community would schism - everyone would still have access to both realms. I think few things, if any, have caused more tension on CotH than the tension resulting from these two tendencies.

Sometimes I go to more power-controlled environments to get the feel I want because I feel it's unavailable on CotH.

Sometimes I go to more 'heroic' environments to get the feel I want because I don't want to be that guy pushing the powerlevel limit.

This'd make home even more home.
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#49
The separation between two realms could've worked with a larger playerbase, IMO. With the number of players we have now, dividing them between two entirely separate realms would risk incapacitating both since the numbers will dwindle. I don't think it's something we can truly consider until Cataclysm at the earliest. My 2 cents.
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#50
(12-10-2012, 03:23 AM)Loxmardin Wrote: The separation between two realms could've worked with a larger playerbase, IMO. With the number of players we have now, dividing them between two entirely separate realms would risk incapacitating both since the numbers will dwindle. I don't think it's something we can truly consider until Cataclysm at the earliest. My 2 cents.

Got to side with Lox here. If the server was the size of.. Prologue or something that'd be a fantastic thing to do. However, you'd also have to set strict limits else the person that are low-to-medium fantasy don't fit in a low-fantasy realm, and the people with medium-to-high don't fit in a medium and so forth.

(12-09-2012, 09:10 PM)rentreality Wrote: I was just talking about this with a few people a couple of nights back in Shatterspear. I think that a large part of the problems with invulnerability, etc., is that people simply do not know enough about combat and combat injuries to make an informed decision. It seems that combat invariably results in one person being dead, and the other one being alive and relatively unharmed, because people do not know how debilitating any given wound would be.

I made a guide about injuries a long while back, prior to my break, but it's a clunky thing. It details a lot of information about likelihood and timing of death, the potential disabilities, etc., from a given wound, but looking back on it, it misses what I think is the most important part:

If you are struck by an arrow, you will not brush it off. There is nobody in the world who could brush off getting struck by an arrow. Look at Boromir's death in the Lord of the Rings: the fact that he got up and kept fighting after the first impact is nothing short of miraculous, and it is about the best that any one of us could expect to do.

If you are struck by a sword, you will not brush it off. The blood loss alone would make you light-headed. If it was bad enough, you would quite literally begin to see the world in black and white, and you would be lucky to hear anything beyond a constant ringing, let alone actually be able to muster the strength to swing back.

If you are struck by an offensive spell, you will not brush it off. Shock kills, and it is difficult to imagine a greater shock than instantly receiving 3rd degree burns across over a large portion of your body, having a limb flash-frozen, or having your shape changed.

Even blocking a blow with a shield would not be something you could brush off. Ever hit something hard with a stick? Know that feeling where your arm goes numb and tingles for a few minutes? You'd be feeling that. If you were small enough, or weak enough, and your opponent large or strong enough, even blocking the blow might break your arm. It was common for soldiers to have the flesh of their forearms and wrists cut and abraded from where the edges of their shields dug in when they absorbed a blow.

It doesn't matter if you're a courageous hero or a peasant who abruptly needs a new pair of underwear in a hurry. Your body is a body, and high fantasy or low, the attacks you suffer will have consequences.

TL;DR: You can't brush it off.

That. I'd personally love to see more posts whether by GM's or people about injuries and how to deal with them. (Anyone with the intell! Harr. )

My mind:
- Okay, you get stabbed with a sword.
- Where? Not described. Derp.
- Okay, it hurts that I know. Did it tear any muscle? .. What muscles do I got in my arm?
- Can I still use my arm? Probably not due to all of the above.
- Let out a pain of shout while you are at when writing the emote.
- There, fight over. Oh look, there's a priest! "Hey priest!" /instaheal. Downside is a sore arm and fatigue for two days.

I try to stay clear of healing magic (that's probably for a new thread?) but I always seem to get the stance "Why?" "Don't act like a baby, find a priest." .. Maybe I should just roll a warrior that outright fears the light, so he/she won't accept any other healing then through surgeons and stuff. I've tried googling certain things, but really wouldn't know how to find the right information without the "OH GOD I CAN SEE YOUR INSIDES" pictures. I don't mind blood, but I'm not a surgeon. lol. .. I should put up a thread for that I suppose.
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#51
Also, WoW isn't really Grimdark. The colors are very vibrant, there's a ridiculous amount of humor, and everything is peppy despite the tones of death and war.

I'm not saying this because I dislike Grimdark, it's just that it doesn't really describe warcraft. Are there dark things that happen? Of course, sorta stuff happens a lot. But to those that say this is truly a dark world akin to say something TRULY dark like a lovecraftian universe... well...

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I just don't think it is. No, I'm not hatin' on MoP, I'm just stating that this isn't a game that fits in that Genre at all.

To prove my point...

Wow doesn't use sex, extreme violence, or edginess to try to appeal.

Edit: I also realize the link doesn't go to "Grimdark." This is honestly the closest I could find to it, considering it's not an actual widely used term yet.
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#52
The way I see this is that... well...

I rarely define things as "high" or "low" fantasy. I like realism and being able to justify things using the materials we've been given, and I strongly prefer consequences that can be felt. That said, I love playing with the things we have as well and flashy spell effects are fun at times and I recognize that World of Warcraft has its set of heroics and not everything's going to be "realistic" in a familiar sense. However, I think the term "realism" is interpreted very differently from person to person, here.

When I think realism, I just look at the lore I have available to me and use that as a reference frame for what has been done before, meaning I'll use this information as a base when I personally judge what can be done now and in the future. I recognize that pretty much every character on CotH and in WoW is stronger and more proficient in battle and magic and whathaveyou than the average peasant --- because we're all adventurers in some way, even if you're just a regular noble sitting around Silvermoon or a farmer caring for his humongous family out in the middle of nowhere (Markuss). They still have some form of quality to them that puts them apart from the regular peasant in that most of the characters I've seen, even the normal ones, have at some point experienced and recovered from a serious historical event and almost, almost all characters are at least fundamentally able to defend themselves. Even if that doesn't go as far every time seeing as the one they have to defend against is most likely much more specialized in that kind of area.

Ramblerambleramble.

"High" and "Low" fantasy elements both exist in WoW and thus it takes on both sorts of colours. There's sparkly heroes and grim and gloomy underworlds. Death, suffering, decay and whatnot surrounds our characters on every end but there's always the safety net of magic to save us from it if we want it to.

Even so, not everything is possible in WoW just because it's a mainly High/Heroic Fantasy setting. It's still a setting with its own rules and frames, the way I see it, and I try to stick to those frames as well as I can so there's always a way for someone to justify what they're doing with solid source and reason. A lot of things are made possible by the fact it's High Fantasy, with elements of steampunk, sci-fi and who knows what else. ... But, again, that doesn't mean everything is possible.
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#53
Here's how I think of it. WoW is high fantasy, due to it's use of mysticism, non-standard races, the fact it mixes in mechanical ideas and machines that'd normally not exist in a setting like this, and all that other jazz. Something like Game of Thrones is "Low" fantasy, while you do have things like the idea of Worgs, and other fantastical things, it attempts very hard to be like real life.

There's a two fold thing going on here, and I can see why it's happening. While yes, WoW is a high fantasy setting, there's people here who use that as a "Be anything DO anything as long as I'm badass" clause. Why can you do this? "Because WoW has magic and isn't like real life and blur blur unicorns."

Yes, you're right. You're all -very- right, but here's the catch---- everybody plays this character lately. This ONE character, who transcends all races, all classes... and that's The Badass. Not -a- badass, but THE badass.


The Badass is a character that for all intents and purposes, will try his hardest to out-badass everyone in the room. They treat death-threats like they wake up in the morning jumping from a moving helicopter while firing machine guns downward indiscriminately at enemy tanks doing a barrage of fire upon them, while saving all the opposite gendered people in danger they can find on the way down, and probably a puppy or two on the way.

I don't know HOW many times I've encountered people lately that have felt it necessary to come into a place... where they are the minority, and have tried to dictate how things will go down. It's -very- grating to see this concept over, and over, and OVER, and OVER again for -years-.

Why the push for more realism? Because, people again use "High Fantasy" to roll Bruce Willis, Squire. Put some rules on yourselves when you make stuff, folks. Go with flaws instead of just plain old merits. Ask yourself, does this flaw actually affect how I RP this character? If not, chances are it's not a flaw, just some silly shtick people for some reason confuse as a flaw, like speech patterns and eyepatches.




Before you lot call me hypocritical with Xavier----anyone who RP's with me for any extent of time can attest--- he's not a perfect "badass". He cries when he sees spiders, his plans often are not well thought out, and he's leading the Militia by the crotch of his pants.






There's my feelings on the matter. Phew.
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#54
(12-10-2012, 04:41 AM)Psychyn Wrote: That. I'd personally love to see more posts whether by GM's or people about injuries and how to deal with them. (Anyone with the intell! Harr. )

After you said this, I've been wracking my brains to try to think of a way to amend my Doing Damage guide so people could use it to determine debility from injuries, but it seems nearly impossible: there are just too many options for what could happen where.

I guess I'll just throw this out: feel free to contact me on any of my alts any time you get injured, and I'll try to help you deal with it in a realistic manner if you so desire. This goes for anyone.
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#55
Me? I go through narrative convention. I like playing characters capable of kicking ass.

Tropes such as "Nominal Importance" and "Conservation of Ninjutsu" are important. I also like character power to fluctuate from situation to situation - someone might be an unstoppable juggernaut when they're "in their element", but still vulnerable to sneak attacks.

Named, developed characters should kick a lot more ass than unnamed mooks. Emotes should be used to emphasize just how great a threat is. Someone who can take out sixty unnamed Razormane quillboars in open combat may find themselves overwhelmed by the Quillboar lieutenant Snotrock the Jagged, Avenger of the Razormane, and his small company of elite shocktroopers... though several of those "Elite shocktroopers" might go down in the process.
(12-09-2012, 09:10 PM)rentreality Wrote: I was just talking about this with a few people a couple of nights back in Shatterspear. I think that a large part of the problems with invulnerability, etc., is that people simply do not know enough about combat and combat injuries to make an informed decision. It seems that combat invariably results in one person being dead, and the other one being alive and relatively unharmed, because people do not know how debilitating any given wound would be.

I made a guide about injuries a long while back, prior to my break, but it's a clunky thing. It details a lot of information about likelihood and timing of death, the potential disabilities, etc., from a given wound, but looking back on it, it misses what I think is the most important part:

If you are struck by an arrow, you will not brush it off. There is nobody in the world who could brush off getting struck by an arrow. Look at Boromir's death in the Lord of the Rings: the fact that he got up and kept fighting after the first impact is nothing short of miraculous, and it is about the best that any one of us could expect to do.

If you are struck by a sword, you will not brush it off. The blood loss alone would make you light-headed. If it was bad enough, you would quite literally begin to see the world in black and white, and you would be lucky to hear anything beyond a constant ringing, let alone actually be able to muster the strength to swing back.

If you are struck by an offensive spell, you will not brush it off. Shock kills, and it is difficult to imagine a greater shock than instantly receiving 3rd degree burns across over a large portion of your body, having a limb flash-frozen, or having your shape changed.

Even blocking a blow with a shield would not be something you could brush off. Ever hit something hard with a stick? Know that feeling where your arm goes numb and tingles for a few minutes? You'd be feeling that. If you were small enough, or weak enough, and your opponent large or strong enough, even blocking the blow might break your arm. It was common for soldiers to have the flesh of their forearms and wrists cut and abraded from where the edges of their shields dug in when they absorbed a blow.

It doesn't matter if you're a courageous hero or a peasant who abruptly needs a new pair of underwear in a hurry. Your body is a body, and high fantasy or low, the attacks you suffer will have consequences.

TL;DR: You can't brush it off.
I am going to strongly disagree with everything you said here. This is Heroic Fantasy. Heroes CAN "brush it off". Did you not see how many arrows Boromir took? And in the book, it was even more. The point you seem to be trying to make sounds like "Every hit should be debilitating"... which I feel is counterproductive to the server because it encourages avoiding blows and contesting ANY attempt to successfully land a blow because of the debilitating effects. You can't get scars without taking injuries, and if every injury taken is debilitating, it's not fun anymore.


World of Warcraft is Heroic, not High, Fantasy. High Fantasy is Lord of the Rings. Heroic Fantasy is Conan the Barbarian. In fact, "Heroic Fantasy" is sort of like "Cosmic Horror", except with the subnote that "Yes, there are horrific, ancient things beyond our comprehension. But that doesn't mean we can't kick their asses." Remember - Cthulhu himself was defeated by a guy with a motorboat.
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#56
(12-10-2012, 07:39 PM)Scow2 Wrote: Remember - Cthulhu himself was defeated by a guy with a motorboat.

Fuuft. Cshiafthia ut nus garaasag. Ha ut unftx sanlu'a'uftx g'u'an ftathk. Suun xuia ghuftft thuna su 'aaftuctha hut lugha', ghhan ha 'utat r'un sha galsht ur sha taa, ts'ukung raa' unsu sha ghu'shftatt haa'st ur nan ath'utt sha ghu'ftg at shax ftahuftg hut sa''uftfta xas gftu'uuiat 'utaga.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
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#57
(12-10-2012, 07:39 PM)Scow2 Wrote: World of Warcraft is Heroic, not High, Fantasy. High Fantasy is Lord of the Rings. Heroic Fantasy is Conan the Barbarian. In fact, "Heroic Fantasy" is sort of like "Cosmic Horror", except with the subnote that "Yes, there are horrific, ancient things beyond our comprehension. But that doesn't mean we can't kick their asses." Remember - Cthulhu himself was defeated by a guy with a motorboat.

Actually...

Quote:Johansen describes Cthulhu as "a mountain [who] walked or stumbled..." and flees with the crew, almost all of whom are killed by the creature or fall to their death in the heights of the strange city. Johansen and one crewmate return to the yacht and set sail, but note with horror that Cthulhu has entered the water to pursue the vessel. Johansen turns the Alert and rams the creature's head, which bursts with "a slushy nastiness as of a cloven sunfish"- only to immediately begin reforming." The Alert escapes, with Johansen's fellow crewmate having gone insane and dying soon afterwards.

...I wouldn't call that the simple defeat you refer to. The entities in Lovecraft fiction do not ever have their "assess kicked", so--your example is a little off. Are they sent back to whence they came temporarily? Yes. Do Lovecraftian heroes engage in epic, swashbuckling combat? No. They're usually sent to live out their days in an asylum. Remember, nihilism was a huge part of Lovecraft's works.
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#58
(12-10-2012, 08:01 PM)c0rzilla Wrote:
(12-10-2012, 07:39 PM)Scow2 Wrote: World of Warcraft is Heroic, not High, Fantasy. High Fantasy is Lord of the Rings. Heroic Fantasy is Conan the Barbarian. In fact, "Heroic Fantasy" is sort of like "Cosmic Horror", except with the subnote that "Yes, there are horrific, ancient things beyond our comprehension. But that doesn't mean we can't kick their asses." Remember - Cthulhu himself was defeated by a guy with a motorboat.

Actually...

Quote:Johansen describes Cthulhu as "a mountain [who] walked or stumbled..." and flees with the crew, almost all of whom are killed by the creature or fall to their death in the heights of the strange city. Johansen and one crewmate return to the yacht and set sail, but note with horror that Cthulhu has entered the water to pursue the vessel. Johansen turns the Alert and rams the creature's head, which bursts with "a slushy nastiness as of a cloven sunfish"- only to immediately begin reforming." The Alert escapes, with Johansen's fellow crewmate having gone insane and dying soon afterwards.

...I wouldn't call that the simple defeat you refer to. The entities in Lovecraft fiction do not ever have their "assess kicked", so--your example is a little off. Are they sent back to whence they came temporarily? Yes. Do Lovecraftian heroes engage in epic, swashbuckling combat? No. They're usually sent to live out their days in an asylum. Remember, nihilism was a huge part of Lovecraft's works.
Lovecraft wrote Cosmic Horror. He was also friends with the father of Heroic Fantasy, Robert E. Howard, and Lovecraft would often write up cosmic horror stories for Robert to have Conan defeat. That's the line between Cosmic Horror and Heroic Fantasy.
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#59
Lovecraft's "heroes" (they're usually jerks in their own right) in Lovecraft's works, particularly Cthulhu, are not Conan. At all. Just because Lovecraft, apparently, was friends with Howard does not make the protagonists (better word than "heroes") anything at all like Conan. The line between Cosmic Horror and Heroic Fantasy can be vast, much more than who defeats the thing with tentacles.

Granted, I'm not sure what your statement has to do with anything, or how it counters my point, but drifting into literary analysis will drag this off topic.
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#60
(12-10-2012, 08:13 PM)c0rzilla Wrote: Lovecraft's "heroes" (they're usually jerks in their own right) in Lovecraft's works, particularly Cthulhu, are not Conan. At all. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, or how it counters my point, but drifting into literary analysis will drag this off topic.
What I'm saying is that Lovecraft and Howard were friends, and Lovecraft would create cosmic horrors that starred in their story, doing Cosmic Horror stuff... then Howard would take that same cosmic horror and write his stories about Conan kicking his ass.

Same horrific, unknowable, horrific villain. But the setting and tone of the story led to different outcomes. In Lovecraft's stories, the Abomination drove everyone insane. That same abomination would get its ass kicked/get sealed back up by Conan the Barbarian.
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