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In-Character Fighting
So, you've probably been in one, but if not - A large majority of In-character conflicts/fights are dealt with using the /roll command. Highest roll usually wins, but there is one major flaw. This system is entirely based on luck. Now, as far as I'm concerned, most fights have very little to do with luck.

The purpose of this thread is to brainstorm and think up a better working IC-fighting system that is fair, easy to use, and most importantly, realistic. I want to be able to put several ideas on the table, share, and figure out what works good for everybody. I wont be able to do this all in one night, so I'll be throwing out new ideas and editing. Please, feel free to add your own ideas. A lot of these ideas could just be implemented by being a good role-player, being aware, and thinking deep about the situation. I want this thread to help with two of those three.
Recent Changes: Added 'Yellow' section

Old Health: Health is usually a small number like 3-5 or something like that, in the case of a Fight there would be several rolls, one for offense, another for defense.

Idea for Health: Health is always at a base number, I propose 3, and depending on your characters skill, class, and other modifiers could increase several points. A Warrior would usually have a larger modifier, then a Rogue, then a Mage - for instance (This get's balanced, as you'll see)


Old Offense: All characters would use a offensive ability like 'Harry throws punch', there would be a /roll, and then the defender would roll (For another section) The complexity of the offense had very little to do with the roll and it only affected how the Defender would be hit/defend

Idea for (Melee)Offense: If a character wants to throw a hit, three things should be taken into consideration. The character's physical strength, agility, and the character's equipment. A Strong character (A Warrior, an Orc, Tauren in many cases) should be able to deal more than 1 point when hitting. A fast or agile character (A Rogue, a well-trained melee class, a gnome or Night elf) should have bonuses to his roll, instead of the standard /roll 1 - 100 it could be tuned to 10-100, 20-90 and even more precise numbers. There is also one last thing to take into account, the equipment could help or hinder the offending player. Heavy plate and heavy weapons should confer a penalty, but a heavier weapon should have the chance to deal more damage. Lighter weapons and armor should give bonuses to making the 'hit' but smaller weapons would hurt less.

Weapons- Weapon types should be considered. A sharp blade(Axes included) could stab, slash and sunder flesh easy, causing bleeding or rending organs. As a result, Blades should deal the *most* damage in the event of a clean hit. Blunt weapons like maces and hammers should be able to ignore a certain factor in armor, essentially *shocking* through. Now, this wouldn't necessarily make a man bleed to death, but it can cause blunt trauma and knock someone out (Ending fights faster) or breaking bones (Disabling the enemy). Players using blunt weapons should request an opportunity to roll for a K.O. in certain instances. To simplify: Blades would fatally injure, while Blunt weapons would ignore armor much easier. Damage should be kept balanced however.

Idea for system- Two rolls. One for Accuracy, it should be a 0-10 . A 10 would constitute a 'critical' hit where damage is no longer barred by the 'Resist' roll (Explained later - and relates to the 'Knife in the Plate'), whilst a 0 would give the defender a definite deflection or parry. The second roll would be for Damage, a 1-5 would work fine. The actual number rolled from here would translate into the damage done.


Old Defense: The defending player would /roll for his safety. If his roll was higher, he is safe for another turn and he gives a roll for offense. If not, he takes a blow.

Idea for Defense: There will still be a roll, but again, Character physical strength, dexterity, and equipment should affect bonuses and penalties, and whether or not certain hits will work. A physically powerful character should be able to ward off weak hits and be able to parry or reflect hits. I was thinking if the /roll of the defender was high enough above the offender he/she would pull off a parry and hurt the offender. When agility and speed is concerned, a fast character should be able to dodge, avoid, and block quickly against a hit and should get a bonus to his defense roll. As for equipment, shields and heavy armor should reduce damage taken in the event that it does happen. Plate armor should be able to fend off knives and slender blades off, while a mace or axe could crush through. Thinner armor like cloth and leather should be less effective against blocking off knives and shivs, but blunt weapons shouldn't get much of an extra bonus for weakly armored players.

Armor: A majority of players have some sort of In-Character armor or clothing. Now armor would be used to deflect a major amount of *damage* not negate being hit entirely. Armor's purpose in this system would be to reduce damage (Sometimes* negating it)

Idea for system: Again, two rolls. One for Evasion, This would rack up next to the Accuracy roll, higher number wins. Evasion would be affected by the type of a character defending with appropriate modifiers.(Weight of armor/weapon, Speed of character) If Evasion fails, the next roll is how much damage is Resisted. The Resisting roll would counter off damage rolls, and depending on the defenders armor or the situation, would subtract points of damage, even with a chance of resisting ALL. The hit would be a hit, it just wouldn't hurt. These would be called Resist Criticals, and would generally just be a counter.

Simplified system: 2 Rolls for Offense, small numbers are used. 2 Rolls for Defense, small numbers are used. Accuracy vs. Evasion, Damage vs. Resist. Resist can overshadow Accuracy. Accuracy can overshadow Resist. In the event Accuracy and Resist both get criticals, both sides can vote on both taking damage, or both defending (In which case, the offense get's a free roll.)

Now, this system seems extremely complex, and in an effort to simplify it, Here is how it works in a nutshell. Two rolls for offense and defense, if Offense's roll wins, they roll again for damage. If Defense's roll wins, they do not have to roll again. Smaller numbers are used, 1-10 and 1-5. This is a bare system. It is up to the player to recognize whether they deserve a bonus or penalty. As Qaza mentioned about her preferences, with the Bare system it would be a little less random, and when role-playing with someone you trust to be realistic, It gets far more in depth.

Now, I'm not done, by any means, and I'm still trying to brainstorm up with everyone. Please, feel free to share! (Thanks to those who already have!)

If this all looks like a foreign language, the purpose of all of this is for newer players (and veterans too) is to elaborate on warrior-characters. (Not the Warrior class, I mean soldiers, mercenaries, assassins, etc.) It is to easily explain a system where if you ever find yourself going up against a real fighter (who would have OOC equipment and an IC description) , you automatically can see a simple formula: Fighters beat non-fighters in fights. Your character's In-character skill should, in every sense of it, be translated into any type of conflict. If your character is a fighter, and you make it obvious, he should be able to transfer every essence of your character into the fight. His/her style, his/her equipment, his/her history as a warrior all should contribute to helping (and hindering) your character to a lawful balance. Diplomats talk, Artists create, Warriors fight.
I've been in very few fights where magic was used, healing was taken into account, and ranged weapons like guns and bows were used. I'd like people with experience to this to give some ideas that you'd think would work well.
One man
Two guns
Three friends
Four foes
XI Touch
I do understand your concern with the RP fighting and the rolls being on just luck, but the ways you are proposing would be a very difficult thing to control.

I mean, the example of the smaller and weaker blades such as daggers and small swords not being able to do anything to plate wearers is entirely wrong, I can give several accounts where plate wearing knights in old times were taken down by a small bronze dagger. You just gotta slip it in between the plates, or with a sword... a Blacksmith is a scholar at armor making, and they can look at armor and almost immediately tell weak points in it and strike those points, breaking the armor.

Your ideas are amazing when being written down, but being applied their a slight problem.

There are SO many factors that would apply to a fight's outcome that we would ALL need to whip out the old DnD character sheets to keep up with them all.

As well as people who aren't very seasoned to RPing, let alone RP Fighting, this would make their heads explode.

Like I said, as I applaud your idea, the physical reality of it is much much much more complicated.
Mekkodin Kotorin Firebeard

I'm gonna part yer hair wi' this axe ye nauseatin' wussy footed spyrokeet gas bag !

Ye pig faced puppy killin' stick O' manure !

What's this about you breathin' my air ? ye scabby arsed bairn stealin' bile bag !
Quote:Lighter weapons and armor should give bonuses to making the 'hit' but smaller weapons would hurt less.

I am pretty sure a dagger in your heart will hurt as much as an axe in your skull. The outcome would probably be the same anyway.

Roll systems are very unfair, emote-battles are risky and PvP is very gear dependent, one have to choose the best solution depending on the situation.

Anyway, I´m sure you can figure something out with your brainstorming.
All makt åt Tengil, vår befriare!

I have to Agree with GaldorXII...

But since its a dice roll, no matter your armor/skills, luck does have a great thing to say.

But As GaldorXII Mentioned, Its a cool Idear, really!
But it will be problematic to create In the game! Im A new guy, And I saw this, by Accident. I didnt even know (for a person, playing wow RP server for over 1 year) that you can use /roll after using an "Attack" Interact Emote...

So all new people would HAVE to read all on the forums, every single post (becourse that would be hard, having atleast 100+ post I bet.) If we dont wanna miss out on Important things, such as this!

Most would go dead and leave. So rather have an Easy useable system.

Great Idear, but not for WoW I think... sorry to say.

KronosDK's Opinion
"You will always be my friend, even if I was never your friend.""
Hate, is an Illusion, Love, is an Illusion, Pain is a Illusion, But that doesnt mean, none of them cant hurt you..."
There´s allways Roll, Roll, Roll my...dice? (don´t necro it) it works pretty well and simple, you can add any number of bonuses and penalties you want.
All makt åt Tengil, vår befriare!

I think anyone who could just think logical could apply stuff easily, instead of trying to make it as realistic as possible. It's off course a + to make it more realistic, but it's way too hard to remember.. (At least for me)

If you just use logical sense it can easily be applied. However I DO like the idea, it just seems a bit too hard, unless it could be merged with the server.. Wich would require as much modding as NWN2 used.

For example of logical senses, could be the incident we had at the ship.

Gorram & Kaiza & Syrenia vs. Miriam & Keets

Default HP = 5

Kaiza was tripped to the floor, so she started with 4
Gorram, being war veteran started with 6, but he applied -5 to his rolls, because of his old age.
Keets and Miriam had no handicap, other than being outnumbered.

~ Kaiza
Kaiza ~ "Heeeeeeeeh?"
Masa'Shira ~ "Choo zhurr?"
Xiao'Lin ~ "Hello darling."
Millian ~ "Thou shall find thy happiness when thou seek for thee."
Chiring ~ "Foy! Come on minion! ...Hrmf..."
Wow, nice system...

But, hey, Why aint that a Sticky?!

It will be hard finding that system, I cant find it without your Link...

(edit: Message for Nostra ))
"You will always be my friend, even if I was never your friend.""
Hate, is an Illusion, Love, is an Illusion, Pain is a Illusion, But that doesnt mean, none of them cant hurt you..."
The post has been moved to the Articles and Guides section for easy access!

My input for this is that, as others have mentioned, a balance needs to be struck. If it's too complicated to remember on the fly and involves a long setup with people arguing why this particular blade should get a bonus because it's got little ridges on it for bloodletting, etc... I'll be utterly frank. People won't use it. In general, people want to get right into the fun part, the battle itself.

I'm of the school of thought that there is a time and a place for all of the different fighting "systems", depending on what's going on, and the players involved. Personally, I mix it up. If I know the other player well, we might just stick to emote battles because I trust them to take damage when it makes sense, and they trust me to do the same. If it's someone I've never interacted with before, I am painfully shy about beginning a rolled fight, but that is my preference, as I don't know the player's trustworthiness OOCly. I've also really enjoyed simple rolled duels among friends for a more uncertain outcome. If the roll system was that complicated, I wouldn't use it. Subtracting a hitpoint for someone who's at a disadvantage is about as far as I'd go, and they'd have to be at a really terrible disadvantage.
[Image: Q1-1.png]

"We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
~Kurt Vonnegut
After reading everyone's post I've added some to the original post and I've also got some more to say. What Nostra and Galdor saying about the knife thing, you say it can kill, and yes it can. What I'd like to make clearer is that I didn't mean it wouldn't hurt, it still will, just not as much under the circumstances the knife or thin blade hits plate. I've added a bit about how 'criticals' will work in the system. Also the low numbers for the roll clean up a bit of the blind luck that could happen, making it more common to pull off a critical. The Critical's purpose isn't to deal more damage, it's to ignore armor and any type of a defense, which is what I'd expect from someone who is using a knife to take down a well-armored soldier. (You can stab harder into a brick wall, or you can get precise, and hit that itsy bitsy gap that wasn't filled out.)

As for Qaza and her post about using different systems for different occasions. I understand, and that is something I thought this up for. This system I wanted to leave for IC fights that could seriously threaten the lives of the character. Leaving something completely up to a number 1 in a 100 is almost heartbreaking to whoever just happens to be unluckier. Completely emoted fights, are in my opinion, the most fun. Thing is, you must trust who your role-playing against, some will just persist and won't take a beating, even if you have, and even if it was realistic that they would get hit. So many seconds and minutes are spent by that player while he/she thinks of a way to negate your completely acceptable and logical emote. (Bob takes the wooden baseball bat and swings hard for the blinded Larry. Larry in a split second, manages to see the bat and dodges 'matrix-style')

Although I'm still working this out in my head, I'll need more help and constructive criticism to make it more simple and more fair. I'd like this system I'm brainstorming, to be used for fights where your character is in serious danger, or you are in a very competitive situation, and luck just wont cut it.

(By the way, I made the thread at midnight on a Sunday, and I may have explained a few things off. :? )
One man
Two guns
Three friends
Four foes
XI Touch
Hi. Uncle Krent here, coming to tell a nice little story.

Once upon a time, there was a role play server for World of Warcraft called "Argent Dawn". On this role play server were three crazy little kids; Vistern (who is currently known as 'Krent') Sivex (BET YOU'LL NEVER GUESS WHO HE IS NOW!) and Neokhan. These three little kids liked to RP it up on the RP server, and were generally logical d00ds. A bit screwed up in the brain, but weren't into any of that death knight / vampire BS infecting 'ol AD.

They got along really well....except when it came with dealing with the masses. While I won't name names, there were individuals who absolutely had no idea on what 'humility' meant or could even conceive the concept of having their character being hurt. After having to deal with a God-moding Paladin (Who RP'd a Death Knight - go figure) who was able to escape a group -nine- Role Players with little injury, Siv Vist Neo decided to band together to make a system.

The idea was....that this system was going to be simple. Idiot proof. Something you could explain to someone very quickly, very easily, and didn't rely on complex DnD style character sheets. It was a very simple premise - set HP to a certain number, /roll 100's, let it flow out very quickly. The whole idea behind this system was that it was something you could explain to a random stranger in the matter of two or so minutes before a fight, and they'd be able to pick up on it immediately.

After Siv Neo and Vist spent many long nights experimenting with different stuff (Having HP values, 'Special attributes', armor ratings, etc), it was decided that the best thing to do was to keep it as simple as possible. Short and concise. No fancy memorization needed, with enough flexibility to allow other people to mod it however they saw fit - example being what Kaiza posted with her setting different HP values and adding + or - to rolls based on the character's composition.

Siv added his own rule set when he posted his "Roll Roll Roll my dice" thread. It works very well. Now, I can understand why some people don't like it as there is a high amount of luck involved in it (I've been on the end of a baaaaadddd string of rolls before and it is sad), it's much better than the alternative emote-based or PvP style of fighting. Hence, the reason why it's used as the loose standard it is today on this server.

....and why it's going to be used for this upcoming Beach Event tournament, which seems to be the reason why all this talk is starting in the first place. When Olleander came to me about choosing a fighting system for her tournament, I chose to go with the plain and simplified 'vanilla' version of this system. Why? Because we're looking at a very large number of people entering into the tournament, and we simply don't have enough time to develop a specified stat system for each individual character, nor do we want any fights dragging on for hours on end. I know the flaws, yes. I know the system is cold-hearted in regards to character individuality, yes. The system does not see you as a beautiful unique snowflake; everyone has the same chance to do either really well or really bad in combat.

I know it's boring at times....but for the purposes of this tournament, it's the necessary of greater evils. I've seen far too many instances of god-moding in my time, in EVERY type of RP medium you could imagine, and I just don't trust entering into combat with anyone I don't know well OOC'ly without using rolls. My feelings towards the subject are almost an exact re-iteration of what Qaza posted.

Now, though, I do appreciate the effort you are making with this system and hope it turns out the best for you. But I won't be changing the fighting standard for the Beach Event tournament.

"What a mess we made, when it all went wrong..."
Krent Wrote:Now, though, I do appreciate the effort you are making with this system and hope it turns out the best for you. But I won't be changing the fighting standard for the Beach Event tournament.

I didn't want you to change your tournament. Honestly, I think the 1-100 roll works better for that anyway.

Krent Wrote:The system does not see you as a beautiful unique snowflake; everyone has the same chance to do either really well or really bad in combat.

Maybe not, but not everyone likes to leave their character's likelihood with the flip of a coin. Also, I'd like to say that not everyone is equal, and different modifiers should be considered. I want to hear other people's ideas about this. I want to think up a system that would be a little less governed by luck. From reading your story, your /roll system you used on retail sounds like a defense mechanism against godmoding faker Death-Knights. Sure, it brings them down to earth with you and sure it's fair.

But, not every conflict is fair, and not every character is clean-cut equal. Now it is very important individual players remember this whenever they get in a IC fight. This little alteration to your system is just another way to look at it and pretty much, the same thing, just done differently. I thought it out to be balanced and fair 'technically' but at the same time, to eliminate the feeling that your character's fate is mercy to a 1-100 chance. I've tried to incorporate a state of mind, and a new system that could make fights seem more fair, and more realistic. It's not there to replace, it's just another way to go about IC fighting that's more centered for characters who are In-character fighters. (I've lost IC fights that are just ridiculous. It's like, Mike Tyson vs. The Mailman.)

To add on, I didn't want to make a system so that a specific character of mine would always win. I want a little different way, so that actual well-made, developed fighter characters don't lose to the bartender, or the mailman, or the schoolteacher, without taking into account the Fighter has a clear advantage.

/applaud for your roll system, but I'd like to be able to IC fight where the characters that are born fighters win fights. It is very hard to explain to a newer character that yours has some clear advantage, I'd like people to be more aware.
One man
Two guns
Three friends
Four foes
XI Touch
While you may not want to leave the choice of character life or death to a coin-flip... You have the choice beforehand to refuse completely to make that roll.

If you want to live, don't take the risk. If you can handle losing, take the risk.

The following applies to fights where loss of life is the result. Keep in mind that you don't always have to die at the end of a fight.
"My companions' feelings have been etched onto my body.
I'll change this eternal darkness to light!
Heaven and Earth...
One body, one soul!

Chouginga, Gurren-Lagann!

I'll show you...
The power of mankind!"
Delmure Wrote:While you may not want to leave the choice of character life or death to a coin-flip... You have the choice beforehand to refuse completely to make that roll.

If you want to live, don't take the risk. If you can handle losing, take the risk.

As role-players we are supposed to stick to our character, If our character doesn't run IC, our OOC fears shouldn't get in the way. That is the precise reason I stay in true and see through every conflict. My Alternates do *not* fight, If you've ever role-played with them, they would do everything in their power to avoid fights.

Delmure Wrote:The following applies to fights where loss of life is the result. Keep in mind that you don't always have to die at the end of a fight.

Very very true. This brainstorming is just for when death/maiming is a possibility. Taking into account how many characters would like to exercise their ability to kill, this thread is here to show how certain characters are just better at fighting, and how they should be compensated slightly versus someone else. (I'd like both sides to get bonuses and penalties, I'm not trying to take sides.)

Also, I'd like to stay to topic where we are discussing ideas, not how I am wrong in someway.
One man
Two guns
Three friends
Four foes
XI Touch
Quote:it's just another way to go about IC fighting that's more centered for characters who are In-character fighters. (I've lost IC fights that are just ridiculous. It's like, Mike Tyson vs. The Mailman.)

What if the "Mailman" uses his spells and engulfs your fighter in flames?

Just curious as there´s soo many different things you have to take into account. Magic, agility, stealth... How quick you move the weapon and to where.
All makt åt Tengil, vår befriare!

That's what I've been asking for, other people's help, not their criticism.(Ok, maybe a little constructive criticism!) I want to know about what the Hunter's, Shaman's, and in your case, homicidal apothecary Mage's have to say as in how their respective fighting style comes into play. I want to know how they would operate, and how that holds up to the Arnold Schwarzenneger, Mike Tysons, Greek Gladiator Spartans of the server.

I *tried* to explain how a Rogue would fit in the system too, introducing how Criticals work, and how, maybe their strength wont do it, but their accuracy and speed will. Tell me more about the Magic, then.
One man
Two guns
Three friends
Four foes
XI Touch

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