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Well...

What makes implenting new things complicated in a community like CotH is that, first of all, it requires work to develop the idea and while we're brainstorming about the possible implementation, there are a lot of things to consider. How well it meshes with the other policies and ideals we try to stick to, primarily, but also what the playerbase is asking for. The last thing we want to do is make things harder for the players than they already are, even if... certain areas could use stricter rulesets (because rules also offer a sense of security; they're guidelines and hand-holders, after all). So, the hardest part is to find a way to implement something without making it into a bunch of extra work for people.

... Not to mention our last little attempt at simplifying something, albeit a small and, for some, insignificant detail... was met with scepticism and, frankly, a hefty serving of bile. :P

So, the second hardest part about it all is to make a change that is ultimately desired by the community. A community which is extremely divided on their opinions of what actually needs to be changed since people seem to have very different ideas of what the real problem is. (Then, of course, there's the matter of letting the proposals pass through our risk-assessments without stirring up too much unease; our job's just as much about prevention as it is about handling issues when they have already popped up.)

There is a lot of hesitation in any discussion about any possible changes. Even if things change, it might not be the kind of change people were hoping for and that creates a backlash. It's always been a problem on CotH that the community tends to... expect too much to happen too quickly, so people just end up getting disappointed and angry and the people who discussed the ideas get discouraged and decide against pursuing them any further.

Ramble ramble.
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I'm not asking anyone to take it on alone, the GM team could certainly crowdsource ideas, work with the community to have an outline of objectives. In fact, I think that would be the preferred method. The more involved the community is with an event, the more likely they are to want to contribute and see it succeed. If it's an issue of manpower then I'll begin organizing it myself, pass along what I gather to the GM team. I just see big problems and I feel it will take a big solution. And I'm not suggesting we need to have the event next week, it could be months out after the dust settles and decisions are made.

You mention not wanting to fix something that doesn't need fixing, well look through the fifteen pages of this thread and tell me that my idea addresses an issue that wasn't brought up? Does it fix everything, no, but it gets the big ones I keep seeing. Frankly I think this would be the easiest fix, if you try to do everything separately then we're back to square one, not enough manpower to implement a new procedure to address every individual concern.

If it truly is an issue of manpower, hours dedicated to getting everything right, then don't feel the need to shoulder the burden on your own. Even the greats know when to ask for help and, so far as I can see, you have an entire community waiting for that call.
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(10-21-2013, 11:38 AM)Beltharean Wrote: @Grakor456: World Interaction: WoW's lore, quite frankly, took a turn for the horrible. You should really try and reconsider your opinion on keeping the server specifically Blizz-like. Let people change the lore; Let people feel important.

I'm going to respond to this because it's related to an assumption that really, really bothers me. So, let me make one thing clear:

I am not some boss-man that is single-handedly restricting lore changes. When I returned to the server, I made it clear that I would have only minimal impact on CotH's creative direction: I voice my opinion now and then, and often I'm the guy that relays information, but I am not a dictator that is saying "We must always be Blizz-like, guys!" It might surprise people to know that for one, there are other GMs, and even Kretol, that have been very hesitant to step away from the canon Blizzard lore, and two, I hate Blizzard lore and would be happy to do something different if it weren't for the fact that other GMs would try to tear me apart at the suggestion. I've, personally, been wanting to move on from WoW RP myself for a long time now.

That all said, let me say something else...

You can't just blame the ruling on not changing canon lore for server stagnation. That's a scapegoat at best. Nothing has ever stopped people from making their own stories: their own enemies to fight, their own important people to save, their own artifacts to find, their own villages to defend and lairs to raid. Not a single thing has ever stopped any of that. In fact, we generally encourage this sort of thing, because we all know WoW isn't built to scale and there's going to be other places out in the world besides those represented in the game. People are getting too hung up on their inability to change canon storylines instead of making their own custom storylines that can be just as important and heroic for the type of character we frequently RP on CotH.

In short, you can't just blame us. Players take part of the blame as well.
Have you hugged an orc today?
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I have been on the server for three years...and have been apart of a never ending storyline for at least two and a half of these three years. We find our own artifacts, we make up our own big-wigs bosses. We throw in organizations that don't exists but they could and might so we use them. The group I have been in has allowed us to be the 'big damn hero' in our own story for the longest of time, and it wasn't just an instant 'hero' thing either. My character worked hard to get recognized by the others in the line. We have not been stagnate or stale or anything of the sort. Best part?

The DM has always let new people enter the storyline so long as they're willing to suspend a little disbelief at what's going on. The inability to find RP? I'm not seeing it.

A few days ago, someone on GMI was complaining that there was no RP. I grabbed a friend, hopped into silvermoon and advertised RP there. That RP went on for a full day, different people hopping in and out. It was that easy - but people were still complaining about there being no RP in GMI, even though there were six of us in silvermoon. The issue isn't 'there's no RP', the issue is 'There is no RP I personally want to do at the moment so I will sit out of anything that does pop up instead of trying it.'.

...S' all I have to say.

[To be clear, I also am not against custom lore. I'm fine with it and fine without it.]
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One of the reasons I created Red Glove was to make a personal hero-villain storyline for players to be as big of heroes as they wanted to be. It's still going on, folks. RP will be made available as long as there are players for it.

There is no need to be picky in what you consider "RP" or not. We can't afford to be picky.
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The whole point is that if you want storylines or interesting RP, you can't just have GMs baby you. Even before I was on staff (Oh god, like five years ago), we would create our own storylines. Whether it was doing fun random events (Hydra testicles anyone?), teaching/tutor characters in the art of whatever, or hell, just getting lost on your way to Booty Bay, we weren't afraid to do it by yourself.

And that is something that has to happen to all players, having enough want for entertainment that you go out and do it on your own. Some of the most fun and captivating storylines I have been on CotH over the previous five years was made up and run by run of the mill players.
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(10-24-2013, 01:22 PM)Reigen Wrote: A few days ago, someone on GMI was complaining that there was no RP. I grabbed a friend, hopped into silvermoon and advertised RP there. That RP went on for a full day, different people hopping in and out. It was that easy - but people were still complaining about there being no RP in GMI, even though there were six of us in silvermoon. The issue isn't 'there's no RP', the issue is 'There is no RP I personally want to do at the moment so I will sit out of anything that does pop up instead of trying it.'.

Before you had come ingame I had tried to make three different rps. I was that person complaining about there being no rp. But perhaps I was saying it wrong. "No one wants to rp what I'm offering." That's becoming a bigger and bigger thorn in my side. I try to make things each and every day to entice and get people to rp, but no one wants to.

I also noticed something else, those people who went into your rp? All of them had gotten on the same time you had. I went for two hours trying to get people to rp and no one wanted to. It sucked. It still sucks. I'm starting to do less and less because of it. People just aren't that interested in doing anything I have to offer. Bump in the Night is one of the few things that people seem interested in.

Its probably just because of the people I'm online with. they don't want to rp and just sit around GMI. When you offered your rp they stayed in GMI. When I offered rp they stayed in GMI. Peoples drive to rp is dropping, and in turn its dropping my drive to host anything.

You can't blame players for not hosting something when after weeks of trying to with many different ideas no one seems to be interested. It kills your drive to do it, so most people these days don't bother. They don't want the crickets they get when they offer something.
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I understand getting frustrated when no one takes up an offer, but we can all try not to let that frustration rule us.

Sometimes just asking isn't enough. Standing around on GMI going "do you wanna RP" doesn't cut the cake. It takes going out to the location and saying a few times over LFG: "Hey, I'm here. I'm public. I'm ready for RP so come on down."

If no one shows up, it sucks, but it can't be the end of the world. The first event I ever ran, that was a week long, only five people showed up. I was discouraged and almost ready to call it, but rather than doing so, I ran it anyway. And you know what? We had -fun-. Sure, there wasn't a lot of us, but we had -fun- and that's really all that matters. My second event wasn't that great either, one member of the event actually ended up killing another. [Lendri and Delta's troll, IIRC]. I was discouraged at first, because it wasn't what I wanted...but then I realized it made a different type of RP. Conflict.

I'd also like to say something about cliques. GM or otherwise.

What's honestly so bad about them? Is it wrong to have a group of friends you know you can go to for RP if you want too? I don't feel ashamed to say I'm part of one, and it's nice to know that when I log in I can poke one of them and I'll likely get some RP. I understand that closed groups are the issue, but there's always going to be that problem. I don't think we have any right to shame people who do closed RP for their own storylines, just like I don't think we can place a solid blame on anything as to why the server population is down.

I'm going to RP with my friends, and if someone thinks I'm being elitist in doing so, why don't you try to...I don't know...join the group? Get your RP noticed by them? Get invited in, get to know the people OOCly and become part of the group rather than complaining about them.
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(10-24-2013, 01:44 PM)Cressy Wrote: (Hydra testicles anyone?)

I've only posted in this thread in order to giggle like a school girl.

Carry on.
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(10-24-2013, 04:19 PM)Krilari Wrote:
(10-24-2013, 01:44 PM)Cressy Wrote: (Hydra testicles anyone?)

I've only posted in this thread in order to giggle like a school girl.

Carry on.

That ship was never the same after that hydra slammed them upon it.
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*raises hand* Am I the only person who doesn't have a problem with CotH? I seem to be the only one who likes it how it is. *lowers hand*
“Fairy tales do not tell children that dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children that dragons can be killed.”
— G.K. Chesterton

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Have a puppy Ruby and a nice day.
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(10-24-2013, 05:01 PM)MstrCorvus Wrote: *raises hand* Am I the only person who doesn't have a problem with CotH? I seem to be the only one who likes it how it is. *lowers hand*

I can't say I got a big problem myself, just been trying to lend my brainfarts to the crowd to see what comes out of it. I came back after months of absence, poked a few people, got RP on the first day. Poked some more people, met a peon, got along with the peon, got more RP. Yeah, I still idle a lot on GMI.. But I sorta like just chatting on that island as well.

Also. I still owed you RP, but its past 3 am now. I haven't forgotten. <3 I planned to go to bed three hours ago, I got no life really.

Quote:I'm going to RP with my friends, and if someone thinks I'm being elitist in doing so, why don't you try to...I don't know...join the group?

As for you, @Reigen! I recall having bugged you for over twenty times at least. Today included. I'm going to start counting them out now. (In all fairness, we just got awful timing. One of these days we'll have RP, or I'm going to cry. I'm not going to stop trying, but I'm going to shed my manly tears over and over till a new ocean is formed. Then I can buy a boat, sail your way, get in your timezone, hook my laptop up to your interwebs and RP. And you'll be freaked out by a stranger stealing your internet. Be warned.)

"But Psychyn, isn't there already an oc-"
*Gunshot*

Carry on.

Edit: Honestly, this is me just posting crap as my brain died three hours ago. Carry on.
Edit2: Okay, maybe the message is to just keep trying! I know it can be discouraging, but if you can't RP with em, stir some OOC chatter up and they'll remember you for next time. Yup.
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I don't seem to have the luck you people do. The people I use to be in a clique with? All have left either because they don't want to be on the server or RL. So now I'm a drifter, trying to find a new clique to get into, but to no real avail.

Constantly trying to get people to rp is tiresome. I just don't think it's right to get annoyed with people because they don't want to start something but join something instead. I'll keep trying as I always do. Tomorrow I might just do something I haven't done in years now to see what happens. But I don't really have any expectations on people wanting to join.

The message of this? Don't get annoyed at people who sit in GMI waiting for rp to fall in their laps. More often then note they've already tried to start some but no one was interested.
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(10-24-2013, 04:04 PM)Reigen Wrote: I'd also like to say something about cliques. GM or otherwise.

What's honestly so bad about them? Is it wrong to have a group of friends you know you can go to for RP if you want too? I don't feel ashamed to say I'm part of one, and it's nice to know that when I log in I can poke one of them and I'll likely get some RP. I understand that closed groups are the issue, but there's always going to be that problem. I don't think we have any right to shame people who do closed RP for their own storylines, just like I don't think we can place a solid blame on anything as to why the server population is down.

I'm going to RP with my friends, and if someone thinks I'm being elitist in doing so, why don't you try to...I don't know...join the group? Get your RP noticed by them? Get invited in, get to know the people OOCly and become part of the group rather than complaining about them.

The issue isn't really about groups of friends that RP together in general. The idea of a clique on the server is that there is one big group that looks down on the rest. A group that if you aren't part of it, then you aren't worth much. As I said before. It's the 'cool kids' of the server. That's what the clique is most seen as. At least, that's what I hear it seen as most often.

It's not just that someone has a group of friends that they know they can trust and that they prefer to go to to RP with. That's fine. I had that when I played on the server. I mean, that's expected for people to have a number of people they feel more comfortable with.

But that's not what is seen as elitest or bad or anything like that. What I was referring to, and what I assume some others have referred to is the groups that form up like a big ball. I for one will say that if I were to make up a list of people I believe to be in any clique in particular, it would be MOST of the staff members, and a few others who have either been staff members in the past or are likely to become some in the future.

And yes, I have seen first hand that members of this clique treat those outside of it badly. I have seen those people doing wrong time and time again, yet nothing ever seems to happen. I mean, maybe they get a slap on the hand behind closed doors, as punishment isn't usually public unless it's a ban. But that's it. I have seen some people who were really nasty to me in the past climb the ranks to a staff member. Why? What other reason do I have to assume than they are friends with the other staff members, which they were.

Like I said. It's not about the groups of friends that RP together and stick together as you would expect friends to do. It's about a clique of people usually with power over others who look down on those that aren't a part of said group in a way that they don't want to do anything with them. It's very much like the cool kids in school.

You have the naturally cool kids who for one reason or another, hold power over the rest of the community. And then you have the other people who suck up to them and do whatever they are told to do by the cool kids, and in return they get pulled in and considered part of the cool kid group as well. And this causes them to have a snobby attitude, a sense of "I am more important than you, you aren't worth my time." Almost a "Everyone but those in our group are losers" feeling.

Regardless of my feelings, I won't make any accusations. I won't flat out say "The staff formed a clique and have X and Y people in it and they all treat everyone else like crap." I won't do anything like that. But this is the type of Clique most people are talking about. Maybe not everyone, but most. The particular clique being the one that shuts others out as if nobody else is worth their time.

In a sense, the 'elite' group of the server.

Like the best raiding group in a guild. They look down on the others because they haven't been around as long, or they haven't progressed as far as them. And they shut the others out in a sort of "You aren't as good as us, you aren't part of our team, get lost." attitude.

I know I went around in circles there a lot. Just trying to get the idea across.

Essentially, and to put it bluntly... the idea of the clique is the staff members and the favorites they pick that never seem to get in trouble and treat everyone else like crap because, hey why not, they can because they are buddies with the staff so they are protected.

I can't say I care about people forming groups of friends whether it's the entire staff and a collection of friends or just a random bunch of non staff members. But when negativity starts coming out from said group and nothing is done about it, conclusions are drawn for the reasoning behind it. And a lot of bad behavior has come from people that were close to the staff and they didn't seem to get punished. Like an example I said before. Someone acting so nasty to other people, and then suddenly they get bumped up to forum helper, when others get banned for acting even just a fraction as badly.

And the idea of joining the groups to stop the bad behavior doesn't work. It works with the idea that it's just a circle of friends, but not the idea of a clique I am talking about. That's never something I would want to be a part of. I was treated very badly by a member of one such clique from the moment I joined the server. I would have been driven away if I didn't have one very good friend to keep me here.

But others? They may not be so lucky and if that's the experience people get for being new to the server it's no wonder they don't stick around often.
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I disagree.

While you may write off my views as biased, I have always been here with a grain of salt and a veil of distance from everyone excluding very few close friends. If someone does something worthy of punishment, in my eyes, they should receive the punishment regardless of their position. I have voiced my opinion regarding this morality consistently through my stay here at COTH.

However, you are correct in the sense that 'cliques' (a term which should be used very loosely), do arise. People make friends, just as you have yours and I have mine. One thing I feel as though you are missing is the fact that nobody here is omnipresent, nor does everyone know their fellow member in and out, and how they act and react around certain people, or under certain light. Although you may feel as though someone is just simply skirting away under the law due to 'friendship' status and this 'clique' business, have you considered that the people with the authority to do something do not see what you have seen?

Quote:I have seen some people who were really nasty to me in the past climb the ranks to a staff member.

If someone is wrong to you, on areas that are within the server's enforcement/jurisdiction of justice, you should hold yourself accountable for reporting the act and person in question. In the past, some people on the server have been very wrong to me, and I foolishly did not alert anyone in position. It is as though they had not done it. Nobody else had seen this transgression. If you feel as though someone's actions against you are worthy of not being on staff, or otherwise valid punishment you feel they avoided due to friendship with staff members or being a staff member themselves, then Kretol and Grakor need to be notified and conversed with. I know for a fact that no staff member is above punishment. Many before have been banned right out of staff and off the server for life, for both social infractions and rule breaking.

And, say, if you had reported the person for a infraction that would have otherwise banned another, you must understand that there is a distinct grey area of suspension decision that must be considered of both the person's social and infraction history. They may have been reported for a hundred other things that someone, again lacking omnipresence, would have never known occurred. If you feel that justice and rightfulness was not reached concerning someone's actions, especially in the place of perceived favoritism, then you must be active in pursuing a resolution with our administration. Holding up people's infractions and taking them personally, grudgingly, and without reporting, hurts the community as a whole.

I do not mean any of this in anger or in argument with anyone else, I just wanted to pipe in with how I feel people should be acting on infractions in the server. A lack of reporting and vigilance has changed the social makeup of the community, and I feel as though it's a major factor as to why I don't really want to be on anymore. I see a lot of things go unpunished and unreported, and although I tried to keep with it and I certainly could be wrong on the current state of affairs, it seems as though the system is just not done the way it once was.
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