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#76
(10-05-2013, 07:26 AM)Rini Wrote:
(10-04-2013, 10:07 PM)Diethe Wrote: Sorry about the 'quality of RP' post. Somehow it blew up to big proportions, but at least it got talked about.

I feel like this is directed towards me, and my post in response to your mention of lower quality in your post. If it's not, no worries! But I didn't feel my post was blown out of proportions, nor do I want anyone to, and I feel like this is kind of off-handedly directed at me. (Again, sorry if I'm reading into this wrong!) Considering how very many people on this thread have complained time after time amongst their friends about the declining quality who are now contradicting themselves in their public posts, I'm slightly confused as to the matters, but I still believe that some action - matter how small - should be taken in terms of helping poorer roleplayers do better with gentle pushes and words of encouragement. If that doesn't work, and they become utterly hostile, it should indeed be taken to the GM team. I'd just like to see how, if any actions are being planned to be taken, things will turn out!

I've complained about some things when it comes to that. However, that doesn't mean that I think something can or should be done about it. One of the problems we face and have faced multiple times is... how do we police something like that? And, should we? Not just that, but how do we do the "gentle nudging", without coming off as snobs or people that think we just do everything right? The problem is that it's almost impossible to do, unless we just do so by example.

Helping people is one thing. Forcing them is another. Not saying you're suggesting we force something on people, but it's something I'm trying to clarify.

If people become hostile, that's another matter entirely. However, that is again a two way street. It's easy to see why some people become hostile over situations like that. Essentially, trying to "improve" someone's RP or concepts is something that involves confrontation. Confrontation can be taken as hostile, in which case the person would react, and not favorably. Again, I speak from experience here.
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#77
I've been missing for awhile because I was hired as a QA Tester for a games studio. I had to be removed as a GM because I literally had and have no time to devote to CotH for right now, as I'm a full-time student and a part-time QA tester.

Also, it may not be my place anymore, but PMs are there for a reason, guys.
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#78
(10-05-2013, 08:54 AM)Harmonic Wrote:
(10-05-2013, 07:26 AM)Rini Wrote:
(10-04-2013, 10:07 PM)Diethe Wrote: Sorry about the 'quality of RP' post. Somehow it blew up to big proportions, but at least it got talked about.

I feel like this is directed towards me, and my post in response to your mention of lower quality in your post. If it's not, no worries! But I didn't feel my post was blown out of proportions, nor do I want anyone to, and I feel like this is kind of off-handedly directed at me. (Again, sorry if I'm reading into this wrong!) Considering how very many people on this thread have complained time after time amongst their friends about the declining quality who are now contradicting themselves in their public posts, I'm slightly confused as to the matters, but I still believe that some action - matter how small - should be taken in terms of helping poorer roleplayers do better with gentle pushes and words of encouragement. If that doesn't work, and they become utterly hostile, it should indeed be taken to the GM team. I'd just like to see how, if any actions are being planned to be taken, things will turn out!

I've complained about some things when it comes to that. However, that doesn't mean that I think something can or should be done about it. One of the problems we face and have faced multiple times is... how do we police something like that? And, should we? Not just that, but how do we do the "gentle nudging", without coming off as snobs or people that think we just do everything right? The problem is that it's almost impossible to do, unless we just do so by example.

Helping people is one thing. Forcing them is another. Not saying you're suggesting we force something on people, but it's something I'm trying to clarify.

If people become hostile, that's another matter entirely. However, that is again a two way street. It's easy to see why some people become hostile over situations like that. Essentially, trying to "improve" someone's RP or concepts is something that involves confrontation. Confrontation can be taken as hostile, in which case the person would react, and not favorably. Again, I speak from experience here.

As one of the people who have been told and helped by -many- people sense my first day here, I think just sending a friendly whisper of suggestions is a good thing. I think people should be more willing -to- whisper "Hey man, noticed something about you're rp. Mind if I say something?"

People wont take it as hostile as you would think. I was one of those people back in the day who on the first day got into a whisper chat with someone (I forgot the name, the person helped me so much) about how the server works, what chats to use, how .lo rp worked, and so on. Some people might not want the help, yeah, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't try to help. Who knows, they may want it but don't know how to ask.

-Edit- Holy crap an incomplete sentence up there. Damn I'm sorry.
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#79
(10-05-2013, 12:21 AM)McKnighter Wrote: I might be a little late on posting this, but I'll keep it short and sweet.

CotH has always been about keeping true to Blizzard lore and keeping the field static because of past troubles with custom lore, which is and has always been a major turn off for me. It might seem a bit 'gamey', but I always want to see and feel progression with my character. However, the server's policies passively hinder such. There's no more prestige classes, conquest RP is forbidden, most world dynamic events are simply ones that we already know the outcome of. It just feels so controlled and restricted that I've literally taken the majority of my remaining CotH RP and put it in Skype so I didn't have to obey certain rules and tread on others' toes.

I've used the majority of my creative mind to make RP with our limited tools(granted I'm not very creative), and I reached a point where I just found myself bored. Everything feels lackluster, and I was attracted by greener pastures.

But, no doubt I'll return at some point, just not anytime soon.

Addressing the issue of Conquest RP-

CotH's stance has been against this for a while, and for good reasons. The server was stuck in a limbo state post-Lich King but pre-Cataclysm, and of course we don't want wild crazy things going on like the Alliance taking over the Crossroads or some hooey like that. With no idea where the lore was going, we would only be left with original ideas, which ultimately lead to confusion. Furthermore, when the custom conquest stuff is over, there's no follow up, and the area fizzles out, leaving it in limbo.

HOWEVER-

That was LK. Cata is much, much different.

In Cata, conquest is the name of the game for a large part of the lore. The Alliance is IN the barrens, attacking Mulgore. The Horde IS attacking Theramore/Northwatch. They are fighting each other in the Highlands, the Forsaken invade Hillsbrad, even Swamp of Sorrows and freakin' -Blasted Lands- get some of the action, to list a FEW.

So why do we still hold this aversion to changing the world through war RP? Changing the world is what Cata is -all about-, and if our goal is to remain strict and true to the Blizzard standard, then we should embrace it whole heartedly and enjoy all the possibilities it has to offer. And I don't just mean we role play some minor task while unseen NPCs do all the heavy lifting- that is robbing us as a player base of the experience.

Yes, we want to avoid people chumming up with Lore Heroes like Varian and Garrosh. Yes, we want to avoid power creep in characters by having them be veterans of every major battle in Cataclysm. But ultimately, CotH is but one continuity, out of many. While it is good and indeed in my opinion LOVED that CotH adheres to canon and does not stray off into the lands of crazy made up bullcrap, CotH itself is not "canon"; there is no Cristovao di Silvio or Jared Richter or Kretol Earthshaker as far as Blizzard is concerned. CotH is -OUR- continuity, and we should not be afraid to SHAPE our continuity with our CHARACTERS. Why -can't- we be the heroes who stand by the sides of dragons against the Twilight's Hammer? Or the brave soldiers who destroy a particular Horde/Alliance base and kill their commander like at the end of the quest chain? Yes, we still must be a face in the crowd, but dammit let us BE a part of that CROWD!

Player characters should never elevate themselves to status of lore heroes for Role Play, because that is egotistical and leads to problems, but should be no problems in being a contributor to the big picture. Look at what people loved about CotH in the past: Hearthglen comes to mind especially. We got to -BE- a part of that changing lore, we got to be one of the many who took the city for the Crusade. We got to CONTRIBUTE to a major, world changing lore event, and THEN afterwards we got to KEEP it real and contribute further by leading Argent soldiers against the Scourge, but role playing the town's politics. In the Blizzard canon, was Hearthglen's council Annabelle Greene, Kil'shi Rendtear, Clovis Briarthorn and Stephen Lachlann? Probably not, they're no-named faceless NPCs. But in -CotH's- continuity, we got to fill in those roles, and that is what made Hearthglen such a booming place for RP for so long. We got to change the world and be an active PART of that change, without having to resort to obnoxious custom lore. Characters could GROW and contribute, while still holding true to the overall Blizzard image.

That is what we need more of; indeed that is the whole basis of Cataclysm RP for the most part. The world IS changing, so let us be a PART of that change!
Your stories will always remain...
[Image: nIapRMV.png?1]
... as will your valiant hearts.
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#80
Thing that makes me wary about cataclysm conquest is that according to the quest-line, whatever side you're on is the winning side. We'd have to decide who won those battles and in the end it would make a lot of people sour that -their- faction's side lost. Example that comes to mind is the horde post in swamp of sorrows. If the alliance wins, the horde loses their outpost in that area and has no 'safe' spot [outside of neutral spots] to RP if they so choose. If the horde wins, it feels like nothing happens.

Edit: I'm all for RPing out the fact that there's conflict in the area. I'm just wary about making one side lose and denying that spot of RP to the losing faction.
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#81
Not entirely, Reigen. Most Alliance/Horde quests have "Minor" targets they destroy and win victory over- the only case I know of where a canon conflict arises is Swamp of Sorrows.
Your stories will always remain...
[Image: nIapRMV.png?1]
... as will your valiant hearts.
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#82
(10-05-2013, 09:45 PM)CappnRob Wrote: Not entirely, Reigen. Most Alliance/Horde quests have "Minor" targets they destroy and win victory over- the only case I know of where a canon conflict arises is Swamp of Sorrows.

There's quite a few, actually.

In Ashenvale, Horde bombs Astranaar to destruction, Alliance meanwhile manages to put out all the fires and save the town. There's also the Warsong Lumber Camp there, which is rather important and either completely destroyed or saved depending on which side you're on. In Desolace, the Horde PC manages to single-handedly level the town of Nigel's Point, using some ancient magic ritual. The Horde questline manages to destroy one of its own posts in Stonetalon, thanks to Kromgar. There's a couple others, but several relatively major posts get wrecked in the canon storylines.

That all said...

The lack of RP for a while can be attributed to a few different factors, depending. There's a lot of red herrings out there that are symptoms of problems rather than the root of the problem itself. But, from looking at things, a few of my own thoughts:

People, both players and GMs, are not being active in the generation of interesting RP. We have too many people who want others to entertain them with events without wanting to step up and do it themselves. That's not an attempt at judging others, some don't have the desire or time to run events constantly. Nonetheless, it's a bit silly when there are multiple people on GMI that want RP, but apparently won't RP with one another because no one wants to take initiative to start something.

One issue that aggravates this is the focus players on wanting to "change the world" in some sense, which -generally- means "I want to alter canon lore in some sense." Now, I've explained the "no conquest RP" rule before in other threads, but let me reiterate one particular point here because I think it's the most relevant: one of the biggest things we don't want to see is being in a situation where players have to read a small novel to understand the server's own lore. This is part of what differentiates ourselves from a place like Prologue, where the lore is so heavily altered that it is essentially no longer recognizable as Warcraft. So CotH is there to provide that welcoming stability. After all, it is logical that if someone is looking for a World of Warcraft RP server, then it is likely that they want to RP in the world of Warcraft.

Some people speak fondly of things like the Sin'sholai, the old Arathi Wars, etc. etc. But what I remember most is the large number of people who signed up for CotH, saw all of the strange changes to the lore, and then immediately turned and left. CotH should be easy to get into. Nonetheless, this is an issue that is lowering the numbers of events run, because players want to affect the world. I've seen plenty of excellent events that can be run without affecting canon lore areas, however, and most everything, even "conquest" to an extent, can be done using the custom areas we have.

On the other hand, we have another issue that is contributing and also conflicting with it. World of Warcraft has been seeing a steady decline of players recently, and it is only logical that we would get some decline as well. Interest in the Warcraft setting is waning, whether it be because of greener pastures elsewhere or the simple fatigue of being invested in a game that's been around for almost nine years old now, the setting itself being far older, almost nineteen years. Combined with the (being charitable here) mediocre lore quality of Warcraft in the first place, there's no real surprise that interest is now dropping.

Personally speaking, I've never found the Warcraft setting -that- compelling. I liked the idea of it more than the execution itself, and what I have invested in it has honestly been destroyed with the lore of Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria. So, my own inactivity stems from a complete lack of interest in the setting. MoP's lore killed all interest I had in actually RPing in WoW.

TL;DR: We're in a situation with two conflicting forces bearing down that's causing a drop of interest, both the desire to avoid being too different from Warcraft so as to not be unwelcoming, but also not being too similar because of the declining interest in Warcraft and the inappropriate lore of the setting. I'm personally stuck in that situation myself: I loathe the canon lore for WoW, but equally dislike the idea of completely rewriting it due to the fact we'd then we trying too much to be like Prologue. While I'm sad to say it, it's true: I am at the point where I would not be sad if CotH were to close its doors. Thankfully, that is not my decision, but Kretol's. But, I can't help but to think that one of CotH's biggest problems right now is the lack of RP interest by both of its administrators, and the general inactivity by the GMs in keeping events running regularly.
Have you hugged an orc today?
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#83
I don't want to write a big post, but there are two outcomes I don't want.

1) Changes to the lore that deviate from the already bountiful hoard of events we've got to utilise in Cataclysm
2) Spending 3-4 years in Cataclysm and switch to Mists of Pandaria with absolutely nothing changing in the world

I've written a thread about these 'zone storylines' and I think a sensible method of dealing with contradictory event chains is to just choose one. Balance it out so that the Horde and Alliance equally get 'favorable' outcomes.

In the event of settlement destruction, I think we should choose the more peaceful resolution - because settlements are hard enough to come by anyway.

Cataclysm's already got a linear story, with the zone storylines for the alliance/horde (and with some differences for specific races) running concurrently until the later levels, in which case it becomes a super-simple game of 'bash the raid boss'.

It's following the gameplay, not deviating from existing lore and providing players with consistent events that are actually relevant to the world - and also moving the world along to Mists of Pandaria, as aberrant as it might be.




Move him into the sun—
Gently its touch awoke him once,
At home, whispering of fields half-sown.
Always it woke him, even in France,
Until this morning and this snow.
If anything might rouse him now
The kind old sun will know.

Think how it wakes the seeds,—
Woke, once, the clays of a cold star.
Are limbs, so dear-achieved, are sides,
Full-nerved—still warm—too hard to stir?
Was it for this the clay grew tall?
—O what made fatuous sunbeams toil
To break earth’s sleep at all?
[Image: 62675bf4fd.jpg] [Image: 0e7357dcfe.jpg]
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#84
Honestly, with the sheer VOLUME of new things and stories to do in Cata, we don't really ever need custom server-exclusive lore. Really. Yeah, Blizzard drops the ball on a few issues (Stromgard...) but for the most part, there's new things to address all over the world!
Your stories will always remain...
[Image: nIapRMV.png?1]
... as will your valiant hearts.
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#85
It's always been possible to enact the main zone storylines provided the chain passes muster and the GMs are interested in assisting with it. Problem is, that just never happens due to lack of interest on the part of one party or the other.
Have you hugged an orc today?
- I am not tech support. Please do not contact me regarding technical issues. -
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#86
There's interest in it, I just think this is a situation where the GMs are scared the players don't care and the players are scared they're not allowed to take the initiative with this kind of thing. The reason I made that thread (aside from the reasons in the thread, of course) is to get a green-light, like an 'Okay, we're officially doing this' - which'd make people a little less reticent to try it.

I think the biggest problem though is the lack of clarity. Conquest RP is blanket-banned from the last posts I've seen about it, but we've got Solidarity Row, Northshire and all manner of events that have things being conquested, so people are reasonably confused.

If we came to a consensus where we said "We're going to do this, with these guidelines, and the administrators are okay with it" you'd see way more people picking up and broaching the gameplay storylines.
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#87
Again, I don't think anything RP wise will bring in a ton of people.
[Image: desc_head_freemasons.jpg]

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#88
There're two sides of the coin - retaining players and getting new ones. It's not about getting new players - we're a niche community, our players are usually referred by other players (when I joined back in 2009 it was because some guy brought up CotH in Moon Guard. Yeah).

What we can do, though, is figure out why people are leaving more than we're getting people, then try to fix it. Plus, having things more organised helps people out when they're making stuff.




Move him into the sun—
Gently its touch awoke him once,
At home, whispering of fields half-sown.
Always it woke him, even in France,
Until this morning and this snow.
If anything might rouse him now
The kind old sun will know.

Think how it wakes the seeds,—
Woke, once, the clays of a cold star.
Are limbs, so dear-achieved, are sides,
Full-nerved—still warm—too hard to stir?
Was it for this the clay grew tall?
—O what made fatuous sunbeams toil
To break earth’s sleep at all?
[Image: 62675bf4fd.jpg] [Image: 0e7357dcfe.jpg]
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#89
A poll, along with all the compromises, options, continuity etc on all the issues that has been dividing us so far would be very useful. Also allow for multiple answers.

Custom Lore?
-All out.
-Just touch the unfinished stories from the previous games/expansions.
-Touch major events with story progression according to how Blizz did it.
-Just our own personal character stories and use the custom RP areas.
-Flesh out. Beautify. Populate. Renovate existing areas for RP to make them more immersing for the players.
-None.
-Continue doing our thing.

GM Enforcement?
-All out.
-Be guiding but firm.
-Touch up other player's RP small suggestions.
-None.

And so on, and so forth.

Either way. Having people lose heart to actually log in is...really sad and I don't really want the server to go out, at all.

I agree though. What's the main problem is people leaving, and not much getting new people in. So there's gotta be a way to prevent people losing interest.
[Image: 2r3hym9.png]
Main Characters:
Riggs Ravenhook - Swarmy Old Goblin Thief and Corporate Nuisance
Gorudo Goldforge - Goldforge Clan Remnant and Ranger
Turic Carsten - Stormwind Regular

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#90
I would recommend easing up on the level restriction and encouraging players to head out into the World and team up for quests and stuff. That's what I did a lot on Moonguard and I found all sorts of fun people who enjoyed mixing their RP with questing.
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