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Lox Laments: Player Reports
#16
Well, we do occasionally leave notes. But, then again... What if the report has nothing we can act upon? That happens a lot, too. People take for granted that all of their reports are going to see some kind of consequence, which isn't true. So there is no way we can confirm when reports are being dealt with other than saying we've recorded the information (which should pretty much be obvious by us speaking to you about it in the first place) without discouraging people because we can't act on every single one of their reports.

Because we can't. Not all reports will lead to action, because it depends on what the GMs are able to see in the report or even what we gain out of speaking to the people involved after the report has been processed. Not all reports lead to action. Without any reports at all, don't expect anything to happen at all, on any end.
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#17
(09-11-2013, 02:25 PM)Harmonic Wrote: ---There's one thing I'll bring up too, that I've seen that bothers me, with Skype and other things.





If it happens outside of CoTH, CoTH shouldn't get involved. :\ That's my opinion, at least. This might be a completely separate point, but it's one that I feel I should bring up. I've stopped inviting certain people to Skype chats because... they try to police it, and that -really- bothers me.

I'd argue this to say that if someone is harassing someone to get onto Conquest of the Horde through a program or site where there's a COTH community, and in incredibly inappropriate ways, that's most definitely a time when logs from outside of COTH are necessary.
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#18
To take what Rini said a step further: Some people are perfect little angels when it comes to being on the server because they know how to avoid getting into trouble. Just because someone is harassing a member via skype/IM doesn't mean that we should just turn a blind eye to it, because then the other player suffers every time their tormentor logs onto the server. If one member is being horribly rude to another, then yeah, it's our problem. If that makes people think twice about what they say to another member over skype, then I'd say that's a victory.

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#19
I think he meant more in skype group chats and people start swearing and the such. Harassment isn't something to simply let go and I think that you should report that. But other things like swearing and things that would normally go against server rules, but aren't crossing to harassment.

Anyone understand what I said there? I'm not entirely sure I do, but I think I got my point across.
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#20
Well, those are rarely really enforced unless in the Official CotH Skype Group. ... And even there, we let people get away with some foul language.


... But that is besides the point of this thread. Only two/three answers have actually been given to my initial question.
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#21
You have a couple of initial questions.

But they were good answers. A sub forum made to put in reports. It would make it easier by far. You wish to know why people don't report go with the survey. Those two answers work very well. I don't know what kind of answer you're looking for, but a couple good ideas have been given.

I mean, you can perhaps tell people (As I said before) that it was looked at after it was. You get the reports, but nothing is said on when you read them. You yourself said that it takes time for the GM team to look at reports as it is, so why not give the person who sent it in a poke and say. "We looked at the report." You don't have to say what has been done or if anything has been done. It would give me personal satisfaction to know that it was looked at extensively and handled because of it, regardless on if action was taken or not.
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#22
I think I'll stick my head in here for a minute because this is something that I've seen myself, though to a limited degree, and not aimed at me, nor was I involved in it.

One of the problems here is one that was mentioned in the OP, and that was that the community can be, for lack of a better term, "mean". I don't mean publicly (or privately) cussing someone out...I mean a rather subtle, only-a-few-words/phrases-here-and-there kind of thing. @DoctorDaveMD just left a post a couple'a days ago about him leaving, and to quote it...

Quote:The passive-aggressive attitudes I've been getting from people I don't even know has been getting on my nerves for the past two weeks and I've had it. More so because of the fact none of them want to actually come out and say it to my e-face as they proceed to go to people and ****-talk me behind my back.

Now, here's a question: if there's only a few, here-and-there things going on that are rather subtle, and difficult to show in logs...how would one go about reporting it? For instance, at my new job, we watched a very, VERY in-depth movie about sexual harassment (they take it super-seriously), and one thing to mention was this, which I have quoted from here (they cite it from the EEOC, which is the actual legal text):

Quote:Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitute sexual harassment when

1. submission to such conduct is made either explicitly or implicitly a term or condition of an individual's employment,
2. submission to or rejection of such conduct by an individual is used as the basis for employment decisions affecting such individuals, or
3. such conduct has the purpose or effect of unreasonably interfering with an individual's work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment. (29 C.F.R. § 1604.11 [1980])

That last stipulation is the one I wanted to focus on. Bear in mind, this particular definition has the word unwelcome in it, but most (if not all) employers extend their own policies to say any sexual advances, etc., because it's so easy to misconstrue something, or for it to be taken the wrong way, or even for some third party (an onlooker/witness) to take offense. (Bear in mind, if a couple people are telling crude jokes, someone who overhears them -can- file for sexual harassment.) I point this out because it's a good analogy for indicating that even the law make allowances for a "general feeling" gotten from a group or individual (again, the "hostile or offensive work environment" quote). However, the filing process is long, difficult, and expensive, so they try to work things out beforehand, just like the GM team, with verbal warnings first, then more serious reprimandations afterwards.

There's a difference here, however. Where with speech we get through many subjects in the span of a few minutes, typing out that same conversation would take hours. Therefor, day-to-day, we aren't exposed to as much...and it therefor might have a higher impact, due to limited interaction, speaking generally. Where in going to my supervisor, I'd be able to say that <name> said this, this, this, and that, and it all felt derogatory; going to a GM, I'd have much less to show, due to less word-for-word interaction (or even conversation-to-conversation).

So a question is due. Is the GM team willing to take the issue mention in the OP:

Loxmardin Wrote:In short, I see people mentioning that the community has been unfriendly, that they have issues with certain groups, [and] attitudes go unchecked....

and use the relatively limited information that will be made available, even with things like elephant? If yes, then I would, personally, encourage anyone to keep a stash of logs from here on out (if they haven't already) about every single conversation or interaction with someone they feel is being unfriendly, or even passively-aggressively hostile. I would recommend showing the GM's anything relevant to the context of the piece of conversation in said report, and be specific about what is being said where that makes them feel like that. That way, the GM's have solid evidence to work with, and if they don't feel like the report is enough to warrant any action, adding on more logs and proof to it might then be enough, given time.

So again, is the GM team willing to add this issue to their already-high-level of responsibilities, in this, or a similar way?
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#23
(09-11-2013, 04:08 PM)Memnoch Wrote: ...I would, personally, encourage anyone to keep a stash of logs from here on out (if they haven't already) about every single conversation or interaction with someone they feel is being unfriendly, or even passively-aggressively hostile. I would recommend showing the GM's anything relevant to the context of the piece of conversation in said report, and be specific about what is being said where that makes them feel like that. That way, the GM's have solid evidence to work with, and if they don't feel like the report is enough to warrant any action, adding on more logs and proof to it might then be enough, given time.

Now, while I do feel that what goes on in CotHspace should be ultimately under the jurisdiction of the mods here, in situations like this with "lesser" degrees of hostility, there should always be a calm, non-antagonizing confrontation between the involved individuals. A GM having to resort to moderation due to several chat logs sent to them from various sources that, on their own, wouldn't result in GM action... Well, that would feel kinda conspiratorial. Oftentimes, especially through the distant medium of text, one has no idea that they're upsetting another, so someone should have a chance to correct a particularly dour attitude.

It is also important to look at the GMs as people who moderate rather than punish in situations like this; if one feels like they can't directly address their concerns with another player without fearing its escalation, one should be comfortable enough to ask for a GM to mediate the situation.

If you don't feel comfortable enough with the GM team to reach out to them as a way of prevent punishment being needed, you need to explain why, and/or how you can feel we can fix this.
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#24
Quote:It is also important to look at the GMs as people who moderate rather than punish in situations like this;

Probably the best explanation I can give for how we act. We moderate and we try to privately solve problems before having them escalate. We do take care of things behind the scene, we do approach people who are being reported and tell them what's going on and how they can improve.

If we just instantly banned people, the community would be super small.

I don't expect you to think we're doing our job. And I know you have only our word that we're doing our job. That's just the situation. We're not going to reveal every little thing we do because we do what we can to operate successfully while respecting the privacy of the players.
Quote:[8:53AM] Cassius: Xigo is the best guy ever. he doesn't afraid of anything.
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#25
(09-11-2013, 03:06 PM)Kage Wrote: I think he meant more in skype group chats and people start swearing and the such. Harassment isn't something to simply let go and I think that you should report that. But other things like swearing and things that would normally go against server rules, but aren't crossing to harassment.

Anyone understand what I said there? I'm not entirely sure I do, but I think I got my point across.

That is -exactly- what I meant.

I've seen too many people police my chats with saying "We don't use that language here or say that word". That drives me NUTS.

Edit: And it happened multiple times in my Grey Militia chat.
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#26
Just give 'em a poke and say 'This is not a coth-sponsored chat. People can speak however they wish here.'. Or state that when inviting someone to a chat [as well as to warn them if they have an issue with, say, language they might not want to join. Some are sensitive to that]. I know my language is a lot more lax in non-coth chats. Very lax.

NC-17 Lax.

A lot of people assume guild chats are 'coth sponsored', so that might sometimes need to be noted that it's not.
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#27
(09-11-2013, 06:14 PM)Xigo Wrote: I don't expect you to think we're doing our job. And I know you have only our word that we're doing our job. That's just the situation. We're not going to reveal every little thing we do because we do what we can to operate successfully while respecting the privacy of the players.

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#28
@Memnoch:

If people actually report things that make them feel uncomfortable, then we'll act on them just like any other report. Even if that just means us looking at the report from an objective standpoint and trying to reassure the reporting player that it might not be quite as bad as it looks. Because we try to do that sometimes, too. :P
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#29
@Loxmardin: Oh, I'm not saying that you aren't! If that's how it came off, then I typed so mistakenly, and I apologize! What I meant, in paraphrase and summary, is that sometimes it isn't a case where one Elephant log session is enough. Meaning that it's more a case of, "Hey, I'm getting a feeling of hostility from <player>, and I feel very uncomfortable talking to them directly. Can you help?" I merely mentioned the sexual harassment thing because when you knock off the sexual part, it's perfect for exactly what's left; harassment. A general uncomfortable feeling isn't something easily backed up with logs, so I was just kind of covering all bases.

Xigo Wrote:Probably the best explanation I can give for how we act. We moderate and we try to privately solve problems before having them escalate. We do take care of things behind the scene, we do approach people who are being reported and tell them what's going on and how they can improve.

If we just instantly banned people, the community would be super small.

Nor am I suggesting that you should :) I agree, moderators are just that, moderators, not punishers or ban police. I agree completely that it's the best way to handle things, behind the scenes. I don't need to know if, say @Harmonic has a problem with @Brutalskars and that the issue has been resolved, it's not my business. On top of that, let's be honest, if the GM team felt like they had to publicly announce that something's been dealt with, they would appear to either be a bunch of buttholes, or that they're insecure in their positions, or that they're incompetent...none of which I feel like any of them are.

As far as to answer the question of how to make things easier, why not set up a forum like PD, where only the GM team can see it. You go in, and there's a template to fill out, just like with our profiles. You fill in the person(s) that it's pertaining to, what happened, when, and a spoiler'd section where one could attach any relevant logs, if applicable. If I where to just come up with something on the spot, it'd look something like:

Spoiler:
Code:
[b]Your Username:[/b]

[b]Username(s) of whom you are reporting:[/b]

[b]Date of incident (incl. time, even a rough estimate):[/b]

[b]Very quick summary of the incident (<50~ words):[/b]

[b]In-depth explanation of incident:[/b]

[b]Please post any relevant logs here:[/b][spoiler]<LOGS>[/spoiler]

[b]What are your thoughts on how this could be handled?:[/b]

With this, you'd even get a "snapshot" overview of what happened. In the post the describes how to fill the form out, mention that the quick summary should be...well...quick, and that the "What are your thoughts" section isn't a place where one can ramble on about "THEY SHOULD BE BANNED!!1! DX<", but a place where they should calmly, rationally think out a strategy to tackle the situation. Not to tell the GM's that "You should do this", more a place where the involved party's insight could be taken into account? I dunno.

[/rant]
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#30
Personally, I did not read all of the text in this conversation so far as most of it makes me think of things I wish to avoid saying. When it comes down to it, there is already a set way to report with much ease. It is not a complicated situation which requires a ton of extra hand holding to get done. You can send in the report via in-game means for in-game problems and use the forums for situations that might arise outside of gamespace. So long as you feel they are Coth-related. There is the Private Message route, the Private discussion forum, which if I understand only GMs can see your threads. Yes, maybe the format pointed out in a spoiler above would be pretty much the only addition I could see needing added.

As for all the skype things I kept reading, that's on you guys. It's not hard to remove yourself from any situation which makes you feel uncomfortable in virtual reality. There are ignore commands and you can always remove yourself from a conversation in skype. Then if you feel you must absolutely talk to certain people there is no shame in just doing a 1 on 1 conversation with your friends or creating a conversation without the offenders.

As far as guildchats go I always assume that whomever the leader/leaders of the guild have final say for what occurs within the chat. Don't like it? Leave the guild.

I feel I may have come across as blunt or harsh but this is a cut and dry situation that I feel shouldn't require any extra nonsense. I'll probably get flak for being the one to come out and say it. It is the internet folks, grow a spine and ignore things. Most of us are adults and should act accordingly. We are becoming too sensitive as a population as a whole when it comes to the internet. I feel like going down this road only adds to that over-sensitivity that is growing. Hell, I get reported in a ton of online games now a days for trash talking but it's not like I actually know or hate any of the people I'm talking to. Half the time what I say isn't even harsh but something along the lines of, "I win you lose!" but they report anyway because that's how people are. I should probably stop here before I go to far on a tangent and end up somewhere I don't need to be.
Wow. Sometimes I forget the past.
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