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Mages & Earth Magic
#16
Maybe the actual workings of magic will require a completely new discussion.

The main point of this post was 'Water and Lightning are part of a Mage's arsenal but not Earth and Air'.
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#17
(11-28-2011, 10:43 AM)BountyHunter Wrote: Maybe the actual workings of magic will require a completely new discussion.

The main point of this post was 'Water and Lightning are part of a Mage's arsenal but not Earth and Air'.

Conjure rocks(Imagine every Frost ability, only with rocks instead of ice). Or move a mass of air with telekinesis. Same way you Slow Fall.
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#18
Essentially my proposition was that he merely uses waves of arcane force to move sand and rock, and conjures stone from other locations.

edit: So ostensibly if I wish to play this type of arcane user, would require a profile/special profile to be used in-game?
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#19
We do not wish for mages to be capable of using Earth and Air magic.

Moving sand and rocks via waves of arcane magic would probably be a very erratic and useless manner of moving it. Imagine having a pile of sand and trying to move it from one place to another by blowing on it.
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#20
I meant it like... The arcane is used essentially like a shovel to scoop the sand and fling it about. The rocks are lifted with arcane in the same manner, probably a bubble of force lifting it and shooting it.

And just out of curiosity, why do you not wish for mages to be capable of using Earth and Air magic?
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#21
(11-28-2011, 11:06 AM)BountyHunter Wrote: We do not wish for mages to be capable of using Earth and Air magic.

Moving sand and rocks via waves of arcane magic would probably be a very erratic and useless manner of moving it. Imagine having a pile of sand and trying to move it from one place to another by blowing on it.

So, we can conjure complex things like fine pastries and even strudels and full meals with bottles and cutlery, and yet we can't conjure mere rocks in exactly the same way we conjure slabs of ice? In my personal opinion, that sounds pretty silly.

But since we can conjure bottles, and bottles are made of glass, and glass comes from sand, then we can conjure sand(Heck, you could say it's Enchanting dust). And since we can conjure the odd plate and/or cutlery, then we can safely conjure porcelain or metal.

Pottery mage. He teacups things to death.
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#22
When reading my quote, keep in mind that that's just a comment I made in the discussion. I don't particularly have anything at stake in this, so I was just tossing out an opinion at the time.

That said, I know the situation is a bit more murky than that. If Mages manipulate forms of energy, can they not simply use kinetic energy to lift up a rock and toss it at someone? It's possible in theory.

I think this is less "Is it possible for mages to do this?" and more "At what point does a mage start muscling in too much on the territory of shamans?" I already think that battle-mages are practically an excuse to roll an enhancement shaman without having to be one of the shaman races, soon shaman won't have anything unique at all. Yeah, it's magic and we don't need to think on it too hard, but we can't have mages capable of doing everything. Where's the fun in that, after all?

Edit: Quick note, I always assumed that the "conjure" spells were actual conjurations...summoning things to you, rather than creating them out of thin air. Though, this does leave the fridge logic of where these things are coming from. It leaves the humorous idea of another plane of existence made entirely of clean water and baked goods.
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#23
Mages being capable of doing everything is kind of the point of being a mage. Arcane untamed crossing all barriers and whatnot.

If mages can enchant an entire island with eternal spring, this enchantment last nine thousand years and an invasion, why can't they do anything?

Now, I understand not being able to do anything to the letter, but what's the actual harm of lifting and flinging about rocks if they can, in theory, do much worse? Like conjuring a rain of ice, or even a sword directly above someone's head?


As for crossing the barrier of shamans, well.
Mages being similar to shamans never stopped me from playing one. I'd sooner play a class over their background rather than their skillset.

Seems somewhat silly to limit a class so another will be played more, unless I've gotten this wrong.
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#24
Since I don't know squat about mages, I think I'll just offer the definitions of conjure and summon, since there seems to be some contention and confusion about that.

con·jure
[kon-jer, kuhn- for 1–5, 8–10, 12; kuhn-joor for 6, 7, 11]
verb, -jured, -jur·ing, noun
verb (used with object)
1.to affect or influence by or as if by invocation or spell.
2.to effect, produce, bring, etc., by or as by magic: to conjure a miracle.
3.to call upon or command (a devil or spirit) by invocation or spell.
4.to call or bring into existence by or as if by magic (usually followed by up): She seemed to have conjured up the person she was talking about.
5.to bring to mind; recall (usually followed by up ): to conjure up the past.

sum·mon
[suhm-uhn]
verb (used with object)
1.to call upon to do something specified.
2.to call for the presence of, as by command, message, or signal; call.
3.to call or notify to appear at a specified place, especially before a court: to summon a defendant.
4.to authorize or order a gathering of; call together by authority, as for deliberation or action: to summon parliament.
5.to call into action; rouse; call forth (often. followed by up ): to summon all one's courage.
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#25
(11-28-2011, 11:39 AM)Uthaniel Wrote: Mages being capable of doing everything is kind of the point of being a mage. Arcane untamed crossing all barriers and whatnot.

That's arguable. To me, the point of being a mage is the use of a particular form of magic. Mages are the researchers and "scientists" of magic, that's generally their flavor.

That said, we can't just let the arcane do anything. Do you want mages able to cast holy magic? Nature magic? Do you want them able to heal? To mind control someone? To allow them to shapeshift? Obviously some limitations need to be put into place.

This argument could also be used for *any* caster. Let's use Priest as an example. Priests use their faith, willpower, and the power of their minds to manipulate reality. So, why can't they will someone on fire? Or will them to freeze? Or will themselves into the form of an animal? The argument that "they can because they have magic" could be used to let them do anything, but that doesn't mean that it should.

Also, this wasn't decided to encourage people to roll a particular class, I'm rather certain, at least no more than it's in our best interests to keep the classes at least somewhat distinct.
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#26
Let me put it how I explained it to Hawk.
Quote:They're an entirely different concept.

[12:15:41 PM] Aphetoros: Philosophy, RP style, religion, ability, -race-.
[12:15:54 PM] Aphetoros: Society, culture, magic.
[12:16:01 PM] Aphetoros: I'm a warlock, I can throw balls of fire.
[12:16:03 PM] Aphetoros: Fire mages are now useless.
[12:16:06 PM] Aphetoros: I'm a priest, I can heal.
[12:16:10 PM] Aphetoros: Holy paladins are now useless.
[12:16:19 PM] Aphetoros: Frost DK.
[12:16:22 PM] Aphetoros: Frost mages are now useless
[12:16:30 PM] Aphetoros: Paladins.
[12:16:32 PM] Aphetoros: Warriors are now useless.
[12:16:38 PM] Aphetoros: Druids.
[12:16:47 PM | Edited 12:17:29 PM] Aphetoros: Everything is now useless because I can be a mage, warrior, healer, melee DPS, tank...

In my opinion, the thought that something becoming obsolete because another class can do something similar in a different way is flustering. I'll take your battlemage/shaman thought, for a moment. A battlemage is entirely different than an enhancement shaman. Enhancement shaman focus on buffing, battling, and fighting with the spirits at their side. A battlemage merely uses magic to aid his combat.

Shamans live according to a specific religion and philosophy-- it's a way of life. A battlemage could care less about his ancestors, he's just using arcane in his battling. If you look at how the game is already? Enhancement shaman already don't have anything unique. MoP is removing instant ghost wolf and shamanistic rage, so all we have is our crappy wolves that only do about the damage of a single lava lash. No iconic abilities for them. Riptide for restoration shaman, Earthquake for elemental shaman. Even if they lose their unique abilities and spells because other classes can do similar things (not even the exact same, mind you. A geomancer in the way I've described won't be making an earthquake anytime soon.) There's the culture, the race, the class's archetype that's entirely different. The way they live, think, feel, and act.

An elementalist could care less if the earth objects to what it's trying to do.
A shaman will try to bargain with the earth, and if no deal can be reached then the shaman will accept that.

An elementalist is gaining power based on arcane strength and forcefulness.
A shaman is asking politely and nicely for the elements to aid them.

I feel like I'm repeating myself too much, but TL;DR: Just because two classes can do the same thing doesn't mean one class is obsolete. (e.g. Paladins can fight and heal and use magical fighting abilities. So are warriors obsolete? No! They're different IC playstyles and character archetypes)
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#27
Fun things about mages and holy magic. The high elves had mage-priests, and the leylines have some divine qualities. That's shown in the glyphs priests use. Leywalkers can also heal, unless that's forbidden here. And archmages can shapeshift. Or one could, anyway.

The gray lines between classes honestly doesn't disturb me. Oh, well.
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#28
(11-28-2011, 11:33 AM)Grakor456 Wrote: Edit: Quick note, I always assumed that the "conjure" spells were actual conjurations...summoning things to you, rather than creating them out of thin air. Though, this does leave the fridge logic of where these things are coming from. It leaves the humorous idea of another plane of existence made entirely of clean water and baked goods.
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Try to never just say, "My character isn't interested in that adventure." A lot of people mistake this for good roleplaying, because you are asserting your character's personality. Wrong. Good roleplaying should never bring the game to a screeching halt. One of your jobs as a player is to come up with a reason why your character would be interested in a plot. After all, your personality is entirely in your hands, not the DM's. Come up with a reason why the adventure (or the reward) might appeal to you, no matter how esoteric or roundabout the reasoning. -(Source)
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#29
Quote:"At what point does a mage start muscling in too much on the territory of shamans?" I already think that battle-mages are practically an excuse to roll an enhancement shaman without having to be one of the shaman races, soon shaman won't have anything unique at all. Yeah, it's magic and we don't need to think on it too hard, but we can't have mages capable of doing everything. Where's the fun in that, after all?

This. Seriously, Mages already do stupid amounts of things.

Let the Shaman be Shaman, dammit.

EDIT: Kret. That picture is epic.
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#30
Those poor orcs :c
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