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Mages & Earth Magic
#61
On the topic of warlocks and most mages focusing on arcane/frost, the lore-reason is most fire mages (prior to WoW anyway) were often mistaken for warlocks because their brazen flames were thought to be hellish in nature. Ergo, most mages focused on arcane and ice to avoid such accusations.

And then the Blood Mages came and went SCREW THAT and fully endorsed the "fire magic so terrifying it makes you look like Hell itself on legs" because lolBloodElvesaresomad.
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#62
I wanted to make a guide (of my view) of he arcane for a while. After seeing this discussion, maybe I will.

I have always been under the assumption that a mage can do two things:
1: Form Arcane energy into things.
2: Transport/teleport/summon things.

When a mage attacks or defends with...say a fire spell he turns his mana(read the arcane) into fire. This fire is not natural fire but arcane fire, and cannot by put out by normal means and only dowses when it runs out of energy (the arcane put into that spell) Shaman can't summon natural fire in thin air because then the fire would not have fuel to burn. Shamans -can- because the elements are granting their powers and fuel the fire in a divine way.

Seeing things this way, a mage could turn his mana into -anything- heck he could bombard his opponent with exploding sheep. There's however one limitation: Difficulty of said manipulation of the arcane. That's the reason mages use the elements because they are the simplest things available.
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#63
I understand trying to define the classes. I also agree that we -could- just define mages as arcane/ice/fire that would suck. You guys aren't doing that, that's cool so point definitely made. Because with magic you can kind of almost do anything or something similar. Because magic/imagination seem to have same boundaries. The following questions are genuine questions so please no "lolpharaoh UNUB!"


1: I understand conjuration and manipulation. But I'm confused. A mage can conjure fire, from nothing using arcane as the source. Or maybe it's arcane that burns like fire and looks like fire. Synthetic. I dunno. Point is, thats how they get fire. Now Manipulation seems like. I can take the flame from the torch and hover it above my hand. Then stretch it to a cylinder. But that person can't bring fire from nothing, they have to have fire there already present to do anything to it. If I'm wrong correct me. But I also heard that for lack of a better term Shaman couldn't 'Bend' like Waterbend/firebend/earthbend/airbend. Can they? or not to that extent?

2: Brings me to my next question. Never leveled a Shaman, I'd like to they seem awesome but...I dunno. I understand the totems but would a Shaman ICly carry them all the time? Summon them? or could they rise from the ground or something? What Can Shaman do? Besides wtf ghost wolf is? If they cant element bend? what can they do that's different than a mage besides the fact they have to ask an elemental to do it?

3: Also could a mage substitute for a desired effect? Is it possible to for lack of a better term, force blast an opponent with invisible pressure. Does arcane always have a visible hue? Similar to a strong gust of wind? Or could they condense arcane to the density of rock even though it was bright green or blue lol or w/e?

I am neutral in this, I pretty much agreed with the OP. It just made me realize how ignorant I was to Shaman abilities, curious if someone could shoot me a couple answers while the rest debate amongst themselves.

Edit: I don't mean -WE- can do anything, just that usually in fantasy themes the unknown or bizarre are usually justified by. "Its magic."
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#64
I'LL HANDLE THE SHAMAN STUFF VIA PM.
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#65
I just want to take a moment to say...

...I effing hate magic. So much. For this exact reason.
"I am more afraid of one hundred sheep led by a lion than one hundred lions led by a sheep."
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#66
* Tilts the keyboard to Hawk. * Care to elaborate sir?
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#67
(11-28-2011, 04:24 PM)ThePharaoh Wrote: I understand trying to define the classes. I also agree that we -could- just define mages as arcane/ice/fire that would suck. You guys aren't doing that, that's cool so point definitely made. Because with magic you can kind of almost do anything or something similar. Because magic/imagination seem to have same boundaries. The following questions are genuine questions so please no "lolpharaoh UNUB!"


1: I understand conjuration and manipulation. But I'm confused. A mage can conjure fire, from nothing using arcane as the source. Or maybe it's arcane that burns like fire and looks like fire. Synthetic. I dunno. Point is, thats how they get fire. Now Manipulation seems like. I can take the flame from the torch and hover it above my hand. Then stretch it to a cylinder. But that person can't bring fire from nothing, they have to have fire there already present to do anything to it. If I'm wrong correct me. But I also heard that for lack of a better term Shaman couldn't 'Bend' like Waterbend/firebend/earthbend/airbend. Can they? or not to that extent?

2: Brings me to my next question. Never leveled a Shaman, I'd like to they seem awesome but...I dunno. I understand the totems but would a Shaman ICly carry them all the time? Summon them? or could they rise from the ground or something? What Can Shaman do? Besides wtf ghost wolf is? If they cant element bend? what can they do that's different than a mage besides the fact they have to ask an elemental to do it?

3: Also could a mage substitute for a desired effect? Is it possible to for lack of a better term, force blast an opponent with invisible pressure. Does arcane always have a visible hue? Similar to a strong gust of wind? Or could they condense arcane to the density of rock even though it was bright green or blue lol or w/e?

I am neutral in this, I pretty much agreed with the OP. It just made me realize how ignorant I was to Shaman abilities, curious if someone could shoot me a couple answers while the rest debate amongst themselves.

See what I typed here:

Quote:Mages can use their magic defensively, sure. But again, you have not addressed the issue of domestic application of being a shaman VS a mage. I've already said that shamans are practically like Jedi, and live in such harmony with the spirits and elements that they essentially use them as a third limb. Being a shaman comes with a hefty responsibility and dedication to the elements. Since this is more than just about "fight RP", then this stuff should carry some significant weight, especially because this is where RP shines. If we were discussing gameplay mechanics, then yeah I wouldn't let mages do shaman stuff because that'd unbalance the game, but this is about RP and application of theories in our RP, not balancing gameplay. Totally useless domestic stuff like communing with spirits can come into play here.

And it is to that end where I say mages aren't taking as much away from shamans as you think. Ok, yeah, let's say they can fight with fire/water/earth/lightning/air/your mom, just for the sake of the argument. To keep it simple, let's just say a mage can use any of those elements in anyway feasible by his imagination, be it earthquakes or snowstorms or whatever.

We have a pretty powerful, destructive force of nature here. But, now let's see what shamans can do.

Shamans can manipulate the living energies of the earth to heal others. This is more than just stuff like "healing wave", but also consider stuff like Everliving Weapon and Earth Shield, using the forces of earth to heal others on the most primal level. There is also the use of water, as well, using the two most common components of carbon based lifeforms to make them recover (water and dirt, basically).

Shamans commune with fire to increase their abilities and sensations as well. To get into borderline Avatar: The Last Airbender territory here, a shaman can use an almost inner-fire like ability to improve their meditation and mental focus (ie Flametongue Weapon, Totem of Wrath, whatever). Fire improves their reflexes and makes them more sharp minded (there are totems that give haste rating for DoTs caused by flame shock). It goes so much deeper and more respectful than a mage's "use fire to burn faces".

And these are just things I conceived off the top of my head using arbitrary in game mechanics as examples. Mages might have the breadth of controlling and defying every physical law of the natural world, but shamans have an unforseen depth and understanding of the natural world that comes with their super-special-awesome spirit ties.

And that is why Madugo is a shaman and not a mage :D
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#68
I must say...
What...
The...
Heck...

Honestly, who honestly cares if a mage is using geomancy instead of freaking fire. It is not going to ruin all your RP, for peat's sake. I am sorry but I highly doubt the use of acid, or rocks, or even pushing things with arcane energy is really going to ruin RP.
If we are going to be perma-bound by class restrictions, well, Hunters say goodbye to melee in Mists of Pandaria.

Classes and Variants should be done for RP's sake if you are on an RP server. It is not really changing the world that badly, you are in a game world, a "heroic fantasy high-magic setting". Honestly, I don't believe that it is going to warp the RP into a different dimension or something.

If someone is going to play a reasonable variant, an arcane geomancer, an acid mage, a fire necromancer, perhaps a slightly arcane warrior (Spell breaker anyone?) Is it going to destroy RP if we have almost everyone all on the same power level anyway and fights are settled between players anyhow?

Last I checked, when I tried making an acid mage ages back, I never acted any more powerful than another mage, it was just flavor, not like I was asking to rule the world. I wanted to play a variant mage that used acid, oh woopedy doop, I was not insta melting people, I was playing fair and by the basics of trust/roll combat.

I do not know why we are so adamant on killing variation on the mage that has been presented to exist, if the variation is not that big of a deal.
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#69
Isn't the point of the variant system to be able to make VARIANTS of existing classes, anyway? Along with that, within Arcane, there are spell descriptors for every single type of elemental attack.
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#70
Here is every reason I could find in this thread.

(11-28-2011, 11:06 AM)BountyHunter Wrote: We do not wish for mages to be capable of using Earth and Air magic.
Self-explanatory, without any reason.
(11-28-2011, 02:48 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: Because manipulating the elements is the domain of shaman, and the primary component of their skill-set.
Stepping on shaman's feet, which has already been replied to.


Quote:However, ignoring that, the other major flaw in your argument is that you're talking about combat in the first place, which is only half of the issue.
Misunderstanding. I merely used combat as an example.

(11-28-2011, 12:04 PM)Hawk Wrote:
Quote:"At what point does a mage start muscling in too much on the territory of shamans?" I already think that battle-mages are practically an excuse to roll an enhancement shaman without having to be one of the shaman races, soon shaman won't have anything unique at all. Yeah, it's magic and we don't need to think on it too hard, but we can't have mages capable of doing everything. Where's the fun in that, after all?
Already replied to. That makes absolutely no sense from an in-character standpoint because looking at it OOCly for pure OOC reasons the only thing you'd pick your race for would be it's appearance. But ICly, like I've said, the race's culture, the class's philosophy. A shaman =/= mage, even if they can do the same things.

Quote:Seriously, Mages already do stupid amounts of things.

Let the Shaman be Shaman, dammit.

EDIT: Kret. That picture is epic.
The picture was epic, yes, and shaman can be shaman. Because mages are different even with similar abilities. A mage can throw spikes and balls of stone at you, but a shaman can ask the elements to summon forth a beautiful statue of respect and glory, whereas a mage won't be able to do that nearly as easily.



[quote='Kenshiro' pid='217430' dateline='1322519674']
I think what's trying to be said is that there must be a line drawn somewhere. If a mage can conjure fire, he should be able to conjure [insert here]. Which brings to the point of the elements and how it is treading on shaman turf. But, we all know, if a mage can do everything a shaman can do without the shaman background, why play a shaman, when you can be (almost) any race and still be a badass mage-shaman?
Difference in philosophy, mindset, culture, ideology, etc.
(11-28-2011, 02:48 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: And really, your arguments are just supporting the argument that we *shouldn't* have given mages anything, not that we should give them even more.

Misunderstanding of my words.

(11-28-2011, 03:15 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: Same difference, you're trying to make the arcane do something that the GM team stated that they don't want to see happen. Your argument is just pointing out how there's already *too much* overlap between mage and shaman, that's not convincing anyone that there should be more when that's clearly the opposite of what's desired.


The classes do the same things. But they go about them in different ways. And just as a shaman can't throw arcane blasts and make portals, a mage can't talk to the spirits, their ancestors, and their other utility spells.

quick edit: From skype.
Quote:"Air and Earth, though? That's kind of stepping on the Shaman's toes, in my opinion, and is dealing with the manipulation of matter, as opposed to energy."

"If we can find lore evidence of aero/geomancers, then I'm up for it as variant classes (I would recommend a special profile). Still, I would just wonder... if players wanted to play with the elements, why not just roll a shaman?"

In short... there's not really been any evidence of Mages being able to "simulate" Earth energy. There is evidence of Hydromancers and the like, and even use of "lightning", but no evidence of Mages being able to "create" Earth. And as previously mentioned... we just simply don't like the idea of it and would rather this kind of thing left to Mages.

Quote:[12:08:54 PM] Aphetoros: My geomancer now merely uses arcane force to lift sand and rocks, or transport them from another location.
[12:08:55 PM] Aphetoros: Acceptable?
[12:12:31 PM] --: I... don't think so. I mean, they'd have to concentrate on lifting every single tiny grain of sand.

That, and we just don't want mages using Earth magic. We're leaving this to Shaman.
[12:13:34 PM] Aphetoros: Actually, though! He wouldn't need to! He just has to place a sheet of energy beneath the 'group'/amount of sand he wants to use, and then flick it upwards to hurl it.
[12:14:21 PM] --: The GM team still agreed on not letting Mages use Earth magic, though.
[12:14:29 PM] Aphetoros: But it's not Earth Magic.
[12:14:38 PM] Aphetoros: It's arcane magic being used to simulate Earth Magic.
[12:14:44 PM] --: You know what I mean. /bonk
[12:14:58 PM] Aphetoros: But why would he not be able to do this?
[12:15:06 PM] --: Because then Shaman will be worthless.

Not going to post who it is without his permission.

edit:

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=39621#starts
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=47619#screenshots:id=186965
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=18420
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=5862
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=45381
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#71
I suggest reading up upon what "geomancy" is from WoWwiki. It really has nothing to do with mages, aside from there being a school of arcane involved; i.e., nature.

Geomancy, in essence, is a shamanistic tradition. "Geomancy believes that the land is a reflection of the spirit, but the spirit is also a reflection of the land. It is in this belief system that geomancers strive to reform the land to appease both their spirits and the earth's." -WoWwiki

Furthermore, it seems that geomancers only perform their manipulations through "devotion dances and rune-making [so as] to impress the elements as a whole," whereas Shamans (as we've noted above) commune with spirits.

As such, it seems absurd that a mage would be interested in attempting geomancy. Of course, this doesn't mean that a mage may be against using their terrain to their advantage (example: searing the plant-covered ground to cover something up in smoke or smashing the ground to bits with bolts of arcane energy), but never in the sense of manipulating the earth itself.

Look specifically at the races of the geomancers taken above. Aside from the Sunseeker, geomancers are primarily of "shamanic-like" races such as Night Elves and Tauren. While there may be a "mage-like-quality" to their use of magic (that a geomancer may choose to manipulate the spirits rather than commune with them, as they possess "the ability to manipulate the spirits of nature"), such magic is rightfully off limits to mages of all kinds. The earth is simply not something that can be created by mages, whereas forms of energy (such as fire or its counterpart of ice, which is really just the lack of energy) are not. So it is, so it should be.

One must also question why a mage would be interested in attempting to directly control the earth by dealing with spirits and the like. As geomancy lore explains that geomancy can only happen through dealing with spirits (whether benevolently or manevolently, it seems, is up to the choice of the geomancer), it is not hard to imagine that a typical mage wouldn't have the patience, experience, drive, or capacity to even comprehend the concept of "spirits" on a level that would be necessary for geomancy (or other shamanic practices).

The page I referenced: http://www.wowpedia.org/Geomancer

In sum geomancy is simply not in the spirit of the mage class, nor is the practice itself possible through the typical workings of the mage (imagine a mage dancing to cast a spell-- how silly). It is thusly more of a variant of shamanism than any directly arcane method.
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#72
As I mentioned earlier, I'm trying to make this not that. Heh ^.^;;

I just happened to refer to it as geomancer out of ease, though I can not if it's easier. (Just like Pyromancers are mages that use fire, necromancers that use death &c)
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#73
Even the variant of "Elementalist," as you've pointed out, Aphetoros, seems to be a shaman variant itself. They are not merely mages that use elemental powers (such as the common elements of wind, air) but rather arcanists (which is a broad term that can be used to describe any class that uses arcane of any school) that "revere" the elemental spirits that would, in a shamanic sense, allow them power. Elemental spirits (synonymous with the term "elementals") are out of limits for mages, as they are for other variants of arcanists besides those that deal with shamanic privilleges (example: shamans, geomancers, etc).

The term "elementalist" is really just a shaman with reverence towards various "elementals," or "elemental spirits," who may choose to either benevolently or manevolently use these spirits for power.

Does that help explain it? (:

Edit:

Note that when mages deal with elementals, they are enslaving them or otherwise making some sort of deal. There is no history of elementals granting mages some level of their power, such as the ability to move air or some such sort of things, but rather to employ the elementals directly.

On another level, that a mage could employ the use of the arcane to move ground is somewhat silly as well. If a mage can use the arcane to rip a boulder from the earth, what would stop that mage from being able to rip limbs from bodies? I was not under the impression that their seemingly force-related abilities applied to that sort of capacity. Sure, they can stop themselves from falling and animate small objects through enchantment, but what you're asking is to have the capability to seemingly enchant pieces of earth or otherwise command them via the arcane.

I can imagine how you may think that a mage could make a bubble of arcane to lift a rock to fling it at someone, but when mages make other objects fly around it is usually because they've enchanted them. Besides, why go through all of the trouble when you can just summon a shard of ice to toss about? Occam's Razor.
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#74
Do bare in mind that everything found upon the Elementalist page upon WoWWiki or WoWPedia comes from Dark Factions, a Warcraft RPG book which is now considered non-canon in the scheme of things.

The Elementalists found within WoW come under a few catagories in regards to their abilities. They are members of the Earthen Ring which is a shamanistic organisation and hence, they would be shamans or shamanistic in origin (Example). They are also other Elementalists that aren't part of the Earthen Ring, these however either have solely shamanistic abilities (Example) or they have arcanic abilities (Example). Then, finally, there is the the Twilight Hammer people whom are often either of arcanic origin (Example) or shamanistic origin (Example) or some strange Twilight magic origin (Example) which we wont even consider due to their roots.
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#75
(11-28-2011, 09:05 PM)Serendipitous Wrote: Even the variant of "Elementalist," as you've pointed out, Aphetoros, seems to be a shaman variant itself. They are not merely mages that use elemental powers (such as the common elements of wind, air) but rather arcanists (which is a broad term that can be used to describe any class that uses arcane of any school) that "revere" the elemental spirits that would, in a shamanic sense, allow them power. Elemental spirits (synonymous with the term "elementals") are out of limits for mages, as they are for other variants of arcanists besides those that deal with shamanic privilleges (example: shamans, geomancers, etc).

The term "elementalist" is really just a shaman with reverence towards various "elementals," or "elemental spirits," who may choose to either benevolently or manevolently use these spirits for power.

Does that help explain it? (:

Elementalists study arcane elemental magic
The elementalist — often a Twilight's Hammer cultist — is an arcanist who specializes in several specific elements of his choice (acid, cold, etc.).[2]

ARcanist term from the RPG does not include shaman.

Tell me then, if it's from the RPG and thus not canon, why we can have techno-mages, techno-priests, and cyborg arms.

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