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MoP Ending Cinematic
#46
@Thoradin

I'm curious if you read Tides of War, Jaina's book for pre-Mists. Garrosh isn't interested in ruling the "lesser races". As he stated in Tides of War, he is interested in complete domination of Azeroth, the destruction of Stormwind and the Alliance, and more.

Tides of War Wrote:“I thought too small—that was the problem. This is no longer about taking over Kalimdor. It is about crushing the Alliance utterly! Wiping their filth off the face of Azeroth! Burning Stormwind to the ground, and Wrynn with it! A war not for control of a single continent, but for conquest of this very world. We can do this; we are the Horde! But victory will be ours only if our plans are sound, our wills focused, our hearts strong and true!”

Tides of War made it clear. Garrosh is quite happy to kill every man, woman, and child under the Alliance, and he is willing to use beasts, elementals, and demons to do it.

Tides of War Wrote:“More ships. More weapons. More elementals and beasts and demons obeying our commands. More soldiers need to be conscripted. Male, female, child—they can all contribute to the glory of the Horde.”
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#47
Actually, all of these shenanigans with Garrosh reminds me a lot of shenanigans in another game's settings. Eve.

On an ipad atm but I shall do the best to explain: Tibus Heth is the leader of the Caldari Faction. Then this happened.

Nonni – Kaalakiota Corporation has been granted a State-wide corporate warrant by the Caldari Business Tribunal for Tibus Heth's arrest on charges of malfeasance, misappropriation and embezzlement. The Chief Executive Panel has similarly announced that Heth is wanted under Caldari basic law for the murder of Admiral Visera Yanala, terrorism, and political extremism stemming from his takeover of the Caldari Constructions Warehouse in Haatomo.

Heth is wanted by the Kaalakiota for the theft of vessels he used to conduct his takeover of the Caldari Constructions station in Haatomo, as well as embezzlement of corporate resources used to fund the Caldari Providence Directorate over the course of several years. The megacorporation was forced to auction off countless assets to remain solvent following disclosure of Heth's long-term misappropriations.

The Chief Executive Panel has announced that it prefers Heth to be returned alive for a proper trial before the Caldari Business Tribunal, but has acknowledged that “capturing the renegade alive may not be possible.”
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#48
To be fair, if Garrosh is trying to emulate pappy, back in his time the Horde kinda did raze Stormwind to the ground and kill everyone they could find.

So there's that. Old school Horde was pretty much maimkillburn.
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#49
(09-12-2013, 09:12 AM)JVNemesis Wrote: So there's that. Old school Horde was pretty much maimkillburn.

Those were more innocent times. Back then, if you needed something done, you did it! You didn't wait 3 expansions for a thought of doing it.[/i]
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#50
@Mathias

That doesn't seem, to me at least, like he is going to go out of his way to kill every human, dwarf, gnome, night elf, and whatever else just because they are Alliance. I read that paragraph as a more violent means of "I will stop at nothing to break the will of the Alliance, by killing it's leaders and burning it's capitals." The average farmer might have his fields burnt, but may just survive. Granted Garrosh even had the chance to do all of this.

I still think he just wants to be like his father and then be more than his father. Like I said, the Sins of the Father fall upon the shoulders of the Son.
Do you have what it takes to join the Fighting Blues?
Do you have what it takes to defend your homeland?
Will you stand up in defense of the innocent? The weak?
Will you stand up in defense of Justice and the Law?

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#51
If I were to air my biggest issue here, it would be what Blizzard has done with the Orcish race, which is one of my favorites in the lore. The very rise of the Horde introduced the struggle for the clans of the Orcish race to get along, and through the wars they were able to. And yet, they're still constantly presented as a race that can't take care of themselves if they don't have a 'great and rightious' warchief to keep things coordinated. When Garrosh became warchief in Cataclysm, and was only meant to be a temporary one, you'd think that the entirety of the Orcish race wouldn't be so loyal to him through his extremely radical moves through these last two expansions. And it's as if all Orcs that are involved in the Horde are loyal or at least okay with what their new warchief is doing. And since they've been portrayed like that, it's as if the actions of Garrosh represent the actions of the Horde, and so basically in MoP they become the bad guy race and the other races rebel in order to keep them in check. And Vol'jin being appointed as warchief is trying to establish that Orcs can't take care of themselves. I mean yeah, all those rebellions make sense, but the fact that they had to happen the way they did is what I find distasteful about...well the entire expansion. Yeah, it caused some nice conflict, but they took the easy way out and painted the Orcs of the Horde as the bad guys. It just...leaves a very bad taste in the mouth if you liked the earlier story of the Orcish race.

Another race gets beaten with the 'bad guy stick', but that's a whole other subject.

...Jaina's entire character has taken a complete 180 by this cinematic, and to a comical level. Also saddening if you enjoyed her character after reading Tides of War.

And I can just tell that they're going to do something ridiculous with Garrosh if they're going to keep him alive. And dang, way to disappoint those raiders who spent all the time they did to take down the big bad.
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#52
I actually liked the whole cinematic. Sept for the part where each character changed. Personality wise at least. Totally commenting now because I didn't before!
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#53
So.

IN MY OPINION...

I don't like this cinematic either. I'll get to detail.

First off, I'd just like to say that this cinematic isn't just bad on writing. It's also -technically- bad. As in, I'm pretty sure I've seen better machinimas in some cases during this thing.

Blizzard can make good models. Just look at Garrosh, the best graphical bit in this scene. Thrall is a close second, perhaps on virtue of them both being orcs and thus being easier to nail without going into uncanny territory. Vol'jin is also good.

The rest are bad. Really bad when compared to the aforementioned trio.

Varian and Jaina-- especially Jaina-- are still in a sort of uncomfortable intermediary phase between the old WoW graphics and the new ones. The old WoW graphics worked fine when in their environment-- the WotLK cinematics were alright, because there was a consistency in the style. They were all slightly polished normal models. Here, Jaina is just... uncanny. Unsettlingly so. Varian isn't quite as bad, but you definitely see a disconnect in how he looks compared to the others. Those eyebrows, man. They're awful bushy for hugging directly to your face. Maybe he should erase some of them.

The other leaders are just... eh. Sylvanas looks alright, but Gallywix and Lorthemar look -laughable- in their appearances here. As was pointed out, Gally looks like a puppet. I don't think his hat is setting right on his head either. Lorthemar... I'm not even sure.

Also Anduin still looks freaky.



Now, regarding what's actually going down in the cinematic--

-Vol'jin as Warchief
I don't mind. Seriously. The new warchief was either going to be Thrall or Vol'jin, because those are the safest and most predictable choices that Blizzard could have given. It makes sense from what they set up, but it does negate all of their hype of 'YOU WON'T EXPECT WHO' and all that crap.

What does confuse me is... why is anyone letting Thrall make decisions anymore? His last choice was Garrosh, and that blew up in everyone's collective faces. I get that Vol'jin is clearly a better pick in comparison, but why don't any of the other Horde leaders get to voice an opini--

...Actually, why don't they even get to speak at all? I'm not asking for them to riot at the idea or try and put themselves forth, but uh... dont'cha got some input, guys? No? Just going to nod your heads and bow? Were the voice actors on strike that day? Were they on break? Couldn't get any of the other important characters to do anything more than just stand there?

No one?

[Image: aah4.png]

Yeah, guess that's a no.


-Jaina
Has been talked to death already I'm sure. I find her switch to be cartoonish and I think Garrosh might have passed the idiot ball to her.


--Garrosh Living
I found this pretty strange a choice. This character is a bad character. They have not done well writing him, and they seemed to have lost the direction they intended a few times in the past. Justlethimdie, guys. The only good he could be is to throw in a weird resurgence thing with him coming back and wrecking more stuff.

He will not have a redemption arc. He's a genocidal maniac, from the way he has been characterized. He doesn't have any issue ruining a land he just barely found, without any aggression against him from the inhabitants. Blizzard -confirmed- that Garrosh was not corrupted, and that his actions were all his own. I would be -floored- to hear that a character like Garrosh was considered redeemable in contrast to a character like Illidan. I really hope it doesn't go down this road.

Also, yeah. Take 'im to court. We should get around to doing that to Arthas too then. I'm preeeeetty sure he's guilty.

--Taran Zhu
Remains the best written character. I can only pray that he is forgotten come the next expansion so that he can't be ruined. I would say that yeah, Pandaria suffered a -ton- from Garrosh, enough to at least let him take custody of the guy for whatever silly trial they're going to have. Worth remembering that the source of Pandaria's lush fields and thus their crops and food all came from the now corrupted Vale. That's got some negative connotations to it for them which I'm sure won't be followed up on.

This whole expansion has been 'see who can screw up Pandaria more', personally. That and them being a truly neutral faction between the Alliance and Horde, I don't mind that he's doing what he's doing there. At least from a character perspective.

--Where the heck is this even going?
Seriously, how do you even continue the 'war' of warcraft from this point? I see no justification for the factions to keep fighting. Varian may have said his bit like a jerk there, but really. Why would they want to keep the fight going after this idiocy took place?


Idunno. I didn't like it. That's my opinion on the matter. I don't see any reason to get frothing mad about it, because the story aspect of the game has been on a firm decline for a while. It's frustrating, but that's the World of Warcraft that you play.
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#54
Rigley said everything I'm too lazy to say.
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#55
Going to try my best to not go into another long-winded rant here. I'll probably fail, but I'll give it my best effort. I did want to clarify my position a bit.

(09-12-2013, 04:17 AM)Rini Wrote: I just don't understand the hate for a non-orc warchief, it seems really silly and... well, racist, especially considering that Vol'jin is a pretty darn good character as a whole.

Before we start using politically-charged buzz words, keep in mind that racism between fantasy species and RL racism are very different things. We good there? Yeah? Moving on.

The problem I have, personally, is not that a troll will be the next warchief, but instead how they decided to send the orcs off. The orcs have been center-stage since Warcraft 1, they've always been what defined the Horde. And then you drag them through the mud, hitting them with the villain bat, for two full expansions before kicking them out of leadership. All this with the apparent implication that orcs are too bloodthirsty and incompetent to do anything right unless a non-orc or a human-raised orc is leading them. If the writing had been better and the orcs weren't treated like dirt for the past two expansions, I'd probably be more fine with this.

(09-12-2013, 05:52 AM)JVNemesis Wrote: I've kinda started relating WoW to Disney storytelling, in a way. They don't have the time/opportunity to show everything that happens. Disney movies happen in a bit over an hour, usually. Is that enough time to show a developing and convincing love? Well, no. So they rush it, and we nod and go with it (or cry about it being unrealistic, but it's Disney, come on). WoW's an MMO. The player's not going to be able to see every little thing that happens in order to change a character, so sometimes character changes are out of left field. Sure, they could try to focus super hard on one character, but what about all the people that don't like that?

I think you're underselling Disney and overselling Blizzard there. But since you want to make that comparison, let me compare WoW to, say, Beauty and the Beast. An unfair comparison considering BatB is considered one of the best, if not the best, Disney movie, I know, but it serves as a good comparison because in that movie we have characters that undergo large changes in motivation and personality.

In watching Beauty and the Beast, I am given and can convey the following:

A. The initial motivations and personality of the main cast. (Belle is an intelligent and independent woman who wants more than the hum-drum life in her village. The Beast is a spoiled brat who is angry and self-loathing at his curse. The castle staff are kindly servants that see Belle as an opportunity to break the curse on them by bringing the pair together. Gaston is arrogant and conceited, wanting to be the best and wanting Belle because she's the one woman who seems to be able to resist his advances.)

B. The reasons why these personality traits and motivations may change, and when they happened. (Belle grows fond of the Beast because he stops treating her like crap and because she's honestly hoping for an adventure and fairy tale, even if this isn't what she initially wanted. The Beast becomes nicer to Belle through the insistence of his servants, the desire to end the curse, and some genuine attraction as he starts to let down his guard. Gaston wants to kill the beast for fame, and as a twisted sort of revenge against Belle.)

And there's the main problem with Blizzard writing: we aren't given the "why" of these changes. Creative writing 101: show, don't tell. Show us why these characters have personality flip-flops, as otherwise it just comes off as unprovoked and lazy. Yes, I know WoW is a game and isn't going to have grand, operatic storytelling. I know they have limited time to tell the story they want to tell. But incorporating motivations is kind of a necessary element to any story. This is especially bad with Varian and Garrosh, whose character flip-flops aren't given any context at all.

The one character they -tried- to do this with was Jaina...and, well, that didn't go so well. Her problem was that the 180 she did was disproportionate to what provoked it, but at least the effort was there, unlike with most of their characters.

It comes down to how Blizzard writes their stories. They write stories that, individually, aren't terrible. Not great, but not terrible either. MoP taken by itself isn't the worst thing I've seen from Blizz. It -becomes- that once continuity starts entering the picture, because Blizzard writes their stories without care of what came before. To them, it doesn't matter what came before or what comes after; all that matters is what they're doing now. And so there's little surprise it ends up a complete mess.

(09-12-2013, 06:13 AM)Spiky Wrote: I'd also point out.. When has it ever been tradition that the Horde be led by an orc? Let's see who's been Warchief.. 2 People.

You're forgetting Doomhammer and Blackhand.
Have you hugged an orc today?
- I am not tech support. Please do not contact me regarding technical issues. -
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#56
(09-12-2013, 09:18 AM)Thoradin Wrote: That doesn't seem, to me at least, like he is going to go out of his way to kill every human, dwarf, gnome, night elf, and whatever else just because they are Alliance. I read that paragraph as a more violent means of "I will stop at nothing to break the will of the Alliance, by killing it's leaders and burning it's capitals." The average farmer might have his fields burnt, but may just survive. Granted Garrosh even had the chance to do all of this.

There is a large difference between saying "I will wipe the Alliance off the face of Azeroth" and saying "I will siege their cities and crush their leaders". I won't get started on Garrosh's silly comment about using demons when he was strictly anti-demon/anti-fel in Cata.

Despite mostly playing my human who is pro-Stormwind, pro-humanity, and pro-Alliance, I am very disappointed in Blizzard's decision to, once again, ignore the other racial leaders of the Alliance in favor of Jaina and Varian. In case anyone doesn't know, several Alliance leaders are there to help Alliance players fight their way through Orgrimmar, and there was a video that I'm trying to find that shows the other Alliance leaders around a defeated Garrosh Hellscream. Gelbin, Moira, Tyrande, even Genn Greymane was supposedly at Orgrimmar to help you get to Garrosh. So... where were they? Why couldn't they add in their comment or suggestion about what to do with Orgrimmar and the Horde? Why is it just Jaina and Varian? Hell, the Horde at least got a goblin that not actually in the game anywhere besides the goblin starting zones to tip his hat.

I would have liked Velen there, too. Him and his infinite wisdom could have persuaded Varian to his "I'll give another warning and be on my way" path instead of it being him making the noble decision by himself. Remember Velen, Blizzard? He was supposed to be kind of a big deal.
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#57
(09-12-2013, 08:29 AM)Mathias Wrote:
(09-12-2013, 05:39 AM)Xigo Wrote: How many of these things were Garrosh, again? Theramore definitely. Aaaand Ashenvale was a warzone long before Garrosh, he just kicked it up a notch because HOT DAMN HORDE NEED THAT WOOD. The other two were Sylvannas.

But... really? I know we like to hate on everything Blizzard writes lately, but at least the Horde and Alliance were already WAY into war when that happened. Why would Garrosh ignore Theramore? A human settlement right next to Durotar? That place was doomed.

Pandaren were just sort of chilling when suddenly HORDE AND ALLIANCE ON PANDARIA. AH GAD. ANCIENT SPIRITS AWAKENING. OH GOD. EVIL GOD AWAKENING! ALCOHOL ELEMENTALS AWAKENING! HORDE AND ALLIANCE BRINGING SUPER-MURLOCS AND MONKEYS INTO WAR. WHAT'S GOING OOOON!?
I'll concede to most of your points. I did put down Southshore because Garrosh basically did nothing about Sylvanas. However, even if he didn't order the plague, he did order the charge into Gilneas that would kick thousands of people out of their home. While Garrosh isn't directly responsible for most things I put down, his crimes against the Alliance (and Horde) are still worse than what the Pandaren had to go through.

(09-12-2013, 08:11 AM)Thoradin Wrote: The Vale of Eternity will forever remain a dead land, which makes it worse because it was the single most holy, most revered, most respected tract of land in Pandaria. It is where Shao Hao gave his life, merged with the land itself, and saved it from the forces of the Burning Legion.

Already being healed.

I don't see where this is coming from. You've gone and pitted the sapient creatures (here, the Hozen and Jinyu) of an entire continent against eachother for your own benefit, abused the natives' (here, the Pandaren) hospitality to the point of actually building fortresses on their land and probably destroying two Gilneas' worth of arable land, homes and people - while at the same time wordlessly saying "You're basically gonna die if you don't pick a side in this fight, so start killing your own people yo."

Maybe I'm skewed because I kind of thing Gilneas is (in terms of IC decisions, OOCly they are pretty dang awesome) the dumbest nation ever. Ever. "Hey, we've locked ourselves behind a giant wall and refused to talk to anybody. "Why is this giant force of Undead knocking down our wall when we 1) refused to contact or respond to any of their (likely) ambassadors and 2) probably callously watched them all die in the Third War anyway? I just don't get it!"

But regardless of how ham-fisted it may be, the point of the Mists of Pandaria is (in part) to show the war between the Alliance and Horde from a new, innocent perspective - and how badly they've been screwed over by both the Alliance and Horde. Throwing the heart of an Old God into the center of their continent (which, really, is infinitely more naughty than both attacking a town with plague and using a mana-bomb on a military base) is pretty bad on its own, but it's the perspective it's coming from that seals the deal - the Pandaren put up with all kinds of crazy crap, then get rewarded by an insane Orc screwing up 1/5 of their island, defiling the center of their civilisation (they took it pretty well - look how mental the Night Elves have gone in the past few years) and also basically killing the leader of their military because 'he said something mean about my poppa.'

As heinous as the stuff that happened to the Alliance and Horde is, the Alliance is in a war. The difference between screwing up the land of an enemy group and screwing up the land of a neutral, ostensibly friendly group (especially after stealing their stuff) makes a universe of difference.

I will say that corrupting the forest heart is pretty damn sour of Garrosh - that's the only thing, in my mind, that comes close to the corruption of the vale, but the consequences that come from it seem kinda... Tiny. The Alliance immediately get a quest to restore it after it's been borked up, as well.

So yeah. Those're my thoughts.

(09-12-2013, 11:06 AM)Mathias Wrote:
(09-12-2013, 09:18 AM)Thoradin Wrote: That doesn't seem, to me at least, like he is going to go out of his way to kill every human, dwarf, gnome, night elf, and whatever else just because they are Alliance. I read that paragraph as a more violent means of "I will stop at nothing to break the will of the Alliance, by killing it's leaders and burning it's capitals." The average farmer might have his fields burnt, but may just survive. Granted Garrosh even had the chance to do all of this.

There is a large difference between saying "I will wipe the Alliance off the face of Azeroth" and saying "I will siege their cities and crush their leaders". I won't get started on Garrosh's silly comment about using demons when he was strictly anti-demon/anti-fel in Cata.

Despite mostly playing my human who is pro-Stormwind, pro-humanity, and pro-Alliance, I am very disappointed in Blizzard's decision to, once again, ignore the other racial leaders of the Alliance in favor of Jaina and Varian. In case anyone doesn't know, several Alliance leaders are there to help Alliance players fight their way through Orgrimmar, and there was a video that I'm trying to find that shows the other Alliance leaders around a defeated Garrosh Hellscream. Gelbin, Moira, Tyrande, even Genn Greymane was supposedly at Orgrimmar to help you get to Garrosh. So... where were they? Why couldn't they add in their comment or suggestion about what to do with Orgrimmar and the Horde? Why is it just Jaina and Varian? Hell, the Horde at least got a goblin that not actually in the game anywhere besides the goblin starting zones to tip his hat.

I would have liked Velen there, too. Him and his infinite wisdom could have persuaded Varian to his "I'll give another warning and be on my way" path instead of it being him making the noble decision by himself. Remember Velen, Blizzard? He was supposed to be kind of a big deal.

It might be a saving grace that Velen isn't there - could you imagine the self-righteous ranting Varian would throw his way? "NO VELEN YOU SILLY DRAENEI KEEP OUT OF THIS, I AM THE HIGH KING NOW."




Move him into the sun—
Gently its touch awoke him once,
At home, whispering of fields half-sown.
Always it woke him, even in France,
Until this morning and this snow.
If anything might rouse him now
The kind old sun will know.

Think how it wakes the seeds,—
Woke, once, the clays of a cold star.
Are limbs, so dear-achieved, are sides,
Full-nerved—still warm—too hard to stir?
Was it for this the clay grew tall?
—O what made fatuous sunbeams toil
To break earth’s sleep at all?
[Image: 62675bf4fd.jpg] [Image: 0e7357dcfe.jpg]
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#58
Quote:Beauty and the Beast

You're right, that's a good example. It was well-done. Now, however, look at the counterexamples, off the top of my head:

Lion King 1/2, Little Mermaid, Fox and the Hound, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Cinderella....can't think of anything else, at the moment. It's easy to just pick out one good example and go from there. I could do the same thing with WoW, find one quest that was really well done, but I'm trying to look at it overall.

I suppose I'll just leave it at: show me another MMO where there's even half as much character development or face time for major characters. Show me one where they have the character spotlights and development you want.

It just doesn't work in this game type. Blizzard's given motivations and reasoning for the characters. They just aren't on the level that's being demanded.

Quote: You're forgetting Doomhammer and Blackhand.

He probably meant new Horde, in which case, he's right.


...And, again. Seriously. It's the Kor'kron that's doing all the really bad stuff for Garrosh. The Kor'kron and Zaela's Dragonmaw. There are orcs in the rebellion. Not every orc just sided with Garrosh. I wish people would stop saying that.
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#59
As much as I make fun off the voice acting [Trahern] - I think GW2 does an alright job at showing character progression for an MMO. Things are rockey between a lot of the main characters, but you watch and see why things are steadily getting patched up. And it's not just a 180 WE ARE BFFS AGAIN. It's a 'we're working on it' type deal. They do a lot better than WoW, at least.
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#60
I don't see why we're drawing characterization comparisons to Disney movies. Disney has animated primarily fairy tales (or fables), which have a definitive way of presenting their characters. In fairy tales, it wasn't important for the change in the characters to be dramatic and entertaining (although they often could be), it was only important that the character change in favor of the morality that the author was trying to pin into his or her audience. And if I were to define Disney storytelling, it would be the animation (and unintentional theft) of established literature that presented morals that Walt Disney wanted to teach his audience in a family friendly way. (youdon'tknowhowharditwastonotrantaboutdisney) This isn't what WoW is trying to do and I wouldn't want it to do something like that.

But back to the topic...well I don't have much else to say, other than this:

(09-12-2013, 10:22 AM)Rigley Wrote: I would be -floored- to hear that a character like Garrosh was considered redeemable in contrast to a character like Illidan. I really hope it doesn't go down this road.

I will flip tables if they try to redeem Garrosh as a character. The Orcish race being redeemed (and I wish they wouldn't need to be)? Sure. Garrosh? Heck naw. Let's be done with him, please.

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