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Omniscience
#1
Alright, guys. Let's have a little chat. I speak to you as Moose the player, not Moose the GM. As far as I'm concerned, there is very little distinction. But listen up. This is important.

There've been recent accusations of GMs mongering power, keeping it all for themselves, refusing to listen to players--I think we know who the people I'm talking about are. I know you all don't like some people, and there's going to be drama no matter who goes up, but . . . let me tell you a story, CotH. This isn't exactly the story of my life, but it's important enough, I like to think.

When I first came to the server, few people paid attention to me. I was . . . well, I was new. That was about three and a half months ago, last I checked. I eventually broke into the community, and as a grunt, I posted this thread. I am not ashamed of what I've posted, though my views have changed somewhat since. If you're interested in looking at it, well. There it is, possibly the only thing I've ever regretted posting on CotH. But you know what it was?

It was an effort to help.

Since the first day I've been here, I've wanted to help CotH. I've seen, in ways, what I think will happen if people don't try--if people give up, say "screw this" and leave. I have been tempted to do this many times, both with what I've seen from GMs, Grunts and Peons alike. But you know what? I've stuck through with it. I'm here not because I want a lot of power, nor because I want to be able to tell you guys what to do. I'm not here to flaunt my GM tag. I'm not here to make an ass of myself.

Like every other GM on the team, I am here to HELP.

Now let's get down to business. I don't like what I'm hearing. People are ragequitting over who's become a GM. People don't like what's going on with the GMs. I can tell you this--I've heard next to nothing about this formally given to us, aside from the ragequits. I have seen very few PMs sent to us regarding "Oh, so-and-so shouldn't be a GM," or "So-and-so is abusing their powers." The fact that you guys continue to grumble and say to each other "Ugh, I hate him" and "She doesn't deserve GMhood," you are NOT HELPING.

I can rightly say you've pissed me off, CotH. I understand your frustrations. But you have to understand ours, too--it's a lot of work, and we're just volunteers. We're just like the rest of you. We are not power hungry. We are not greedy. We are just players who want to help. You can say that this isn't true all you like. But that doesn't help anything.

You want to know what helps?

Here's what helps: TALK to us. We are /not/ omniscient. We can NOT hear your under-the-breath grumblings as you say nothing to us. Telling us all of a sudden that we're not doing our jobs is like a slap in the face. Telling us that some of our members are power-hungry only tells /me/ that you're one of two things: jealous, or someone with perfectly valid reason that you just haven't told us about. And both of those? Terrible.

Communication is a huge thing. The fact that you guys don't even try to talk to us is very abhorrent. Tell us what you want. Use the forums. PM us. Talk to us in-game. DON'T post ragequit "This person never should have been a GM" threads. PM the admins if you're afraid that the GM in question will see it. If you want us to get rid of people who aren't doing their jobs, you have to /TELL/ us that they're not doing their jobs, or else we're probably not going to realize what's going on.

If you have any problems at all with the administration, or with the other players on CotH, tell us /right away/. We try to be lenient, but if it's ruining the fun of the server for everyone else, we'll deal with the problem. You just have to let us know that something's wrong.

I've heard the chatter about GMs before, as I was a Grunt up until very recently--why do you tell no one? We are humans just like you. We are not gods. We do not have godlike powers. We are here to make /your/ experience the best we possibly can . . . and when it's not, something needs to be done.

I can't see inside your head, CotH. I speak from the bottom of my heart when I say I want to help this server, and I have full faith that every other GM does. But I can't see everything, either. If you disagree with me, send a PM to the admins. We'll take care of it, we really will. Don't think you don't have a say.
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#2
I have to agree.

And to add on what Moose eloquently said, you guys NEED to communicate with us. To be honest, when we make a choice on something that helps out the players we are forced to assume what the reaction would be. We are -really- not going to ban you or some other BS if you don't make a ragepost and intelligently tell us whatever issue you are having in PM's.

Secondly, please don't complain about things if you have made no attempts to help it. It's like complaining that the Fire Department never comes because you didn't call them or expecting the police to come because you got robbed without saying anything. If you don't like something that we have introduced or changed; TELL US. How else are we supposed to know that what we do is horrible? I mean, I assume we don't do things that (usually) make people pull their hair out, but as much as I would like to, I can't read peoples minds.
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#3
To rephrase what Lethys has said:

Go right ahead and complain about things, regardless of whether or not you've tried to do anything about it. It is NOT your job to police chat, for example. That's our job. If someone is bugging you, SS it and let us know. We'll fix it. It is not your job to try and fix all the problems that the playerbase experiences. You don't have to do anything to try and fix it, and in some cases it may be best to let us handle it. BUT you need to tell us about your problems.

In other words, do complain. Complain all you want. Just be sure to complain TO US.
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#4
Moose Wrote:It is NOT your job to police chat.
I think alot of that is people wanting to show that they are able to police the chat, to show that they are GM worthy. I could be wrong, but that's what it seems like to me. Now I speak of going beyond the occasional 'take it to barrens, pl0x'. But when people start spittin' the rules.

I'm going to write up some stuff, and I will definatly send someone a list of my deman-.. concerns and comments.

Edit: Fix'd the Quote.
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#5
Thanks, Kael. That's exactly what we're looking for.
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#6
Fake GM #32: We have to protect our phoney baloney jobs here, gentlemen! We must do something about this immediately! Immediately! Immediately! Harrumph! Harrumph! Harrumph!

Don't ask me why. xD It seemed an amusing quote for the topic.

Anyways, I think the GMs do a fine job. >.> Though I've only been around for about a month and a half so far.

They answer questions, help out with random things, all that good stuff.

If you ask they usually pop their heads up when needed, and they don't even run when your shadow hits...wait that's groundhogs.

(looks around)

Wait.....where am I?
Mistress Sylea Moonwhisper - Human - Azeroth Trade Syndicate
Baroness Ariannah Timaeus - Human - The Scourgebane Trinitus
Valishna- Draenei - Unaffiliated
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#7
Mikhain Wrote:Or- you could just accept it and not question it.

Mikhain scares me though. XD

Jokes aside, one of the reasons why these people ragequitted was because of the poor quality people coming in the server now. We entered CoTH knowing it was the quality no-bull server that RPers dreamed of. The lack of quality nowadays was PROBABLY due to some policies like the Introduction Thread being a non-requirement, which was due to the fact that it was implemented before people had a say and weighed the pros and cons instead of being intent with a GMs opinion. Quantity Vs. Quality. Anyway, I don't want to bring this up here, I brought this up because of the point that yeah, sometimes we don't get a say in things and even if we do complain, it's bound to be shut down. Though, that's weighing the opposing side of Moose's argument. Personally I agree with what Moose said. And this issue, I should probably add to my list of complaints.

As for the GM thing....yeah. I think this problem has been around for so long. I've been here since November last year and I saw Sasail at his best too (When he was really into the game, being like a brother to the players...and before he got hurt by some complainers), only to be brought down the same way Timmy was brought down. I don't know if it's the fault of the GMs or of jealous players/ragequitters who complain about the forums. Heck, I have no idea politics like this was shaping up. Maybe it would take some effort from both sides. Players respecting the heirarchy (The fact that GMs are helpers, not some higher entity), and the GMs tolerating some bad seeds here and there.

Well, I just like to say, thanks for not ragequitting the GM job, GMs. The complaints to you must be hard and sometimes personal. Maybe it's another qualification for the GM job, but I don't know, you deserve better respect. We're here to help, especially on lore questions in the Chat channel
[Image: 2r3hym9.png]
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Riggs Ravenhook - Swarmy Old Goblin Thief and Corporate Nuisance
Gorudo Goldforge - Goldforge Clan Remnant and Ranger
Turic Carsten - Stormwind Regular

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#8
I really want to emphasis on not only Moose, but what Lethys said on communication.

The reason why CotH is a community is because we support each other, no? We can't be a community if everyone's backstabbing each other or just waiting until they ragequit to let loose people's opinions on GMs. I regularly ask colleagues if I'm doing anything wrong, and I do take them to heart and try not to make the same mistake twice. Think how much easier it would be if players could do the same. It'd lift a burden, without a doubt.

We're human, guys. Contrary to the popular belief we're just walking, talking banhammers.

Talk to us! If you have a concern about another GM, either PM your views to Kretol or Grakor, or heck, even to a different GM and we can pass them along. We have plenty of staff.
"I am more afraid of one hundred sheep led by a lion than one hundred lions led by a sheep."
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#9
Well to be honest even though I'm friends with a lot of the GM staff it's still sometimes intimidating or even unpleasant to talk to them about stuff. I hear a lot of phrases such as "you don't know about what is going on", "you don't know anything", etc. Which may perfectly well hold some value behind it, but stuff like that is basically a poorly worded STFU. I am aware that the GM team is under a lot of stress, but do I think that is an excuse for rude behaviors and not respecting people enough to explain the situation to them? No. It's stuff like that which makes the GM staff really look like a bunch of unfriendly asses to the rest of the community.

A common excuse I did hear once was "the GM staff are volunteers, don't expect us to do X" This sort of mentality is also something that gives off a really poor image of the GM staff in total. As I said before I understand that the GM staff do have a lot to do, but I personally don't at all believe that that is an excuse to not do certain aspects of your job. It was volunteered to be done by you after all, and if you don't want to deal with it then you do have the option to step down.

Now, what I just said was extremely harsh, but I do want to point out that statements like that do brew negative attitudes towards the GM staff. Things like making server announcements to remind a very specific group of people of a certain rule is also a rather poor thing to do when it could easily be discussed with the group in question privately and not cause them as much embarrassment. The player base is largely not composed of fools, and deserves to be equally respected as such by the GM staff. Now, granted, there are a bunch of idiots in the player base as well, and such people need to be dealt with as well, but things like that should be taken care of privately and quickly. I recall someone who was messing around with the GMs a few weeks back by continuously picking really horrible names when he was forced to be renamed. People like that should really be disposed of quickly if they aren't willing to listen to reason and are just doing it to screw around with us.

I also recall that a few weeks back I made a mistake regarding how prestige classes are handled and accidentally led two players wrong with my mistake. Eventually this was all cleared up and got sorted out, much to my embarrassment, which was perfectly good, but then I recall that mistake seemed to be hung over my head for the next two weeks by some of the GMs which was I felt really rude. We all make mistakes, and especially in an environment where people are supposed to be having fun, I think once something is dealt with it should be able to go away without some lovely antagonizing to follow.

Personally, I've communicated some of my ideas to the GMs before regarding things like my belief that the introduction system should be reinstated, and most of the time they are either rejected with the above idea "you don't know X" or accepted but explained that there are whatever bureaucratic problems that prevent it from being put in place, which is a much more appropriate answer in my opinion. I don't really think that a lot of the stuff that goes on behind the curtains should be hidden, especially a lot of the stuff that will directly effect the player base and that is usually implemented without to my knowledge tossing the question out to any members of the player base itself, which doesn't make much sense at all in my opinion. I don't see why if something important that is going to be enforced on them they don't deserve to be able to place some input into those decisions.

Now, I personally disagree with the current GM system and how everything is run, and have explained this at one point at length to one of the GMs, and while I do really like a lot of the GM staff, and a lot of them are my friends, it is I think important to point out that most conceptions about them are based on observed attitudes towards other people, not pulled out of thin air.

Anyhow, take this as you will, but this is my beliefs on the matter. Ultimately we are here to have fun, not to run a system of hoop jumping bureaucracy, and so sometimes I think everyone takes things a little bit too seriously. We all have bad days, but that is just how it is.

Also, I luffles you all. :3
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#10
Vrahn Wrote:Stuff

Once again, I could not have worded it better myself and am stuck to a quote. I could have neglected posting here as I generally do, but wanted to throw my opinion out (despite using the words of somebody else). Whether it might or might not have any significant value to the thread, it's at least a thing off my chest.

Especially lately I've noticed GMs take things too seriously, especially in certain chat channels. I won't go into any real details, and actually send a PM to Grakor/Kretol recently about it which what I'm hoping will be seen as some feedback. I don't have any major issues with GMs, I hold no grudges or am of the belief that someone should not be a GM, but talking directly to a GM when I have a problem is something I rarely do. Especially when the blizzard GM tag shows up, I'm more likely to ignore then to speak my mind. Why? For starters, I dislike causing drama in-game, especially if it's to someone who holds any significant power and can actually kick me for stating my opinion/thoughts. To be honest, I'm always fearing it'll go bad in one way or another, and rather throw a comment about it in guild chat or party to get it out of my mind. I've seen GMs do the same in the Adult channel at time, complaining about users instead of dealing with them in a friendly way. Guess that's just how it is at the moment, and I'm personally unsure whether talking to a GM directly really changes this. If it does, I need to find someway to get over this fear for doing so, because I rather stay quiet and angry then talking it out and be seen as a drama causer.
Quote:Perhaps one day, at a new sight,
We will search again for that light.
Hold it close, between our arms,
Listen again, to the priestess her charms.
- Me, in a poetry named "The Priestess."
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#11
Aruen Wrote:
Vrahn Wrote:Stuff

I agree. I think also that the GMs are way too critical during char creation. I know I've earned the annoyance of Rensin becuase I keep rolling Coriv and yeah Ren is right, I've been re-rolling alot. But like I said, I want to make sure I make a char that I can stick with. We spend alot of time thinking about the bios, editing them, reworking them totally, only to have the big red DENIED with pretty much no reason besides "what about his childhood, what makes him who he is" If we put his entire life story, wouldn't that take the entire fun out of RP? I for one like keeping a level of mysteriousness with my toons. I mean if something about my childhood was relevent to the server, then definatly I would add childhood things. I just don't feel like details like that are needed.

I get the feeling that several players don't even make bios for some of their toons becuase they're too worried that it'll get denied and they have to rework it over and over, which takes away from the entire point of the server, to RP and have fun. Couldn't the forum at least have a few people who aren't GMS who can help people with their bio? I know the GMS are good at their craft as a moderator, or content GM or whatever, but it's just a major slap in the face when we get denied over something that we don't even think should be mentioning.

As for the GMs in game. I know that they share our love of RPing but alot of the time it seems they're too busy to help us becuase they're too busy RPing or helping their guild in someway. I'm not saying that they should stop RPing or anything. I love rping with Hawk and Moose, but couldn't there be at least one or two GMS who don't rp so they can help us regular peons? Or even meet with us in game to discuss why we got denied on the forum. It comes off a lot less dickish if we meet them face to face in game rather than just have a post on the forum.

Other than that I'm having a blast on the server
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#12
I've personally have been trying to tell people that the biggest problem on the server right now isn't anything that has to do with people being biast, or hate, or anything that simple. Between players, and GMs, the root of everything is communication. We are a board. A forum. And to be -quite- honest, a lot of conflict comes from two things, a lack of constructive communication, and a misinterpritation of what people say.

Point in case. Something that REALLY bothers me, but I don't let people know, is that people generally peg me as some jerk. I -love- the server. I really do. So I do what I can as a GM to help with the rules, to try and get things done, and really, by communicating with people to try and make this a fun place.

HOwever, due to me being quite blunt with my words, people easily get offended, and put a hostile tone on my words, which is quite easy to do. I try not to layer my posts with softening words that mess around with my point, like how some people do, and that can cause people to read my sentances as being cold and remote.

When I say "Please change this.", I'm not doing it to be a dick. I'm doing it because as a GM, I'm trying to make this place good.


Truth be told. Some people know this, but it can really, really hurt my feelings when I hear gossip about how I'm a "mean GM", or that people don't put me in the "nice category". Yeah, I'm blunt, but I'm a normal human with just as many emotions as any of you.

And lately, I'm freaking stressed. Heh, take this post however you'd like, but I can say I'm being honest with you guys.
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#13
Rensin Wrote:Between players, and GMs, the root of everything is communication.

I honestly felt I shouldn't put my opinion in here, but I figure if communication is so important, I'll speak my thoughts on this subject.

All of the GM's who posted here have the same very, very valid point in the matter that is "Players and GM's need to communicate."

At the same time, all the players who have done so have made the same valid point. Whenever we say anything to a GM a lot of the time, it's more or less ignored with some excuse that is in fact "a poorly worded STFU".

I'm not going to confirm or deny this, as I've never personally gotten this, but I have heard the same, recurring stories from several people who I RP with whilst we "grumble under our breaths" about it.

In all, I'd communicate with the GM's a lot more if not for one small thing. I feel as if I will be banned if I criticize any GM in chat, or even in /w.

What's made me feel this way is that in the last week or so, at least three GM's whom I honestly can't associate with forum names have taken the respect rule out of context or too seriously, only when it helps their argument. I do know the respect rule is important, but when it's then abused to favor a GM's yelling and berating someone in a public channel, I feel that's a bit too far, and not helping anyone's argument for either side.

Point is, I'm all in favor of more communication, and yeah, we do need to remember that the GM's are volunteers. At the same time, the GM's need to understand that there will always be that nervousness and uneasiness that will keep the players from stating their all, for the same reason one might not tell their boss their full opinion of them.

GM's are scary. Could be friends with them, but they're still kind of scary to us players in some respects.


I do like the current GM staff, I really do, and I think they're doing an excellent job, but I feel that both sides of this are to blame, not just the players and not just the GM's.
As someone wise once said, the important thing is never to be fearless or confident. Most people have more than enough trouble with both. The trick is to fake it, because if you learn to fake it properly, it's the same thing as actually having confidence.
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#14
I'm not trying to bad mouth anyone, I mean our GMs are way better than the retail ones.
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#15
My point is, why do you guys feel that you have to criticize us when you ask for stuff? Yes, constructiveness is welcome, but the reason we get so edgy with that stuff is because what we do, is up for -everyones- scrutiny. A majority of the time, we have conflicting opinions on stuff.

We don't say "STFU". Sometimes, people percieve it that way, becuase we are saying no. Sure, some things we won't bend on, but other things you'll see we do. And have.
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