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Peeved: Elven History

It might be rather soon after the fact to bring this up, but I am a bit peeved: I may even come off sounding as rude, but I do feel rather strongly on this topic. I was once a Forum Helper, and I felt the same way about it back then as well; Including Elven history on your Blood Elf’s profile is EXTREMELY important! The latest case is, of course, Cressy’s Galadria but I don’t mean to single the character out by any means. Just the processes that went about the character’s approval; Both the forum process, as well as thought process.

Perhaps it was the rude nature of the responses in the thread that really ended up provoking this, but I digress. To assume that the intake of Fel is just ‘fluff’ or ‘filler,’ and is “Yet is still unnecessary” is absolutely preposterous. If it means so little to your character, then it should at least be mandatory to include some -semblance- of Blood Elven History. I’ve written a guide on Elven History that is over five thousand four hundred words. To have that completely discredited and shoved to the side as fluff really sucks. The dozens of hours I put into research was most definitely not fluff nor filler for my day.

If the politics that go into becoming a Blood Elf don’t warrant use in a profile, then fel must, at least. Your character may not be the next Ranger-General, and have a zealous nationalism for their race and heritage, but at least understand that taking in fel isn’t something you just do willy nilly. It can shatter minds, break bodies, and ruin friendships. If the intake of Fel wasn’t a big deal, then there would be no separation between High Elf and Blood Elf. And, as far as I can remember, High Elves are not playable on Conquest of the Horde without a Custom Model Character.

Back to Elven History. If Fel is ignored, and the vast amount of Elven History is ignored, then it -must- at least be shown that there was a reason for them to stay with the Elves in Quel’thalas and not high tail it to Stormwind where the other High Elves are. If there is no historical reason, no political reason, no emotional reason, for them to have stayed and gone through a transformation that is an affront to everything they have stood for they are not Blood Elves. Their model might show their eyes are green, and their model might show that their skin is red, but they are most definitely not Blood Elves.

Now; I’ve said all I really need to say, and won’t be looking back at this post. Is you wish to reply, feel free, but the discussion will be with others, and not myself. I just hope that it at least changes a mind or two. Regardless, I understand it was kind of a lot of writing for one topic. Thank you for taking the time to read all the way through it, even if you don't really agree. Hug
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[-] The following 6 users Like Beltharean's post:
  • c0rzilla, Reigen, SachikoMaeda, Rowgen, CappnRob, aroes
I actually kinda agree with this. Kinda. xD
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I was once a GM, and feel exactly the opposite, and have felt the opposite for years.
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△Move along.△


[-] The following 2 users Like Harmonic's post:
  • Rigley, Mezrin
I don't care what the bottom line is, but I would like consistency. That's just my thought.

I'd probably favor including it in the history since it's something that should affect blood elves in some way, but that's just my preference. It would be like forgetting to include Gnomeregan in a gnome's history or some equally far-reaching influential event that somehow further defined the status of that race's current existence.
[-] The following 2 users Like Piroska's post:
  • Reigen, BountyHunter
I don't really enjoy how this is a thread effectively calling out single person on their character. It seems like something that could have been more cordially done in a private discussion topic or in PMs between.

While you may view responses on that thread as rude I would argue that this seems even more-so. No GM makes a whole thread calling out people on their characters, and neither do Forum Helpers. It doesn't set well with me.
[-] The following 3 users Like Rigley's post:
  • Harmonic, Loxmardin, Jonoth
The thing is if you're playing a blood elf it's implied you took in fel. If you didn't, you'd likely profile as a high elf or be a high elf which isn't allowed.

I don't know if certain parts should be mandatory in history or not. I think the bottom line should be this: is the character plausible? Is explicitly mentioning fel intake going to make the character more or less plausible for the setting? Is it necessary in making the character fit in?

I'd have to agree it feels a little redundant to add a line of flavor text saying you did _____ if it's a given for how your race is. If your character somehow dealt with it differently it's up to the writer of the profile to disclose it.
[-] The following 1 user Likes Wuvvums's post:
  • Harmonic
I'm gonna say I luffs Cressy. I'm not gonna say I pulled favoritism. There was a discussion had amongst those of us with the staff. My justification for approval, if wanted by the community, was that there was an understanding of her character.

Though I'm still new at this, we Forum Helpers have a tricky job to balance. We're either too nitpicky and get in trouble, or we miss a key factor and get in trouble.

I can understand the frustration from both sides. This one little profile has gotten me thinking about exactly what sorts of nitpicking we're supposed to do. In all actuality, there was no mix up regarding lore, no lore errors, and nothing insanely out there that would warrant a denial.

I'm just a Forum Monkey swinging from forum to forum and doing my thing. And I didn't approve it without fear of Reigen thwacking. It's why I didn't approve it right off the bat.
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[-] The following 3 users Like SachikoMaeda's post:
  • Wuvvums, Harmonic, Jonoth
See, the thing is, there's a huge difference between making it a plot-point, a pivotal moment of a character's life to take in Fel, or end up in the Internment Camps, or take part in Hyjal or be there when the Siege of Silvermoon happened, or watch the Path of Glory come to pass, and it simply being a fact of everyday life.

Let's take a couple of examples. My Templardin, Arlyn, took in Fel not out of thirst, but rather out of solidarity. Basically, the whole 'Remember the blood of the fallen' gist that the Blood Elves are named after, and a desire to forge a better, brighter future, even in the face of adversity. A gesture that shows 'Yes, I want to help these people. They are my people.' That's where the Fel intake becomes a plot point.

But then there's stuff like my Starcraft Ghost-expy, Nim. Fel's barely mentioned. Only took it in because a job required a BElf, and never gave it a second thought. That's where the Fel intake is a simple fact of everyday life, with next to zero bearing on who the character truly is.

So, in my opinion, where the Fel intake/Siege of Silvermoon/Restoration of the Sunwell/etc. - Where these facts are meaningful and have a strong bearing on who and what your character is, that's when they should definitely be included, because they explain your character's motivation.

Where they're simple facts of life, without any impact on the character, either due to their own carelessness or refusal to allow them to affect them, or whatever, that's where their inclusion is optional in my opinion. So, it's fine not have them in, if they didn't really mean much to you.

I like reading long Profiles too. I enjoy hearing all about what the character thought about X event. But the thing is, when such has no real meaning, then I'd rather not waste my time, and the time of the person writing the profile, with pointless occurrences that have no bearing on the character. If they -do- have bearing, then, sure, they should be in. If not, then you don't have to.

Those're my two cents.
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[-] The following 4 users Like flammos200's post:
  • Rigley, Harmonic, Loxmardin, Delta
To elaborate. That's not what a profile is intended to be about. It's supposed to describe a character in a way that the player seems fit, and if it's written to the correct length, and is pertinent to what the person has presented their character to be, then it should be approved. Providing history such as "How my character felt about x", unless the player expressly states something about it and -neglects- important information, like if they say "my elf doesn't feel these effects" then you should bring up the stuff about the Sunwell.

And example of this could be taken from real life. I was alive and breathing during many historical events, such as the World Trade center, the Gulf War, the election of many presidents...

But if I was to write a synopsis of who I am, and what my life was like, I would not include this. I can almost see where you're coming from, as this pertains to addiction, however... it's something everyone went through, and effects everybody.

Kind of like how the economy has affected me in real life. But again, the only time I'd even refer to that in a blurb about me, is when it'd -pertain- to me, like talking about losing a job, or some other dramatic experience that made me grow as a person.

Same should go for characters. Profiles are not storylines, so asking people to add things that they do not find relevant to their characters comes off as a weak way to fluff up a profile. It comes off as something -forced-, even if it's not relevant to the character.

Did my character have the addiction? Yep, everyone did. Do I need to add a deep dark story about how I had to injest things and it drove me insane... blah blah blah? No. If it didn't happen, it didn't happen. It shouldn't be forced.

Not to mention, -when- has it been stated that this crap is necessary? I've only found posts to the contrary from GMs, through years worth of crap. I don't know where people are getting this information from that it should be this way, or that it's super important to every elf profile.

Hell, I'd go so far to say that this reaches beyond elf profiles, and goes right into every other sort of profile too. If you're asking people to add the History of their race, or faction, or whatever, and it's a good length and fleshed out the character... then you're asking them to fluff the profile.

That's how it's always been. That's how I've always felt. I'm not a GM anymore, I know, but come on, CoTH hasn't changed -that- ever that I've seen, and I hope that they never do.
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△Move along.△


[-] The following 1 user Likes Harmonic's post:
  • SachikoMaeda
I've been slowly learning the tight-rope the Forum Helpers have to walk. Choosing to mention lore based events is strictly up to the writer of the profile. It's not our job to say "HEY YOU LITTLE NUB WHY DIDN'T YOU MENTION X OR Y WHEN THOSE ARE KEY POINTS IN THEIR LIFE??!?!"

How is it our job to tell people what's important in their character's life? I'll tell how. It's not.

As Rensin said, if we had to sit and write about our own lives, not every major event will be written down. In my case I could sit and write about my life in Louisiana and not mention hurricane Katrina. Someone across the world could yell at me and say "YOU DIDN'T MENTION HURRICANE KATRINA AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO ALL LOUISIANIANS". Well, not true. Hurricane Katrina didn't bother all of Louisiana.

To put it in WoW terms, not every belf was effected by the Trolls, the Second or Third Wars, the Scourge invasion, or the Sunwell sacking. The intake of fel would have been understood.

The profile I approved let me learn that. Our job isn't to chastise and tell people what is and isn't important to their character. We're here to make sure they understand their character and if they so chose to mention lore, that they get their dates right.
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[4:16:27 PM] Cristovao di Silvio ( @CappnRob): theres the bar. then theres the bottom of the barrel, then theres you sachi
[-] The following 1 user Likes SachikoMaeda's post:
  • Wuvvums
I will note that during my trial period as a GM I did ask questions like that on most races, Rensin; though I discovered pretty quickly that that was a flawed pursuit. I mostly did it to try and seem attentive to detail to the other GMs, more than actually attempting to fix a profile in any certain way. So while people can go back through and find me doing an about face, realize that it wasn't out of me trying to do anything more than appear like a better trial.

...And in retrospect, I think I did more harm than good while doing that. It was an needless inconvenience to people RPing their characters and moving the line along in a quicker pace. It was likely pretty frustrating for someone to sit there unapproved and then be knocked back down and told to add a sentence in to make it acceptable. It was just a meaningless blurb I wanted added so I could say I found stuff for people to fix. I am, of course, not making that accusation of anyone else, only to say that I can somewhat understand why some people might feel this is necessary, lore or not.
Marginalizing the use of Fel and the political radicalism that created the Blood Elf movement is the equivilent of marginalizing the Bloodlust or Lethargy of the orcs, the Draenei Slaughter, the X Catastrophe of Human Nation of Your Choice, the Fall of Gnomeregan... you get the idea.

It was a huge movement that shook the very foundations of your character's perceived notions of their world. It. Is. Important. It is not something you can just give a token mention to and that's all there is. Yes, some will be much less affected than others, and no, just because its important doesn't mean you have to write a short novel about how horrible it was (heck, my main man elf Aryeon only has a short paragraph for it), but you SHOULD realize that it's an important part in your people's history. Your whole nation was destroyed by the Scourge, then your leaders imprisoned by who was thought to be their allies, along with pretty much feeling like you wanted to drop dead from arcane starvation. Then your leaders come back from some crazypants alien world and say "hey eat this demon magic it'll make you feel better" and all of a sudden there's political revolution over it, and those who don't accept the new power are outcast as weaklings and traitors.

THEN you pretty much isolate yourselves for almost 7 years rebuilding your society while everyone else kills each other, finally opting to join the Horde over the Alliance because you're -just that mad at them-.

Your stories will always remain...
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... as will your valiant hearts.
Oh, I can guarantee I came off that way too when I did profiles, here and there. But if I did it wrong, I was corrected, and it -has- happened where I was trying to be too harsh on a profile where someone wanted to worship Old Gods, and I wouldn't let 'em.

But these multiple profiles where others have asked people to elaborate on things that are kind of common sense in wow-lore are... many.

If it happens in a race's or group's history, that it's the history for that race or group, and goes great in a guide, however a profile is about a character. Elves have long ears, everybody poops. Lordaeron fell, Sunwell was restored, Orcs were once slaves, Tauren used to migrate, Death Knights like to kill, Gnomes lost their home.

If it the character feels exactly the same about it, like "Sad I lost my home!" or, "Yep, I like to kill", then why do we have to hammer in the fact that it's there?

Edit: Cappy beat me to it, but in the opposite manner.

And again, Captain, I'll bring up the synopsis about my real life, and how things like the world trade center or other historical crap doesn't mean much when I talk about myself.
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△Move along.△


If a character feels complete and follows the lore, then I'd accept it.

If it feels incomplete, I would not accept it.

Does mentioning something that everyone in a race goes through really 'complete' a profile? In my opinion, no.
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[-] The following 4 users Like Xigo's post:
  • flammos200, Loxmardin, Krilari, Jonoth
(03-31-2012, 10:56 AM)Rensin Wrote: Edit: Cappy beat me to it, but in the opposite manner.

And again, Captain, I'll bring up the synopsis about my real life, and how things like the world trade center or other historical crap doesn't mean much when I talk about myself.

The difference is that if the Blood Elf movement was comparable to WTC, it'd be like if WTC happened -all over the United States at the same time-.

The blood elf movement was a radical movement that DID envelop the entire society of elves. And it stemmed from a catastrophe that enveloped all of that society.
Your stories will always remain...
[Image: nIapRMV.png?1]
... as will your valiant hearts.

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