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Quests Chronology and Server Lore
#1
The concepts upon which I am about to relate actually came about when responding to another thread. I choose to withdraw my response, however, as I felt a new topic was introduced that required a thread of it's own.

My questions are in regard to in-game quests and quest chains that happen chronologically within the context of retail, yet are built upon by the lore.

One good example is the quest chain involving Tirion Fordring, in which he (informally) refounds the Silver Hand, but only after the death of his son Taelan (the new Highlord of the Scarlet Crusade) and the death of Grand Inquisitor Isilien. In this chain, what could be considered two major lore characters are killed while another major lore character performs what could be world altering actions.

Later, the dialogue that takes place at Light's Hope refers to the above events as though they had already occurred (as well as the discovery of Balnazzar at the head of the Crimson Legion). Thus setting such events in permanence within the lore, meanwhile the initial quest remaining available for players who did not complete it. This is no doubt a gameplay mechanic, to advance the story without having to remove content from the game, but how it is to be interpreted in roleplay is a subject to question.

There are numerous other quests of this nature, such as those surrounding Van Cleef and the Deadmines, Blackwing Lair, and Ahn'Qiraj (particularly the opening of the gates), along with countless others with less lore significance. Not to mention many more with the release of the Burning Crusade.

Now we speed up to the time period of Conquest of the Horde. Seven years have passed and a deadly plague of true death has cut the world's population in half. But, lorewise, what happened in regard to all these quests that *may* have happened chronologically? Are Taelan, Isilien, and Balnazzar still alive and active in the Scarlet Crusade? Or were they killed as the game chronicled? (speculation indicated that Abbendis (the last of the leaders) was actually trying to rule out the hostility toward other non-scourge factions, which may be unrealistic to leave unaccounted for in the course of 7 years had the other leaders truely been killed, but that's a topic for a different thread)

Getting back on track, with the release of the Burning Crusade, the events of all old world quests were more or less set in permanence by the manual and introduction (which details some of the adventures players took in the original game and cements them into the lore). But at the same time the expansion also introduced numerous other quests carrying the same chronological confusions.

Ultimately, my question is this. Does the server lore exist as though the events of these quests actually happened seven years ago when they would have been available? Or are we to interpret the world as though nothing happened seven years ago (no quests were completed and the lore unaltered by their plots), and all the changes the world underwent as a result were written over (lorewise) by the new plague of server lore?

While it would certainly make more sense to establish server lore as though these quests have been completed and their events passed, we must also take into account that the same quests (although some of which are bugged) are also available to players in the present time of server lore, at least gameplay-wise, as well as many characters that would be chronologically dead are alive and spawned as mobs in the world. I was under the impression these quests and characters were meant to be taken as IC actions and people, but the arguement that some of these quests may be contradictory to current server lore can be made. (Example: Any quest involving Lakeshire would likely be obsolete since the Blackrock Orcs have taken over. While some quests are obviously obsolete as they are directly related to such places, those that are more subtle references to such places (such as deliveries) beg the question: where do we draw the line?)

I'm not entirely sure so here, so I'll leave that up to the GM's. But clarification would be greatly appreciated, whenever you have the time. I haven't forgotten we're on freeze and don't expect a GM response if it is inconvenient, as I'm certain you place priority on more relevant concerns of the server. Regardless, I think this is something the community as a whole should address, possibly setting some guidelines for referencing quests (and the characters surrounding them) in roleplay until GM's can offer a final solution/explanation when it is more convenient for them. It may yet be a simple matter of time before something of this nature causes some major chronological issues within roleplay and storylines.
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#2
Well, I'll just say it as simple as possible. It's a pain in the butt to delete every single quest that doesn't fit with this time period, and it's equally as much of a pain to create ones that do.

So, if you happen across one that doesn't seem to fit the timeline, then it doesn't.
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#3
As much as I appreciate the early response, Rensin, the primary concern of this post was surrounding the longer, more lore altering quest chains that occurred in retail rather than every last one that exists in-game. Did the events of [In Dreams] (think that's what it's called if memory serves) take place before the coming of the second plague? Or is Tirion still in exile and Taelan and Isilien still alive?

There are several others like this (not an infinite amount, but a considerable number of lore altering quests). How much happened lorewise in Outland before the second plague hit and halted everything (such as the ashtongue deathsworn's betrayal, and the Black Dragonflight's dealings with the Dragonmaw . . . the list goes on)

While we may not need to know whether or not some random mercenary killed a few gnolls in Lakeshire, there are larger more significant quest lines that may need to be addressed.

If it would be helpful I could compile a list of the *major* lore altering quest chains to discuss howserver lore takes the events of which into account. Though it would take some time.
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#4
I'm not even sure who those people are. Is that an Alliance-side quest?

If you have a specific question on a specific quest line, I'm willing to try to answer to the best of my ability, but keep in mind that I'm a Horde player, so my knowledge of the Alliance quests is very limited. The general guideline I follow though is that if a character is important to lore or a major instance boss (Illidan, Arugal, etc.) than he/she is still alive.
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#5
First off, this is a long post, and as I have previously stated, GM's: don't feel compelled to respond if it is inconvenient or if you have more important matters to tend to, as this may require a very time consuming response with priority that pales in comparison to other tasks you have before you, as the freeze has not doubt tripled your work load.

EDIT: The quest line is available to both factions. Just to be clear.

A detailed account is in order I suppose. While it was initially meant to be an illustrative example, the nature of the quest line [In Dreams] and the fate of Tirion Fordring as well as the situation in the plaguelands may be relevant as I do play a character with ties to Lordaeron. To be honest, I am quite suprise you aren't familiar with these characters Grakor, as Tirion's history also features prominently in Horde lore, concerning the orc Eitrigg (who can be found in Thrall's chamber as a Horde quest giver).

Essentially Tirion Fordring first arose lore-wise in the novel: Of Blood and Honor, by Chris Metzen (the primary writer of Warcraft lore as well). I, myself have not read the novel but am familiar with the events that occur within.

Since you're unfamiliar with this, here's the shortened version:

Tirion was a Knight of the Silver Hand and master of Mardenholde Keep and Governor in Hearthglen, who came into contact with the orc Eitrigg. The orc saved his life and in return he kept his existence secret and lied to the Alliance about his presence. He was eventually discovered, however, cast out from the Order and exiled. It was also noted that Uther himself oversaw Tirion's stripping of the Light wielding abilities he possessed. (though it's later revealed the light did not abandon him). This happened 1 year before Warcraft 3: Tides of Darkness began. He has since been in exile.

Though it should be noted that prior to this he also played a part in the creation of the Ashbringer, having been present at the meeting in Soutshore with the would-be founders of the Scarlet Crusade: Commander Mograine, Abbendis, Isilien, Doan, Fairbanks, with the other bosses of the Scarlet Monastery appearing as children (Sally Whitemaine, Renault Mograine, Herod the Bully and Little Jimmy Vishas, as well as Tirion's son Taelan) This is detailed in the Old Hillsbrad Foothills wing of Caverns of Time.

The next time he appeared was as a cross faction quest giver in the Eastern Plaguelands (he was there at initial launch of the game). He gives a long chain of quests that start as simple killing missions of local creeps, but eventually reveal his story as well as him having a son: Taelan, who was lied to when Tirion was exiled (as the boy idolized his father), being told his father was killed. After several quests through Stratholme and the like, Tirion reveals that his son Taelan became the new Highlord of the Scarlet Crusade (presumably succeeding Highlord Mograine the Ashbringer). The quest ends with the player (bearing a Scarlet Crusade-friendly disguise) going into Hearthglen and speaking to Taelan (who exists as a level 63 (elite) with the tag Highlord), telling him the truth about his father and convincing him to flee the city to meet with him.

You essentially fight your way out with him but Taelan kills just about everything for you, that is until High Inquisitor Isilien, also a 63 elite (another of the Crusade's three founders, Taelan's mentor, and a former friend to Highlord Mograine, thus a major lore character) arrives with 4 crimson gallants. Taelan is killed by the mobs, but just as this occurs Tirion himself arrives to kill Isilien and what's left of the gallants. Tirion Fordring then proclaims himself the new Highlord of the Silver Hand, announcing his intent to refound the order, the quest ends there with some level 60 blue rewards. (Two major characters die and another makes a potentially world altering move)

Well my question is did all of this happen prior to server lore and the coming of the second plague? As I have noted there are similar events dealing with Molten Core and Blackwing Lair that are chronicled by Blizzard to have occurred in the year between the start of World of Warcraft and the beginning of The Burning Crusade (this questline itself may have been mentioned as well). Years 25 and 26 on the timeline I posted.

But more importantly, after the Naxrammas patch, a dialogue was introduced between members of the Brotherhood of the Light (Argent Dawn) and the Scarlet Crusade in Light's Hope Chapel. The discussion is in regard to the non-hostile members of the Scarlet Crusade that have appeared at the Chapel as ambassadors to the Argent Dawn, with the interest of working together with the newly introduced Scourge Threat of Naxxramas. In the dialogue, the Scarlet Commander Marjhan and Commander Eligor Dawnbringer discuss the scourge threat, talking of the Ashbringer and the like, they reference Balnazzar as being known as a demon. More importantly however the conversation ends with Eligor stating something to the Scarlet Commander along the lines of " . . . or shall I inform Lord Fordring and his knights that your presence here is no longer peaceful."

Thus implying that the events of the quest chain have already occurred lorewise, despite whether or not the player had actually completed the quest. Tirion Fordring himself can be found by traveling north along the river that separates the western from the eastern plaguelands (on the eastern bank). Though Taelan still appears in Hearthglen as he would in retail to tend to those who have not yet completed the chain (unless another GM despawned him, which I doubt)

Again to reiterate the initial point of this post, how are these complex quest chains to be received in accordance with current server lore? As there are long, similarly lore-altering quest chains in Outland that would require equal attention/elaboration as to the current state of the lore and NPC's they are concerned with.

As for references:

Tirion's Wowwiki: http://www.wowpedia.org/Tirion_Fordring
Taelan's Wowwiki: http://www.wowpedia.org/Taelan
Isilien's Wowwiki: http://www.wowpedia.org/Isillien
The Quest, Itself: http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:In_Dreams

Sorry for the long post, again GM's if you don't have the time don't feel compelled to respond. I'd rather see your attention go to something you deem most significant.

Thanks, regardless.
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#6
I know a little about Tirion then...I knew him by his last name, not his first, though I didn't know all of that.

Either way, I would say for the moment would be that those events did not happen, as it would have resulted in the death of an otherwise "important" figure (Tirion's son.) Plus, you know, we don't want the Crusade to be less evil.

If Kretol decides otherwise, I'm sure he'll mention it.
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