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Religion, Spirituality,Gods ans Demons
#16
No, they don't bovel. Their BELIEF allows them power. If it had anything to do with how "Good" they are, then how could their be priests in the Scarlet Crusade?

Don't ask me about the Scarlet Paladins. There is some reason the Naaru give them that power, but who knows why?
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#17
Light -was- not based on the deed but the intetion. That is why the Scarlets worked. Problem now is that with the naaru they must simply have wanted the, to have it.
(02-24-2012, 10:15 AM)Piroska Wrote: Conspiracy. That's all it is; Kret's afraid that your pure, digital awesomeness would crash the server if it were allowed.
(06-14-2013, 05:42 PM)McKnighter Wrote: Bovel, Lord of Beards

Character About Involvement
Causticity Blackbreath Goblin Alchemist -
Telaah Draenei Anchorite Writings of an Anchorite

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#18
Rensin Wrote:Don't ask me about the Scarlet Paladins. There is some reason the Naaru give them that power, but who knows why?
I think that this is a common misconception that a lot of players have. While naaru are embodiment of the Light, they aren't the sole source. Their powers can be given (or taken) by others for use -- much like a battery -- but that doesn't mean that it's the only way that people have access to the Light. The Scarlets don't necessarily have their access to the Light because the naaru condone their actions.

I like to think of the Light as just another source of energy in the Warcraft universe. Because I'm an engineer by training, I automatically apply the law of conversation of energy (energy can be neither created nor destroyed; it can only be transformed). I envision that raw untapped Light power gathered and coalesced until the naaru came into being, rather like how primordial soup was supposedly subjected to a catalyst that allowed for the creation of life. As such, they were born of the Light, consist of the Light, and serve as renewable sources of the Light.

As living creatures, everything has the potential to tap into that energy. However, like anything else that exists in nature, laws exists governing it: people utilizing Holy Light must believe that they're doing good and believe that what they're planning to do will succeed. The draenei are unique in that they were guided towards the Light by an outside source (though this doesn't mean that the same thing couldn't have happened on Azeroth; it's possible that the naaru lent a guiding hand without leaving evidence of their passing). Its use is more common among the humans -- and to a certain extent dwarves -- because of a system of beliefs that guide people into achieving those requirements.

-- which sparks a fun tangent to consider. Which came first: use of the Light or the religion that encourages adherence to the Holy Light of Creation?

A lot of that is speculation, of course, cobbled together with quite a bit of research and also logical leaps.

And because no reply from me would be complete without a quote from a site, from the Light article on WoWWiki we have (emphasis added):
Quote:One source of the Light (though not the only one) is the race of beings known as the Naaru.
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#19
HelveteSong Wrote:Well, Bovel, the Blood Elves (technically the High Elves) started worshipping the sun after leaving the Night Elf society. With the Sundering and all, the Night Elves kicked those arcane magic loving little snots out of their home. The High elves sailed and sailed, finally settling down where Quel'thelas is now. Since the Night Elves worshipped the moon, High Elves got all high and mighty and decided to worship the sun to spite the night elves. As for the fire and the phoenix, I'm not too sure. A parallel to their 'rebirth' of magic or life, perhaps? I can't say for certain.

Sorry just wanted to correct something...at first they landed in western Tirisfall but then something started making elves go insane so then they moved to Quel'thalas, I believe. And Rensin, maybe the Naaru don't truly decide who gets their power? Do we really know the Naaru give it to them? Weren't the first paladins simply priests that decided that their faith alone couldn't combat evil, and decided to use the Light in new ways? This passage helps me believe that...

Quote:Uther was a knight and apprentice cleric to Archbishop Alonsus Faol in the First War, and had been a worshipper of the Holy Light since his youth. Uther met the archbishop when he was simply Bishop Faol, and he served as Uther's spiritual advisor and mentor. The fall of Stormwind made Faol realize that sometimes faith was not enough to combat the evil forces of the world. He decided to create a new order that could fight the enemy with both the gift of Light and martial prowess. He offered Uther a place among them, thus the Knights of the Silver Hand – the paladins were born. At the Alonsus Chapel in Stratholme, Uther became the first of the new order, and their leader. It was a glorious moment for the Alliance and believers of the Holy Light.

This would mean that the paladins are simply priests that can use the Light in combination with martial power. Besides, the Naaru are not all Light you know. Just look at M'uru!

edit and sidenote: I love reading your posts Piroska, so knowledgeable ^_^
[Image: Ml7sNnX.gif]
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#20
http://www.wowpedia.org/Priests


Through a priests beliefs, they are granted power. Most likely it's a holy diety, or symbol, in the case of light wielding priests. In the case of shadow priests, who are usually forsaken or trolls, they worship either the darker loa, or the forgotten shadow.


It's rare for a priest to believe in things that aren't listed, and be granted power. It's their -beliefs- that dictate their power, not actions.


Edit: Food for thought.

Quote:A paladin must be of good alignment and loses all light abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act.

Pulled from the Wiki, in regards to Paladins. Makes you wonder about the scarlets again.
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#21
Aphetoros Wrote:Besides, the Naaru are not all Light you know. Just look at M'uru!
Naaru do undergo a "rebirth" cycle when severely harmed. In this process, they collect Light back into themselves and, as a result, create void energy. We can reapply the Law of Conservation of Energy again for this scenario (huzzah!). If you draw heat into an object, the surrounding area grows colder as a result. If a naaru draws Light into itself, the result is void or the Shadow.

D'ore himself says it best: "Without the void, the Light cannot exist."

That said, M'uru is unique. While other naaru who have been injured have turned into voids (for example, my favorite naaru K'rue), M'uru is the only one to have been subjected to being drained for a period of time. As a result, rather than turning into a void like the other naaru, during the fight he turns into another entity entirely, known instead as Entropius. There's a lot of speculation as to why he of all the naaru we encounter is different, but nothing concrete. Unfortunately.

Fun correlation? There is speculation that Entropius is based on the word "entropy", which is a term used in thermodynamics. Specifically, the Second Law of Thermodynamics (while the quantity of energy in a system will remain consistent, its quality will degrade in time as usable energy is used for productivity, growth, and repair becoming unusable energy) was based in part on the Law of Conservation of Energy. The amount of unusable energy within a system is known as entropy.


Aphetoros Wrote:edit and sidenote: I love reading your posts Piroska, so knowledgeable ^_^
âÂÂ¥


Rensin Wrote:Edit: Food for thought.

Quote:A paladin must be of good alignment and loses all light abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act.
Pulled from the Wiki, in regards to Paladins. Makes you wonder about the scarlets again.
The definition of good is subjective. From our own wik, specifically about good, neutrality, and evili:
Quote:Remember, however, that goodness has no absolute values. Although many things are commonly accepted as good (helping those in need, protecting the weak), different cultures impose their own interpretations on what is good and what is evil.
What is good and what is evil is in the eye of the beholder. As a result, an individual may believe with every fiber of his being that he is doing good. However, others (even the vast majority of others) would perceive his actions as being evil. Remember, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. People can do evil things while believing that what they are doing is actually good.

Regarding the Scarlet Crusade, they are an organization dedicated to the extermination of undead. They are zealots, they use unconventional -- and often brutal -- means, and they're not altogether very nice, but I'm pretty damned certain that they (or at least most of them; a number of members have been leaving the organization in recent years) believe that what they are doing is good and just and right. The vast majority of their members probably are not aware of the corruption that has occurred within the organization (they're headed by a dreadlord in disguise, ouch!) and instead have become so obsessed with their goal that any means are acceptable.

We've established that use of the Light is dependent on belief, which is entirely subjective. This is just another permutation of that requirement.
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#22
Apherotos Wrote:I love reading your posts Piroska, so knowledgeable ^_^

I second that. Anyhow, carry on your lore babbling /nod
Azheron's back in business. For reals.
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#23
Piroska Wrote:
Aphetoros Wrote:Besides, the Naaru are not all Light you know. Just look at M'uru!
Naaru do undergo a "rebirth" cycle when severely harmed. In this process, they collect Light back into themselves and, as a result, create void energy. We can reapply the Law of Conservation of Energy again for this scenario (huzzah!). If you draw heat into an object, the surrounding area grows colder as a result. If a naaru draws Light into itself, the result is void or the Shadow.

D'ore himself says it best: "Without the void, the Light cannot exist."

That said, M'uru is unique. While other naaru who have been injured have turned into voids (for example, my favorite naaru K'rue), M'uru is the only one to have been subjected to being drained for a period of time. As a result, rather than turning into a void like the other naaru, during the fight he turns into another entity entirely, known instead as Entropius. There's a lot of speculation as to why he of all the naaru we encounter is different, but nothing concrete. Unfortunately.

We don't know, however, whether or not the Blood Knights draining him actually made it possible for him to transform like that. What it seems like to me maybe, is in the encounter with M'uru, maybe you shatter him and it releases the void trapped inside? That is how it looks to me anyway. And why is it that Naaru 'darken' in the first place? They become a being of shadow and not Light, so can't we assume that there must be Shadow/Void in them in the first place? Because if they were pure Light then when they enter their 'darkened' state, which is the absence of Light I believe, then they'd be nothing if they were entirely Light. There is even some speculation there are Dark Naaru. Another thing is, in the darkened state, such as D'ore, they attract and consume souls...whether or not they try to I don't believe we know.
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#24
Yes, the WowWiki state that about the Priests as a class. I cannot deny that and it is viable for a game manual but not roleplay. (Just how undead priests can cast holy spells in the game.)

Though I am of the belief that we as roleplayers devote enough time and care enough about lore to see past that scribble on priests. Personally for me it would be obvious that all 'priests' work the same way, that'd mean that each priest can bend a 'godly' force, manipulate it's rules though not willingly. Light is still Light for paladin and priest, then why would it be different for a priest? Are the titulation priest not a proffession but perhaps a bred quality then?

Priests are very different between the cultures aswell. The most clear example would be a troll priest; They devote their life to one Loa. Shadow Hunters are the trolls rligious leaders, witch doctors the 'blessers/buffers' and the priests are almost like... they work with appeasing just one Loa, like representatives of their tribe to that Loa. And these demi-gods are interested in the power they hold and wish for it to grow, a priests faith can then become second-hand when it comes to deciding who shall wield the power. (Spirit politics = <3)


*Note; I sorta remember something about M'uru getting tampered with to turn into Entropius, but could not find anything about it on Wiki. Anyone know a good place with raid quotes?
(02-24-2012, 10:15 AM)Piroska Wrote: Conspiracy. That's all it is; Kret's afraid that your pure, digital awesomeness would crash the server if it were allowed.
(06-14-2013, 05:42 PM)McKnighter Wrote: Bovel, Lord of Beards

Character About Involvement
Causticity Blackbreath Goblin Alchemist -
Telaah Draenei Anchorite Writings of an Anchorite

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#25
*Note; I sorta remember something about M'uru getting tampered with to turn into Entropius, but could not find anything about it on Wiki. Anyone know a good place with raid quotes?

Read this whole thing;
http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:A_Secret_Revealed


http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Auchindoun...

My energies were wholly drained from the crash. I was only a dim speck of void energies when the Prophet Velen and his draenei compatriots lifted my remains and brought them here. After much ceremony, my diminished form was laid to rest within this sarcophagus. I have been regenerating for nearly a thousand years. The cycle is almost complete...

http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:What_the_Soul_Sees

Regrettably, there is nothing that can be done to stop this cycle. It is a facet of the naaru condition - without the void, the Light cannot exist.



Those aren't from the raid, but they're some pretty solid lore sources about the condition of a Naaru as soon as he begins to transform into a 'void'.
"Every gun..."

[Image: Jonah-Hex-Counting-Corpses-Flaming-Leap.jpg]

"...Makes its own tune."


~ The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly ~
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#26
Beltharean Wrote:*Note; I sorta remember something about M'uru getting tampered with to turn into Entropius, but could not find anything about it on Wiki. Anyone know a good place with raid quotes?

Read this whole thing;
http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:A_Secret_Revealed


http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Auchindoun...

My energies were wholly drained from the crash. I was only a dim speck of void energies when the Prophet Velen and his draenei compatriots lifted my remains and brought them here. After much ceremony, my diminished form was laid to rest within this sarcophagus. I have been regenerating for nearly a thousand years. The cycle is almost complete...

http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:What_the_Soul_Sees

Regrettably, there is nothing that can be done to stop this cycle. It is a facet of the naaru condition - without the void, the Light cannot exist.



Those aren't from the raid, but they're some pretty solid lore sources about the condition of a Naaru as soon as he begins to transform into a 'void'.

Doesn't this prove that Naaru aren't wholly beings of Light?
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#27
In my opinion, yes. I think it means that they always have a small amount of shadow -in- them, and as they grow older or weaker, it begins to take them over, and turn them into the ( a? ) void.
"Every gun..."

[Image: Jonah-Hex-Counting-Corpses-Flaming-Leap.jpg]

"...Makes its own tune."


~ The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly ~
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#28
Sorry for not being clear, I know the naaru life and death cycle. They are very important to estimating draenei's time spent on Draenor. What I meant was that something tampered with M'uru for Entropius to take form, a semi-voidwalker, not the death cycle itself.
(02-24-2012, 10:15 AM)Piroska Wrote: Conspiracy. That's all it is; Kret's afraid that your pure, digital awesomeness would crash the server if it were allowed.
(06-14-2013, 05:42 PM)McKnighter Wrote: Bovel, Lord of Beards

Character About Involvement
Causticity Blackbreath Goblin Alchemist -
Telaah Draenei Anchorite Writings of an Anchorite

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#29
If you don't mind me asking, Is a blood elf priest
Therefore limited to an alignment of good or neutral?

I'm under the impression that a blood elf priest cannot be
Evil simply because such an alignment would conflict with
The source of his power - the holy light.

It is my understanding that even a shadow priest would have
This limitation since he uses the holy light to inflict damage.

This leads to anothe question, given a blood elf priest who
Either becomes a priest under false pretenses, or changes
Alignment after being trained, should that character be
Rp'd as not having any priestly abilities at all ?

While technically a priest could harness power from a source
Other than the holy light, I am under the impression that this
Is not allowed ( with the exception of one that turns to fel for power )

Lastly, if I am on the right track, if a priest abandons his faith , can he
Repent later and return to good standing, fully empowered?
- Cepht -

Randian - Sin'dorei Priest, Representative of Greystone Charities
Riley Gillespie aka "Stars" - Unhinged forsaken vagabond with a flare for fire
Alonus - Fallen holy priest with a pet serpent named "Ricky"
Haugus Bach - Forsaken Warlock with an appetite for torture and revenge. Previously a humble shoe maker.
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#30
Bovel Wrote:Sorry for not being clear, I know the naaru life and death cycle. They are very important to estimating draenei's time spent on Draenor. What I meant was that something tampered with M'uru for Entropius to take form, a semi-voidwalker, not the death cycle itself.
We don't know that is why Entropius took form, it could be that (this is how I see it) in the M'uru fight you shatter the crystal, thus bringing forth the shadow inside.

And by the way, Entropius is a Void God, 1000 times more powerful than a voidwalker.
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